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  1. #1
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    What is the avalanche control share of the dynamite market?

    That's all. Such questions trouble me. I didn't bother searching for an answer. Conversation is more fun though any links are welcome.

  2. #2
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    Minuscule compared to mining. What I was told when I was working as a pro patroller doing avalanche work was that the industry threatened to cut off access due to the relatively high accident rate of avalanche mitigation activities in the 90's. There weren't many accidents but the market share is so small that it wouldn't really effect the bottom line of the explosives industry while eliminating some liability.
    There's nothing better than sliding down snow, and flying through the air

  3. #3
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    I was told by a patroller at Moonlight Basin (rip) (not the patroller, the name for a sweet ski area that is now part of Big Sky) that it wasn't dynamite. Pentalite? Different recipe, I guess.
    Anyway, that's what 1 guy told me one time. Putting in a new road bed somewhere probably uses about what Big Sky uses in a season.
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  4. #4
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    PETN, or Pentaerythritol tetranitrate cast primers is what is most commonly used. We would use ANFO, or Ammonium Nitrate 25-50 lbs at a time for bigger booms. ANFO is the most commonly used explosive for mining and excavation.
    There's nothing better than sliding down snow, and flying through the air

  5. #5
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    What is the avalanche control share of the dynamite market?

    As stated on the discussion in the Squaw gondy thread, I heard from a patroller Sugar Bowl a while back that they're the last hill in the country to use actual sticks of dynamite.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest_Hemingway View Post
    I realize there is not much hope for a bullfighting forum. I understand that most of you would prefer to discuss the ingredients of jacket fabrics than the ingredients of a brave man. I know nothing of the former. But the latter is made of courage, and skill, and grace in the presence of the possibility of death. If someone could make a jacket of those three things it would no doubt be the most popular and prized item in all of your closets.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by beaterdit View Post
    Minuscule compared to mining. What I was told when I was working as a pro patroller doing avalanche work was that the industry threatened to cut off access due to the relatively high accident rate of avalanche mitigation activities in the 90's. There weren't many accidents but the market share is so small that it wouldn't really effect the bottom line of the explosives industry while eliminating some liability.
    A sort of accurate summation. (not being critical) To flesh it out a bit.

    The "High Rate" of accidents was exactly one fatality. That is a much lower fatality rate than explosive related accidents in other areas of the blasting industry except when compared to the amount of pounds used VS fatalities.

    What really seemed to bother the members of the Explosives Manufacturing Industry was how we used their product. The entire idea of having a fuse train, lighting it (and thereby losing control of when it detonates) and throwing it to a spot ran totally against their experiences. There was work done on alternate methods of initiation but none where economically or practically better than cap and fuse.

    I was intimately involved in the accident at Big Sky and what happened afterwards. What we did was develop a tightly written SOP for explosives handling and especially training that was eventually adopted by the NSAA and is now industry standard.

    I recall the President of Ensign Bickford ( also RIP, the company, not the man) standing before us and telling us that what the entire avalanche industry uses in 10 years doesn't amount to a decimal point VS what all other uses are in 1 year. These days there are essentially 1 or 2 manufacturers of explosives left due to consolidation in the business.

    And finally, there are some areas that still use Gelatin Dynamite, some use emulsion products but most areas rely on PETN.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

    "Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"

  7. #7
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    ^^^Definitely a lot more experience than me.
    There's nothing better than sliding down snow, and flying through the air

  8. #8
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    JW FTW....

    Quando paramucho mi amore de felice carathon.
    Mundo paparazzi mi amore cicce verdi parasol.
    Questo abrigado tantamucho que canite carousel.


  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunion View Post
    lighting it (and thereby losing control of when it detonates) and throwing it to a spot
    That's so 1930. get with the times.

    "Can't you see..."

  10. #10
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    Chuck Jones’ Rules for Writing Road Runner Cartoons



    Jones' rules, first made public when he published them in his 1999 autobiography Chuck Amuck: The Life and Times of an Animated Cartoonist, are probably pretty familiar to animation students and Road Runner and Wile E. Coyote fanatics.They are a fascinating testament to the need for clearly defined systems within a wacky creative process.

    Fun fact: In an interview for the book Hollywood Cartoons: American Animation in its Golden Age, Michael Maltese, a writer who worked for Jones on the Roadrunner series, said that he had never heard of these rules.

    Here's a slightly longer version of the rules that Jason Kottke shared a few years back:

    1. The Road Runner cannot harm the Coyote except by going "meep, meep."

    2. No outside force can harm the Coyote -- only his own ineptitude or the failure of Acme products. Trains and trucks were the exception from time to time.

    3. The Coyote could stop anytime -- if he were not a fanatic.

    4. No dialogue ever, except "meep, meep" and yowling in pain.

    5. The Road Runner must stay on the road -- for no other reason than that he's a roadrunner.

    6. All action must be confined to the natural environment of the two characters -- the southwest American desert.

    7. All tools, weapons, or mechanical conveniences must be obtained from the Acme Corporation.

    8. Whenever possible, make gravity the Coyote's greatest enemy.

    9. The Coyote is always more humiliated than harmed by his failures.

    10. The audience's sympathy must remain with the Coyote.

    11. The Coyote is not allowed to catch or eat the Road Runner.
    http://mentalfloss.com/article/62035...unner-cartoons
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest_Hemingway View Post
    I realize there is not much hope for a bullfighting forum. I understand that most of you would prefer to discuss the ingredients of jacket fabrics than the ingredients of a brave man. I know nothing of the former. But the latter is made of courage, and skill, and grace in the presence of the possibility of death. If someone could make a jacket of those three things it would no doubt be the most popular and prized item in all of your closets.

  11. #11
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    Very informative, enlightening and entertaining without digressions or attack. Must be the holiday spirit at work, even here at TGR. And to all, a good night.

  12. #12
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    When my son was patrolling they always used company packs for control work, because your personal pack would trigger TSA alarms if it had once had explosives in it.
    He had a picture of a pack fully loaded with bombs on his cell phone. I thought that was a bad idea.
    The Russians don't use explosives at Sochi and other ski areas--afraid they'll fall into the wrong hands or be used for the wrong purpose. Which is why someone was killed a year or two ago by an avalanche from above while skiing on piste at Sochi.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    When my son was patrolling they always used company packs for control work, because your personal pack would trigger TSA alarms if it had once had explosives in it.
    I have an acquaintance who works with explosives for construction, mining and geological surveys. He says he has long since learned to arrive 8 hours early for any flight. His job title alone, combined with his brown skin and foreign sounding name usually leads to extra screening and interrogation.
    ::.:..::::.::.:.::..::.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by raueda1 View Post
    Very informative, enlightening and entertaining without digressions or attack. Must be the holiday spirit at work, even here at TGR. And to all, a good night.
    A little thread drift : Could some of you 'trollers refresh us on the dud retrieval procedure? I kind of remember that sounding like a scary deal.

    Or, I could digress into personal grudges/attacks, politics, race, climate change, religion, pit bulls, etc. You know, in the spirit of the season and all.
    "The two best times to fish is when it's rainin' and when it ain't." - Rancid Crabtree

    "never buy anything you can't fuel with a salami sandwich" - XXX-er

  15. #15
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    It isn't as bad as it sounds.

    Depends on the State, but in general the industry standard is.

    Wait one hour before approaching an unexploded charge.

    If there are any signs of visible smoke wait one hour after no signs are visible.

    When you do approach the charge and and locate it, immediately disarm the charge by separating the cap and fuse from the charge and transport them separately in a safe manner.

    When in a safe location destroy the cap and fuse assembly after examination to determine the cause of the failure, generally the failure is caused by poor assembly, poor manufacture or both. The charge can be re-used.

    To destroy the cap and fuse, tape another cap to the unexploded cap and detonate in a safe location.

    Hand charges can be destroyed in place by placing another charge directly next to the dud, they must be pretty much touching. It can be surprisingly difficult to destroy a charge by tossing another charge along side.

    On occasion a PETN charge my be ignited by the fuse train and will burn. They burn fairly vigorously once they get going. Eventually they will explode.

    Cap and fuse blasting is pretty simple but things can go wrong and good training is essential.
    Last edited by Bunion; 12-18-2015 at 06:38 AM.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

    "Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"

  16. #16
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    ^^^^^^^^^^ Thanks.
    "The two best times to fish is when it's rainin' and when it ain't." - Rancid Crabtree

    "never buy anything you can't fuel with a salami sandwich" - XXX-er

  17. #17
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    A full control day at my mountain means we will go through 85 kg (~180lbs) of product. We used "dynamite" until last season when we started using an emulsion product. Makes for less headaches, and easier to prime.

    I have experienced zero duds in the 10+ years/almost 500 shots, of blasting, until last weekend, when we had three in one day. Our procedure is to wait one hour or manufacturer's recommendation. Then approach dud with a new charge and place it next to without actually disturbing the dud. The scariest part in my mind, is that you have to ski into an avalanche path with a live bomb, a dud, and then light it up and ski out. Better hope it doesn't slide just after you light the fuse... We will typically rope up for that situation.

    Two users light explosives and throw them, and the other user group is trying to kill the bad guy...

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by snoboy View Post
    Then approach dud with a new charge and place it next to without actually disturbing the dud. The scariest part in my mind, is that you have to ski into an avalanche path with a live bomb, a dud, and then light it up and ski out. Better hope it doesn't slide just after you light the fuse... We will typically rope up for that situation.
    Talk about a goddamn nightmare situation! Avy burial/search with two unexploded bombs?!

    Unrelated, but out of curiosity, what type of situation would warrant a charge placed on a bamboo pole vs one thrown into the snow?
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDingleberry View Post
    pissing in a sink? fucking rookies. Shit in an oven, then you'll be pro.

  19. #19
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    Some times they can effect a wider area if the detonation is above the snow
    “I have a responsibility to not be intimidated and bullied by low life losers who abuse what little power is granted to them as ski patrollers.”

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by monkeywrenchMoose View Post
    Talk about a goddamn nightmare situation! Avy burial/search with two unexploded bombs?!

    Unrelated, but out of curiosity, what type of situation would warrant a charge placed on a bamboo pole vs one thrown into the snow?
    You get much more concussive force on the snowpack from an airblast than a charge that is in the snow. Many ski areas use bomb trams to achieve this. Rope attached to a pulley on each side of a couloir, hang charge from rope, roll charge to the middle for max effect.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by snoboy View Post
    A full control day at my mountain means we will go through 85 kg (~180lbs) of product. We used "dynamite" until last season when we started using an emulsion product. Makes for less headaches, and easier to prime.

    I have experienced zero duds in the 10+ years/almost 500 shots, of blasting, until last weekend, when we had three in one day. Our procedure is to wait one hour or manufacturer's recommendation. Then approach dud with a new charge and place it next to without actually disturbing the dud. The scariest part in my mind, is that you have to ski into an avalanche path with a live bomb, a dud, and then light it up and ski out. Better hope it doesn't slide just after you light the fuse... We will typically rope up for that situation.

    Two users light explosives and throw them, and the other user group is trying to kill the bad guy...
    Out of curiosity, you don't attempt to reduce the hazard of a slope you felt was potentially unstable before venturing out on to it to get rid of that dud?

    Fuck that shit!

    If I have a dud on a slope I felt needed a shot there is no way in hell I would go out there just to get rid of the dud without shooting that slope with a cover shot first.

    If the dud gets lost in a subsequent slide its specific gravity will probably bury it so deep in the debris it will not be much of a problem and can be searched for in the summer. But again, every program has different parameters.

    I have never, ever liked the shot on a stick method of air blasting a slope.

    Studies have shown that a shot on the surface is 90% as effective as one that is 1 meter above the snow. So in many cases we use a charge belay device (P-cord) tied to the charge.

    You toss it and then pull it to the surface. And if you feel you need that extra 10%, shoot a double.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

    "Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by snoboy View Post
    I have experienced zero duds in the 10+ years/almost 500 shots, of blasting, until last weekend, when we had three in one day. Our procedure is to wait one hour or manufacturer's recommendation. Then approach dud with a new charge and place it next to without actually disturbing the dud. The scariest part in my mind, is that you have to ski into an avalanche path with a live bomb, a dud, and then light it up and ski out. Better hope it doesn't slide just after you light the fuse...
    Talk about a shitty way to go...ride out there to place 2nd bomb, trigger slide, survive slide and think I'm one lucky bastard then boom. Maybe should've slept in that day.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunion View Post
    If I have a dud on a slope I felt needed a shot there is no way in hell I would go out there just to get rid of the dud without shooting that slope with a cover shot first.
    this.

    "Better hope it doesn't slide just after you light the fuse..."

    I would take issue with this risk management plan.

  24. #24
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    Some visual aids from the San Juans:











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