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  1. #1
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    Gore-Tex still the best?

    Looking at new outer layer and it seems 3 layer Gore-Tex is the top dog when it comes to protection and, unfortunately cost. Anyone have success with anything else? The toraydelfy fabric looks interesting, seen it on a Stio piece. Suggestions?

  2. #2
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    Jun 2012
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    I like the flylow stuff, their neoshell is pretty durable and offers a lot of protection, I guess I have the 1st compound/labcoat. don't have any experience with the other fabrics they use! and like you said 3 layer gore is also top notch, but less comfy to wear and stiffer compared to neoshell!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
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    146
    I already have a 3-L Goretex Shell, -
    TNF Enzo http://blistergearreview.com/gear-re...ce-enzo-jacket
    most of the time it's not wet enough outside for it's use and I think it's overkill. Also not breathable enough for double duty use doing BC XC skiing.
    I've been looking at Neoshell since it's introduction, decided to try it this year. Went with Eddy Bower First Ascent Neoteric shell -
    http://www.eddiebauer.com/product/me...=men&color=907

  4. #4
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    After several winters with neoshell, alternated with old stuff on goretex, I have no doubt that neoshell is WAY better for breathability and pretty similar for snow/rain insulation, at lest on the alps (dunno under tropical storms).

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by verbier61 View Post
    After several winters with neoshell, alternated with old stuff on goretex, I have no doubt that neoshell is WAY better for breathability and pretty similar for snow/rain insulation, at lest on the alps (dunno under tropical storms).
    Four seasons in the alps when I was working as a rep in various Armada, Westbeach and Treespass jackets with a maximum of 10k/10k... The moment I stopped working and got into my own gear it was a revelation at being dry and not sweating to death... Used a Rab shell for the last few trips and its been prefect, now looking at a decent neoshell as like a lot of people I get far too hot in most things in the alps, what would you recommend for a tall and skinnier person (6'4), most American XL's don't fit me as the arms are too short and the bodys to boxy, its getting harder to find non American cuts in the ski shops in the UK.
    I Came, I Saw, I .... Made A Slight Effort & Then Went Home For Lunch.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
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    534
    My limited experience with neoshell soured me on it but i'll be honest in admitting that i suspect marmots implementation in a pseudo softshell was probably very flawed and a major contributor to my impression. Now it just hangs in closet.

    So for those who like it - thoughts on neoshell wind penetration??
    I have little doubt it breathes better, and stands up to precipitation acceptably well but seems the inevitable tradeoff of breathability is also wind penetration and when i want a shell i want one that blocks wind.
    Again limited experience but eVent seems better in this regard.
    Thoughts??

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    西 雅 圖
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    There are several types of 3 layer GORE-TEX - Active, Pro, C-Knit and standard GORE-TEX 3L. They are all very waterproof, but the breathability varies. Active is comparable to eVent IME (have used both), Pro is not far off, after that the breathability drops off a bit. In wet climates like the PNW, the extra level of waterproofing is a plus, in Europe or the Rockies Neoshell makes a lot of sense. eVent fabrics have no one overseeing quality control since GE bought the rights, it's strictly up to the clothing manufacturer, so lamination protocol and face fabric choice vary a lot - GORE on the other hand is often criticized as being "heavy handed" in their pursuit of quality control and testing (but they deliver).

  8. #8
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    Apr 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcpnz View Post
    My limited experience with neoshell soured me on it but i'll be honest in admitting that i suspect marmots implementation in a pseudo softshell was probably very flawed and a major contributor to my impression. Now it just hangs in closet.

    So for those who like it - thoughts on neoshell wind penetration??
    I have little doubt it breathes better, and stands up to precipitation acceptably well but seems the inevitable tradeoff of breathability is also wind penetration and when i want a shell i want one that blocks wind.
    Again limited experience but eVent seems better in this regard.
    Thoughts??
    In my experience neoshell is better than eVent which requires to be frequently cleaned to work

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
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    Seattle
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordf View Post
    Four seasons in the alps when I was working as a rep in various Armada, Westbeach and Treespass jackets with a maximum of 10k/10k... The moment I stopped working and got into my own gear it was a revelation at being dry and not sweating to death... Used a Rab shell for the last few trips and its been prefect, now looking at a decent neoshell as like a lot of people I get far too hot in most things in the alps, what would you recommend for a tall and skinnier person (6'4), most American XL's don't fit me as the arms are too short and the bodys to boxy, its getting harder to find non American cuts in the ski shops in the UK.
    Rab is the best fit I have found, I am 6'3" 190 with super long arms and wear a Large

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    northern BC
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    still the best for what?

    for ift riding YES, I use gortex and lots layers but for touring soft shell pants in windstopper and lately a marmot neoshell has been my favorite which is working good
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
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    ne pennsylvania
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfa81 View Post
    I like the flylow stuff, their neoshell is pretty durable and offers a lot of protection, I guess I have the 1st compound/labcoat. don't have any experience with the other fabrics they use! and like you said 3 layer gore is also top notch, but less comfy to wear and stiffer compared to neoshell!
    sold my eddie bauer neoshell bibs after skiing in 1 storm.......ass soakage on chairlift. never had that with goretex

  12. #12
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    Mar 2008
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    northern BC
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    Neoshell is more water resistant than shoeller or windstopper but its still just a soft shell so while it breathes better than gortex for touring, I wouldn't use Neo for riding a chair and I don't think any alpine skier should be buying Neoshell
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  13. #13
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    Aug 2011
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    Der Town
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    Neoshell is cold as fuck in the wind. I tried it for a while and went back to goretex for storms and stretch woven for mild days.

  14. #14
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    Jun 2006
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    These are useful data points. I've been thinking about upgrading my XCR stuff, and just so happened to notice the other day that my Theta AR has some early-stage delams. I'm thinking take advantage of that Gore guarantee...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest_Hemingway View Post
    I realize there is not much hope for a bullfighting forum. I understand that most of you would prefer to discuss the ingredients of jacket fabrics than the ingredients of a brave man. I know nothing of the former. But the latter is made of courage, and skill, and grace in the presence of the possibility of death. If someone could make a jacket of those three things it would no doubt be the most popular and prized item in all of your closets.

  15. #15
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    Mar 2011
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    I won a Patagonia knife blade jacket last year at a ski movie, it has polartec power shield pro, and it has replaced my gore Tex pro shell marmot for everything but heavy snow or rain. Very breathable so I end up wearing less layers because I don't sweat in it. Even on super windy days or going so fast I scare myself, the wind never cuts through it. Nice and soft too, not stiff and crinkly like the gore...

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by LightRanger View Post
    These are useful data points. I've been thinking about upgrading my XCR stuff, and just so happened to notice the other day that my Theta AR has some early-stage delams. I'm thinking take advantage of that Gore guarantee...
    Last summer I took my delamed pants into Arcterxy headquarters and got a full credit so IMO wait for summer send it in BUT they gotta be clean and in good shape ...not WORNOUT!
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    310
    I tried Neoshell starting last season, using both the Rab Neo Guide jacket and pants. I also bought my fiance the same jacket (but women's). Both are very lightweight, minimalist designs.

    For touring, the jacket is fantastic. It breaths incredibly well, has been pretty waterproof, and is pretty good at blocking wind. It breathes well enough that we both regularly skin up wearing it over 1-2 layers without opening any vents. I personally have not had any issues with soaking through, but one particularly wet, heavy snow day we noticed afterwards that her shoulders were wetted out. I suspect that was due to her (at the time) Dakine pack straps soaking up snow and melting it. However, we've both noticed the few times we've ridden lifts that the shells are COLD when the wind is howling on chairlifts, even with a 300 wt merino shirt and fleece under.

    I found the Neoshell pants to be less impressive. Even when touring, I noticed the wind problem that the jacket experiences, probably because I wear less layers on my legs. I've also had it wet through on both the knees and butt when doing transitions. On top of that, the fabric isn't very durable, although some of that could be Rab's specific design.

    So, basically I've come to the same conclusions a lot of others have: Neoshell is great for a touring jacket, not so much for lifts. Well vented storm-proof shells are good for touring bottoms if it's dumping or really windy, otherwise softshells are fine.

    I'd also love to try the new Toray Derzimax fabric that Stio, Trew, and others are using, but the bibs I tried on from Trew didn't work with my boots. I will probably try it for a jacket when I wear out my Neoshell. I'm now using a pair of OR White Room pants, which have inner and outer vents and feature a "stretch 3L GoreTex" fabric. Anyone know what exact flavor it is - obviously not Pro, maybe C-Knit?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    still the best for what?
    Good point. Resort skiing. From -15 to mid 20's. Something easily controlled by layering.

    Quote Originally Posted by cinnepa View Post
    sold my eddie bauer neoshell bibs after skiing in 1 storm.......ass soakage on chairlift. never had that with goretex
    Another good point; got to sit on a chair. Gore or other waterproof fabric for ass section.

  19. #19
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    I have found the face fabric of Neo tends to "candyfloss" which might be the price you pay to have a more breathable fabric

    So when it does its time to get a shave you fucking hippie ... so go over the fabric with an electric razor
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by esseff View Post
    Good point. Resort skiing. From -15 to mid 20's. Something easily controlled by layering.



    Another good point; got to sit on a chair. Gore or other waterproof fabric for ass section.
    Which IME is a anaerobic activity followed by sitting on a wet chair for 15 min So then go gore

    I have arcterxy pants and jacket for the lifts but my favorite lift jacket and the one everyone at the hill recognizes is an old MEC gortex /liteloft parka with huge pocket and enough insulation to keep me warmer on the lifts

    Buy the good stuff wash/treat it regularly with DWR and be happy
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
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    Der Town
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    New Goretex Pro is air permeable like Event or Neoshell but features multiple layers of ePTFE instead of a single layer of like Event or a single layer of PU like Neoshell. It is significantly more breathable than Goretex XCR or Pro Shell which both suffered from an additional PU layer that provides better durability at the expense of a significant reduction in Breathability.

  22. #22
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    Mar 2006
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    Missoula, MT
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    The Blister articles on outerwear are quite informative.
    I like Gore Tex Softshell, but sometimes it breaths like a garbage bag. Might also just be old.
    It's a heavy-duty material great for storms, dampness, etc.
    Not all Gore Tex is the same. Not all non GT is bad. I've seen stuff with Gore Tex label that has shit for seems.
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  23. #23
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    Nov 2007
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    My Neoshell certainly breathes better (and thus is a better shell for cooking dry my N2S tops) but I'm in my 3rd after my 1st and 2nd ones were replaced per warranty after they delammed within a few months. Lauds to Westcomb and REI for honoring their warranties, but my skepticism of all things alleged to be "waterproof/breatheable" persists.

    Based on my 40 years of experience -- I got my first GoreTex shell in 1976 and have had dozens since -- all ePTFE and PU alleged "waterproof/breatheable" shells are nowhere close to functionally waterproof after 6 months of hard use. I gotta wonder if those claiming that they are waterproof either get new shells each season or don't use them in rain storms that last more than an hour or so.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
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    148
    I have a new gortex pro jacket, in the PNW and am extremely active on any day. Layering is key, but it's my favorite shell.

    I haven't used a comparable 3 layer, but other shells and coats... I'd say pit-zips are key with this kind of a jacket, and layering appropriately

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    The Blister articles on outerwear are quite informative.
    I like Gore Tex Softshell, but sometimes it breaths like a garbage bag. Might also just be old.
    It's a heavy-duty material great for storms, dampness, etc.
    Not all Gore Tex is the same. Not all non GT is bad. I've seen stuff with Gore Tex label that has shit for seems.
    Goretex softshell is the same tech as XCR or old Proshell and features a PU layer. Therefore, you must create a microclimate to make the breathability happen. New Goretex pro vents to the outside directly within reason - you can still overwhelm the breathability if you expect too much out of it. But it's much better than XCR/Old Pro Shell.

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