Blizzard Cochise too stiff for me?

**nickwm21** · 02-22-2018, 08:15 AM

I sold my 2014 193s when I moved away from driving distance to mammoth. There is no better Chair 23 ski.

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**mtskibum16** · 02-22-2018, 10:00 AM

My 2014 (blue) 185 Cochise had an unfortunate and early end before I got nearly enough time on them, but I was really digging them. I agree they were killer in spring conditions. I still have a single good ski if any of you hoarders want one.

**gregorys** · 02-22-2018, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by toast2266

Did Volkl really have that much trouble selling the metal Katanas? I feel like I saw those things around pretty often. Purely based on lift line observations, I think I saw the metal Katanas more frequently a few years ago than I see the new carbon Katanas these days.

The Monsters seem like a somewhat different beast. Compared to the Katana or Cochise, it's a bit more traditional, a bit less accessible, and a bit less versatile, which all seem like traits that really limited its audience.

^^ This.

I've not been on the Monster 108's, but I have the 98's. Cool. Pretty plush ride - through chopped up snow, rocks, trees etc. [Yeah, they blow up everything.] But after that, what? IMO, there wasn't a lot more to them. I have a lot more fun on my MX98's. [Five turns per run, instead of three.]

While I don't have the Cochise, I've got one of the Dakota's from when they had metal. I'm around 150#, so the lighter core is probably a good thing for me.

The Cochise/Dakota has enough hold to handle firmer days, and enough float to manage modestly deep days. But it's easy to break loose and pivot. The Monsters seem pretty traditional, and not nearly as easy to break free. [At least on the 98's.] The Cochise kills in variable snow. It's a total hoot on spring days, no matter how mushy it gets.

IMO, I can't think of any ski I've been on that covers so many conditions and still performs so very well.

I've got the MX98, the Cochise and a OG Bodacious. Really the Cochise can handle 90% of my days fine. The MX98's come out on icy groomer days, and the Bo's when it's deep. But there's really just nothing I couldn't do just fine on my Cochise. It might not be a ton of fun, but it would get the job done. I don't think I can say that about the Monsters or most any other ski I've tried.

The Cochise is so successful because it does so much so well, and is a charger on top of all that. There aren't many other skis out there that I can recall that come anywhere close to matching that goal.

**dcpnz** · 02-22-2018, 01:07 PM

This love for the Cochise has me thinking I ought to try them. Always shied away because as a lighter guy I generally don't like "charger" skis that are loved by much heavier folks . And also I really disliked the Bonafide.

**counterfeitfake** · 02-22-2018, 01:39 PM

They feel pretty similar to the Bonafide.

**Bandit Man** · 02-22-2018, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by dcpnz

This love for the Cochise has me thinking I ought to try them. Always shied away because as a lighter guy I generally don't like "charger" skis that are loved by much heavier folks . And also I really disliked the Bonafide.

My buddy disliked the 180 Bonafides but loves his 1st Gen 177 Cochise...

**TaosNH** · 02-23-2018, 08:50 PM

I was intimidated by the Cochise (‘12) at first, coming from Blogs, but I’ve been on them for the last 4 seasons, and I am fully converted. I love being able to rail at high speed and shut them down if I need to. Aside from finding another pair of the same year and size (185), what skis that are out now are comparable? Wren 108?

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**skibrd** · 02-24-2018, 12:12 AM

I should of kept my Cochise. They lost out when I realized the 192 cm Cochise, Pro Riders and 202 cm Ranger 108s slightly over lapped. Truth is they didn’t at all. Cochise fit a perfect niche where they are lighter then the Pro Rider for hiking and more maneuverable then the Rangers. Maybe next year I’ll get back on a pair...

**Banh Mi** · 02-24-2018, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by gregorys

^^ This.

I've not been on the Monster 108's, but I have the 98's. Cool. Pretty plush ride - through chopped up snow, rocks, trees etc. [Yeah, they blow up everything.] But after that, what? IMO, there wasn't a lot more to them. I have a lot more fun on my MX98's. [Five turns per run, instead of three.]

While I don't have the Cochise, I've got one of the Dakota's from when they had metal. I'm around 150#, so the lighter core is probably a good thing for me.

The Cochise/Dakota has enough hold to handle firmer days, and enough float to manage modestly deep days. But it's easy to break loose and pivot. The Monsters seem pretty traditional, and not nearly as easy to break free. [At least on the 98's.] The Cochise kills in variable snow. It's a total hoot on spring days, no matter how mushy it gets.

IMO, I can't think of any ski I've been on that covers so many conditions and still performs so very well.

I've got the MX98, the Cochise and a OG Bodacious. Really the Cochise can handle 90% of my days fine. The MX98's come out on icy groomer days, and the Bo's when it's deep. But there's really just nothing I couldn't do just fine on my Cochise. It might not be a ton of fun, but it would get the job done. I don't think I can say that about the Monsters or most any other ski I've tried.

The Cochise is so successful because it does so much so well, and is a charger on top of all that. There aren't many other skis out there that I can recall that come anywhere close to matching that goal.

I find the 184 Monster 98s very easy to ski. Feels like a 20m turn radius, and I can pretty much heartcarve them. But you are right, the cochise are more maneuverable with full rocker, and float better. However the Katanas float MUCH better than the Cochise, have better edge hold, a slightly higher speed limit and less of a wheelie-factor. Katanas are less maneuverable though. I feel the cochise really excel in crud bumps, which happen a lot at some resorts. They are so easy to pivot but still stiff enough to charge hard. I have skied the cambered cochise, I didn’t like them as much as the OGs.

The 191 Monster 108s also arent that hard to ski. Not at 200lbs at least.. I ski bumps with them no problem. They are stiff and heavy in hand, but they dont feel like planks on snow. Less planky skiing than 191 Wrens or Supergoats, which are actually softer and lighter, but feel more locked in.

When it’s not as bumped out on the hill, I dont like all the maneuverability that the cochise offer. They feel a lot looser than the aforementioned skis, and when I’m ripping around at high speed in smoother surfaces, I dont want to be THAT loose.

**skibrd** · 02-24-2018, 01:50 PM

Cochise isn’t full rocker...

**Banh Mi** · 02-24-2018, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by skibrd

Cochise isn’t full rocker...

Whoops, flat camber. It sure feels like full rocker though.

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**gregorys** · 02-26-2018, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

Whoops, flat camber. It sure feels like full rocker though.

Yeah, it sure doesn't feel cambered at all.

And I just keep coming back to how much I like it.
Yesterday was a pretty deep day on Hood. Like ~36" in 48 hours, and 17" just during the day.
I started the day at 9a on my Bo's. But most places didn't seem deep enough to really justify them. [The snow was kinda odd - not sure if it was wind-packing, crystal shape or what, but it just didn't _seem_ as deep as I expected.]

I was kind of hating the weight penalty, and places where it got rutted and troughed out, or big tight bumps were less than pleasant.

At noon, I decided to go to the Cochise. I figured I could go back if I wanted, but thought I'd try it.

And it rocked. Sure it wasn't super floaty, but I could drive them seriously hard. Even driving them from the front of the boots wasn't a problem. I was completely knackered by 7p, and decided to go home before I hurt myself - but the Cochise really rocked for such a deep day.

If I ever got rid of them, I can't imagine what I'd replace them with.

**Skidog** · 02-26-2018, 12:23 PM

Started Sunday at Alta on my R2 115's had the cochise in the car. Took a few runs and headed to the car since i havent had a chance to see how the cochise would do in pow (only my second day on them). 11" of blower at Alta. Got a few good mostly untracked runs on them....float just fine for me (maybe if it was uber deep i'd reach for something else). Few runs in cut up soft snow..they truck..no deflection, easy to swing around. For sure these are the daily driver i've been looking for. Wish I hadnt waited so long to get on a pair.

**gramboh** · 02-26-2018, 06:19 PM

I dunno, I have 2013 Cochise mounted on the line with S916's and find them awful in powder compared to 186 Renegades (duh) and 187 Hojis. The Cochise just do not float at all for me, but I'm 210lbs so maybe that's why. Awesome all mountain/versatile ski, but if there's a bit of new snow I'd rather be on Renegades and deal with their worse variable/hardpack performance.

**Banh Mi** · 02-26-2018, 07:49 PM

Have you guys also skied the gunsmokes, rustler 10 or 11? I liked the Gunsmoke a little more than the Cochise. Both were very good skis though.

What are the 2019 full rocker/flat camber charger skis?

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**Self Jupiter** · 02-26-2018, 07:53 PM

^194 4frnt Devastators kick ass

**gregorys** · 02-26-2018, 08:20 PM

I just happen to have a 2013 Dakota/Cochise and a 2018 Cochise [the orange ones].

I haven't skied the '18 Cochise, so I can't opine on differences in how they ski, but the camber on the 2018 is a lot more than the camber on the 2013.

The 13 is, I would guess, 2mm or less. The '18 is way more; 6-8mm, perhaps.

Blister is claiming 2mm camber - I'm not sure how they measure it - but it looks like a whole lot more to me. It flexes down to the same as the Dakota pretty easily, but the Dakota goes flat with almost no pressure.

But all that might simply be cosmetic and the differences in how they ski are essentially nil, but I was rather surprised.

I took some pics, though I don't know how well they will do in showing the difference. If anyone is interested, I'm glad to share.

If/when I get to ski the 18, I'll perhaps follow-up with my impressions of one vs the other.

**toast2266** · 02-26-2018, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by Betelgeuse

Have you guys also skied the gunsmokes, rustler 10 or 11? I liked the Gunsmoke a little more than the Cochise. Both were very good skis though.

What are the 2019 full rocker/flat camber charger skis?

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Rustler 10 and 11 are both a lot softer, and a lot lighter than the cochise. Never skied the gunsmoke, although my impression is they're a somewhat heavier version of the 10.

The 10 and 11 aren't bad skis by any means - they're both fantastic in their own particular ways. But the cochise is a good bit chargier than either of them. I'd definitely prefer the 11 for actual pow days though.

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**Skidog** · 02-26-2018, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by gramboh

I dunno, I have 2013 Cochise mounted on the line with S916's and find them awful in powder compared to 186 Renegades (duh) and 187 Hojis. The Cochise just do not float at all for me, but I'm 210lbs so maybe that's why. Awesome all mountain/versatile ski, but if there's a bit of new snow I'd rather be on Renegades and deal with their worse variable/hardpack performance.

6'3", 200lbs here. 185"s line mount. Floated fine for me, I'm not tremendously picky, and prefer a skinnier ski even in very deep. Up til recently I been on a Salomon shogun, and I liked it better even in 20+ than fatter rocker skis. That may be why I liked the Cochise. Where I really enjoyed them was the more cut up, variable pow. They just ate it up. So surely not a pow ski, plenty good enough for me to grab it more often than not.

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**Banh Mi** · 02-27-2018, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by toast2266

Rustler 10 and 11 are both a lot softer, and a lot lighter than the cochise. Never skied the gunsmoke, although my impression is they're a somewhat heavier version of the 10.

The 10 and 11 aren't bad skis by any means - they're both fantastic in their own particular ways. But the cochise is a good bit chargier than either of them. I'd definitely prefer the 11 for actual pow days though.

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The gunsmokes were softer than cochise too, but they still had a pretty darn high speed limit.

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**Skidog** · 03-05-2018, 06:54 PM

Rope drop day at Alta. Settled 25" with 7" new overnight. The 1st Gen Cochise have now become my new daily driver. I think I'll grab them even when it's deeper than you'd think. They ski the cut soft snow so well and are quick when needed. Float plenty well for me in pow. In it, not as much "on" it.

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**JayPowHound** · 03-05-2018, 09:54 PM

Love my 2013 185s!!

They are effortless through chopped up snow, therefore perfect for most EC resort days with new snow.

Agreed that the tails are stiff for hardpack bumps or really tight trees, but there are other skis for that.

Very happy carving them from a mid stance. When the groomers are good I probably ski faster on the Cochise than I do on anything else (dont own a GS ski..)

Unfortunately mine are mounted with the dinosaur MFD plates, and therefore heavy as fuck. I keep thinking I should pull them off and re-mount, but the damn things are so long I will be left with holes way ahead of my toe.. not to mention they have a large duke mount in them already (I would be a small.)

I think I need another pair.

Anyone selling???

**gramboh** · 03-06-2018, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by JayPowHound

Love my 2013 185s!!

They are effortless through chopped up snow, therefore perfect for most EC resort days with new snow.

Agreed that the tails are stiff for hardpack bumps or really tight trees, but there are other skis for that.

Very happy carving them from a mid stance. When the groomers are good I probably ski faster on the Cochise than I do on anything else (dont own a GS ski..)

Unfortunately mine are mounted with the dinosaur MFD plates, and therefore heavy as fuck. I keep thinking I should pull them off and re-mount, but the damn things are so long I will be left with holes way ahead of my toe.. not to mention they have a large duke mount in them already (I would be a small.)

I think I need another pair.

Anyone selling???

I've gotta think they would ski much much better without the massive MFD plate creating a dead spot. I'd pull the plates and plug the holes and remount flat with alpine bindings.

**ghosthop** · 03-06-2018, 09:43 PM

Wasatchback/couchsending was teasing in the blizzard thread that they're thinking about updating the current cochise, I hope he's following this thread.

Personally, I thought the devastator leaves something on the table which I always attributed to the difference between full rocker and tip/tail rocker w/ flat camber. This past weekend at the really Big reminded me why I love my bodacious so much and not once did I ever wish for a different ski. Pretty incredible to have a ski that inspires confidence on steep chalk at the top of the Big Couloir, felt totally composed ripping wide open turns during party laps down the Wave, and still left enough in the tank to hotdog through the southside bumps at the end of the day.

I would love the opportunity to A/B w/ OG Cochise, gunsmoke, and rustler.

**gregorys** · 03-27-2018, 02:08 PM

So, a quick comparison to the 17-18 Cochise.

I managed to score a pair of the 17/18 Cochise new. Being a cheap bastard, I sold them to a friend locally, and pocketed a few bucks instead of using them myself. I already have a pair of the Dakota's from the year(s) they put metal in them[13/14, IIRC].

I went the Dakota route, since I couldn't find a cheap pair of Cochises. The reviews all say they ski, essentially, identically. Now that I've defended my manliness in buying a pair of "girlie" skis - lets get on with it.

I can't say enough good things about the Dakota/Cochise.
- I really love the pretty flat camber underfoot
- Super quick, effortless pivots - makes it easy to bleed speed even in tracked out crud after airing something. Strongly related, to the flat underfoot.
- They float well enough - at least at the speeds I ski (which definitely isn't slow) As I noted up-thread - I had them out in a 3'+ new day and had no complaints. They were never on top, but never felt they had a problem with tip dive. [I'm ~140-150# on a 177 - for reference.)
- They seem to eat up bumps and impacts in a way that's super effective. They aren't as "damp" as some skis (Monster/Kastle for example), but they make the impacts a lot more manageable. Fun even.

Ok. So - that new pair. Well the friend I sold them to let me get a few hours on them after he skied the "new" off them. I was able to step off the Dakota and on the the Cochise, so it's truly an A/B test.

Here's my take.
Float: I wasn't able to get them into really deep stuff, so I can't say for sure what the float will be - but it really didn't seem substantially different. I'd really expect them to float about the same.

Camber/Pivot: There's definitely more camber underfoot. And on the good side, that gives them more bite. A few places I was skiing were harder and chundery. The 17/18 would provide a more confident edge, and seemed to eat it up substantially better than the Dakota. Not that the Dakota was terrible - it was all completely manageable - but I'd feel more confident stomping through it at full speed on the 17/18 than I would the older version.

But the flip side is that breaking the tails loose and bleeding speed is a little more touchy on the 17/18. Still not bad, but not as effortless. That means dropping an air off something and then perhaps being marginally in control, I'd feel substantially better on the old version, instead of the 17/18. I'd feel more confident of being able to drop some speed and ride out of it, rather than creating a spectacular yard-sale under the lift line.

I didn't feel that the "carbon" or any of the other changes were really worth noting. The new ones aren't less or more "chattery" or twitchy. Basically I'd say - the 17/18 has more bite, less slarve. Since I've got skis I'll use when I need more bite, that's a feature I prize less. So, all things equal, I'd probably get the old Cochise instead of the new. And if we're talking a difference in price, I'd be going with which-ever one gave be better value.

HTH
-Greg