Gore-Tex still the best?

[TAFKALVS]

I'd say pit-zips are key with this kind of a jacket, and layering appropriately

Use of pit zips prevent the jacket from breathing effectively because the micro climate is lost. Not to say that they are bad to use, just be aware that once you open them, the magic of the goretex is effectively defeated and you have rendered you $600 uber shell into a $600 nylon poncho.

[Andeh]

Goretex softshell is the same tech as XCR or old Proshell and features a PU layer. Therefore, you must create a microclimate to make the breathability happen. New Goretex pro vents to the outside directly within reason - you can still overwhelm the breathability if you expect too much out of it. But it's much better than XCR/Old Pro Shell.

Thanks, that must be what my OR uses. Not to concerned though, as my legs don't really sweat, and internal/external leg vents should dump heat fine.

[XavierD]

Breath ability is the net affect off all your clothing.

If you put a non breathable mid layer on, it doesn't matter what your jacket is made of.

If you use a high tech fancy membrane but than pair it with an uber heavy face fabric, it won't breath well.

[old goat]

My Neoshell certainly breathes better (and thus is a better shell for cooking dry my N2S tops) but I'm in my 3rd after my 1st and 2nd ones were replaced per warranty after they delammed within a few months. Lauds to Westcomb and REI for honoring their warranties, but my skepticism of all things alleged to be "waterproof/breatheable" persists.

Based on my 40 years of experience -- I got my first GoreTex shell in 1976 and have had dozens since -- all ePTFE and PU alleged "waterproof/breatheable" shells are nowhere close to functionally waterproof after 6 months of hard use. I gotta wonder if those claiming that they are waterproof either get new shells each season or don't use them in rain storms that last more than an hour or so.

In my not quite as long experience Goretex keeps me dry standing around. It breathes well enough exercising in the dry with judicious use of the zippers. Heavy exercise in the rain you get wet from the inside as the fabric wets out, but that's true of everything. It's physics--when the humidity is higher on the outside than on the inside moisture is not going to go from the inside to the inside no how breathable the membrane. The only way I know of to stay really dry in the rain is an umbrella.

[jamal]

I picked up a goretex active shell recently (marmot nano as), am pretty happy with it so far. Very light and breathes well, worked good hiking and xc skiing on some fire roads this week. I wouldn't wear it riding lifts on a cold day, but got it because it should be more versatile than a 3l or proshell type jacket for use in the summer and for active winter type stuff.

[GeezerSteve]

Heavy exercise in the rain you get wet from the inside as the fabric wets out, but that's true of everything. It's physics--when the humidity is higher on the outside than on the inside moisture is not going to go from the inside to the inside no how breathable the membrane.

I know that. Duh. I'm not talking about moisture from inside.

I'm talking about the membrane failing such that rain seeps through it. Every one of the est. 20 GTX or eVent shells I've owned in the past 40 years became an expensive non-waterproof windbreaker, sometimes as soon as a couple months of hard use, usually in less than a year, always in less than 2 years. Sometimes the failure manifests as an obvious delam via visible blisters, sometimes not, but all of them fail. The initial failure usually occurs at the shoulder where backpack straps loads the fabric. I've returned many of them, all of of which were warrantied, but that doesn't do me much good on Day 6 of a 9-day traverse in stormy conditions.

GTX boots are a joke, have always failed within a month or two IME.

[stuckathuntermtn]

Ok, I know hunting guides in AK destroy stuff, Gore Tex or not, but wtf are you doing?

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Ok, I know hunting guides in AK destroy stuff, Gore Tex or not, but wtf are you doing?

Recreating outside a lot. I haven't had good luck with w/b stuff and hard use either.

[GeezerSteve]

Ok, I know hunting guides in AK destroy stuff, Gore Tex or not, but wtf are you doing?

Mountaineering, high routes, ski touring, scrambles, high lakes fishing, a bit of hunting, lots of off trail backpacking. Ya know, mountain travel, i.e., the activities for which this gear is designed.

Back when I worked in the outdoor industry I had a dialogue with an anonymous Gore engineer who acknowledged the fragility of ePTFE membranes and also advised re the huge volume of GTX garments that are returned for membrane failure. The cost of Gore's warranty program is a big reason the stuff is so expensive.

As I said, when I hear someone proclaim that GTX is waterproof -- which, IMV, is pretty damn absolute standard -- I can only surmise that he doesn't get out in the rain much, or gets new gear every year (which is true for some guides, those with spancerships, some shop rats) or doesn't spend much time in prolonged rain storms, so I get how an experienced Rocky Mountain mountain traveler could form the view that GTX is waterproof because IME most interior mountain storms are relatively brief.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

It's waterproof/breathable in the lab or on a rainy day in downtown Seattle on the sidewalk.

[char_]

As I said, when I hear someone proclaim that GTX is waterproof -- which, IMV, is pretty damn absolute standard -- I can only surmise that he doesn't get out in the rain much, or gets new gear every year (which is true for some guides, those with spancerships, some shop rats) or doesn't spend much time in prolonged rain storms,

QFT.

[XXX-er]

"water proof" is a continuim with soft shell on one end and rubberized helly hansen on the other end

As for gortex on the extreme end of things in a 100% wet environment I have a gortex dry suit I use for paddling ww (kokotat probably makes the best) and it is definatley water proof, IME you do stay dryer than a completely water proof coated nylon suit due to sweating over a broader range and the colder the air temp the better a gortex dry suit works

[jono]

My experience with neoshell as used on a Freeride Systems jacket has been that it is much more breathable and slightly less opaque to the wind but has a more hydrophobic DWR (after 15-20 days) than gore-tex has on day 1. The DWR is more important than it gets credit for and it seems like Gore often relies on the membrane too much and suffers in wet weather as a result of wetting out. Obviously the downside of a good DWR is that it's not always going to work like new, but my wettest days in GTX have always come after the outer layer wetted out, at which point moisture only effectively crosses the membrane one way. It's not usually a leak, exactly, it's just that once wet on the outside water can come in but doesn't leave. The physics here is a touch more complicated than absolute humidity comparisons, since your microclimate has a higher temp and therefore a lower relative humidity (at least when it's raining), but for sure a continuous sheen of water on the outside isn't going to let you dry through the membrane. And since it's warmer on the inside some of that water is coming through as vapor, just in the wrong direction.

Face fabrics can be different for all of these and Neoshell perhaps most of all: I would never describe mine as a softshell. So far it's holding up like new, no signs of pilling or anything similar, nor do I expect that--it's (edit: re-checked the tag) nylon, but a tight weave and very reminiscent of the polyester face fabric on a Gore-tex jacket I have put ~100 days on with no surprises (DWR breakdown included; but that jacket would certainly be called a "hard shell"). This neoshell is not some uber-stretchy weave, although it sounds like some are; I know I've handled a couple that seemed stretchier than this. Lifetime durability and DWR are obviously going to be a function of the face fabric not the membrane, and (except for those membranes whose lack of elasticity disallows any stretch) there is little or no reason to expect one membrane (gore, e-vent, neoshell) to be totally unique in the face fabric. And by the same token, what you see for fabric in one brand of jacket/pants represents the choice of that brand, not a fundamental feature of the membrane behind it. As MiCol has pointed out in previous threads, he has a huge range of choices for both inside and outside fabrics in Neoshell; sounds like getting that right is important.

[jono]

FTR, I generally agree with Steve's point about waterproofness being temporary/fading with the DWR. FWIW, so far I have been out in neoshell in the rain on a day which another maggot described as "all time bad" and a few others that were merely miserable; Freeride Systems' neoshell with "new" DWR hasn't let any water through. I plan to do pretty much anything necessary to keep that DWR like new for as long as possible.

[SupreChicken]

I won a Patagonia knife blade jacket last year at a ski movie, it has polartec power shield pro, and it has replaced my gore Tex pro shell marmot for everything but heavy snow or rain. Very breathable so I end up wearing less layers because I don't sweat in it. Even on super windy days or going so fast I scare myself, the wind never cuts through it. Nice and soft too, not stiff and crinkly like the gore...

Big fan as well. Wish it had a longer fit. Looking at strafe options.

[old goat]

I know that. Duh. I'm not talking about moisture from inside.

I'm talking about the membrane failing such that rain seeps through it. Every one of the est. 20 GTX or eVent shells I've owned in the past 40 years became an expensive non-waterproof windbreaker, sometimes as soon as a couple months of hard use, usually in less than a year, always in less than 2 years. Sometimes the failure manifests as an obvious delam via visible blisters, sometimes not, but all of them fail. The initial failure usually occurs at the shoulder where backpack straps loads the fabric. I've returned many of them, all of of which were warrantied, but that doesn't do me much good on Day 6 of a 9-day traverse in stormy conditions.

.

So why do you keep buying the stuff?

[swissiphic]

Northwest b.c. skier here, ski tour a lot in the rain/sleet/wet snow...goretex user for life, for no other reason than the mental game of psychologically deluded into thinking that it breathes better than a rubber rain jacket. In 'normal' wet coast conditions, the stuff gets overloaded pretty quick during heavy exertion/perspiration and the factory dwr seems to break down prit near immediately on ever single garment i've ever purchased. But, I have had some success during the past few years of main body truck comfort by draping the jacket over the pack like a big poncho, so it acts more like an umbrella and the air pumping through provides effective venting and prolongs the time before soaked from sweat feelings.

No improvement in wetness of shoulders and arms though..fabric rests on clothing, wets out, condenses or whatever and makes those areas unhappy.

It all got me thinking though...maybe not the perfect system (which for the record would be a featherweight nasa spacesuit one piece with a built in dehumidifier and temp control air conditioner/heater) but, what if...the jacket shell fabric was physically spaced a certain distance from the body...for example, like a spiral of inflatable air tubes that hold the fabric away from base layers at shoulders and arms at least where the max contact areas would be...with a kind of 'sectional' profile to the tubes so free flowing air could pump and vent the arms and at least allow some air exchange rather than rely on the 'breathability' of the goretex to vent the moisture?

An advanced version could introduce a forced air positive pressure system blowing fresh air into the tubes which would inflate but small pinholes throughout the system would blow cool fresh air into arms/shoulders for mechanical cooling?

And, (not for the 'forced air through the tubes for cooling/venting' configuration) if the jacket is sealed with no vents open would this configuration 'theoretically' allow for that aforementioned microclimate to more effectively allow the shell fabric to breathe...until it wets out and then in that case, at least you could open all pod bay doors please Hal (pitzips, front zipper, etc...) and have an effective air exchange to pump and purge the moisture?

Am I out to lunch?

[Kenny Satch]

if all Gore-Tex is created equal then isn't all about the DWR ?

does it depend on the outerwear companies use of DWR on Gore-Tex or am I wrong and the treatment are all done at the Gore factories ?

[XXX-er]

. Am I out to lunch?

out to lunch is such a harsh term Guido

[tBatt]

I'm a big fan of the Mountain Hardwear Dry.Q Elite. Very waterproof, very breathable.

[Eastcoastdan]

FWIW I'm really digging the 3L Salomon shell I picked up this year. It's last year's model without GTX. I have no idea what it is made of but DWR seems to be holding up to 15 days of hard use. Also breathes noticeably better than the Jeremy Jones 3L Oneill coat I had last year. For uphill touring I wear a BD Alpine Start hoody and wear the Salomon shell for anything else.

[jono]

if all Gore-Tex is created equal then isn't all about the DWR ?

does it depend on the outerwear companies use of DWR on Gore-Tex or am I wrong and the treatment are all done at the Gore factories ?

Gore applies the factory DWR during fabric/laminate manufacture. The face fabric selection I mentioned above is partly theoretical in that sense: clothing will be limited to the options Gore offers. In the case of Neoshell, those options are numerous.

@Swissiphic, highly breathable mid-layers, particularly those that add thickness with a micro-grid etc. do a lot of what you are talking about. There's always a limit to the effectiveness (even with "forced air") but if you want to geek out on the concept, that's an easy start.

[yavench]

Mountain Hardwear shells are really nice and breathe well. Have one of their older stretchy hardshells and its bomber in the wet. I use it at the resort, and my Arcteryx Beta LT in BC.

[old goat]

One thing that really helps with Goretex etc is a non-laminated mesh lining.

[jono]

Dispersion inside is very important for breathing. Without equalizing humidity/temp across the inside of the membrane you get choked (maximum speed) flow in the high temp/humidity regions and less everywhere else. Putting a mesh with a 2-layer laminate is better than nothing, but laminating a dispersion fabric in place (3-layer) sure moves better. And since it doesn't bunch up it usually functions better, at least when combined with a good base and/or mid, which should also be dispersion layers. I only use synthetics, personally.

And maximum hydrophobic at the base layer (polyester usually) helps. If I have to include wool, getting it to the outside is always better--I have a pet theory that moving toward more hydrophilic as you go out (including outer face fabric) is better but I'm not testing it.