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  1. #1
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    Swiss ski resort refrigerating its glacier

    This comes from msnbc.com

    Melting glacier gets sheet to reflect heat
    Swiss project can only cover a tiny spot



    Andreas Meier / Reuters
    A white plastic blanket is placed Tuesday over part of the Gurschen glacier near Switzerland's Andermatt

    Updated: 11:02 a.m. ET May 10, 2005GEMSSTOCK, Switzerland - Alarmed by the retreat of its Alpine glacier, a Swiss ski resort on Tuesday wrapped part of the shrinking ice-cap in a giant sheet in a bid to reduce the summer melt.

    If successful, officials at the Gemsstock resort above Andermatt in central Switzerland expect the example to be followed elsewhere in the Alps, where scientists say glaciers are under threat from global warming.

    “We think it will become common practice to cover parts of the glaciers,” Urs Elmiger, a board member of Andermatt Gotthard Sportbahnen, the cable car operator behind the project, told Reuters.

    A thin protective layer of artificial textiles, including polyester, was laid over an area of 3-4,000 square yards. The fleece-like material, hard to distinguish with the naked eye from snow, will reflect the rays of the sun.

    The $83,000 blanket will protect one of the main glacier access ramps, which has to be rebuilt each autumn at the start of the ski season to cover a yawning 20-yard gap opened up by the ice melt.

    “It needs a lot of work, energy and money to rebuild. And one day, if the melt increases, the cost of rebuilding the ramp will be very, very high,” said Elmiger.

    Entire glacier not feasible
    But scientists stressed that while such defensive actions could prove valuable in selected spots, such as access areas or cable car installations, they were not a solution to the overall problem of the vanishing ice fields worldwide.

    “It may be useful very locally, but it would be totally unfeasible — economically and ecologically — to cover completely even a small glacier,” said geography professor Wilfried Haeberli of the University of Zurich.

    The Alpine glaciers — also in Austria, France and Italy — are losing one percent of their mass every year and, even supposing no acceleration in that rate, will have all but disappeared by the end of the century.

    Gone in 50 years?
    More hot, dry summers like that of 2003 in Europe, when the loss speeded to five percent, could cut the life expectancy to no more than 50 years, Haeberli added.

    “We estimate that by the end of the 21st century, with a medium-type climate scenario, about five percent of what existed in the 1970s will have survived,” he told Reuters.

    For Martin Hiller, a spokesman on climate change for the World Wildlife Fund who was on hand to witness the Alpine experiment, the move was positive but offered no real answer to ice loss.

    “The solution is to switch to clean energy, we need to cut down on harmful pollutants, such as CO2 (carbon dioxide),” he said.

  2. #2
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    Five percent of what existed in the 70's?! That sucks. SUCKS.
    [quote][//quote]

  3. #3
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    the chugach last summer looked so so so dry, freaking global warming
    Its not that I suck at spelling, its that I just don't care

  4. #4
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    Oh what hard times are these when passing heat waves can say "NI" at will to old glaciers!
    Calmer than you dude

  5. #5
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    I saw somewhere that Antartica saw a -140degree day.

    Global warming can also mean heavy winters, extremes no?

  6. #6
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    that damn global warming. i suppose it was also the global warming that melted the glaciers from 650-800AD (and all the other times), well before the industrial revolution?

    don't worry. they'll recover. they always have.



    http://www.klimanotizen.de/html/newsletter_4.html

  7. #7
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    Excellent point, Ripzalot. Ever wonder why Greenland is named as such when it is now a sheet of ice and snow?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by article
    “We estimate that by the end of the 21st century, with a medium-type climate scenario, about five percent of what existed in the 1970s will have survived,” he told Reuters.
    I hate global warming as much as the next hippy, but fuck, shitty statistics are shitty statistics no matter what you are arguing about. We don't know where social security will be 15 years from now, let alone the affects of global warming on swiss snowpack compared to where it was 30 years ago...
    Craig Kelly is my co-pilot.

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTW
    Excellent point, Ripzalot. Ever wonder why Greenland is named as such when it is now a sheet of ice and snow?
    Yeah, it was a Viking real-estate scam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JTW
    Excellent point, Ripzalot. Ever wonder why Greenland is named as such when it is now a sheet of ice and snow?


    The name Greenland comes from those Scandinavian settlers. In the Norse sagas, it is said that Eiríkur Rauđi (Erik the Red) was exiled from Iceland for murder. He, along with his family and slaves, set out in ships to find the land that was rumoured to be to the north-west. After settling there, he named the land Greenland in order to attract more people to settle there. The fjords of the southern part of the island are lush. This proved successful, and the settlements seemed to be getting relatively well along with the new coming Inuit, and a Christian bishop was sent.
    My dog did not bite your dog, your dog bit first, and I don't have a dog.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will
    [ After settling there, he named the land Greenland in order to attract more people to settle there.
    Right, a Viking real-estate scam.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman
    Right, a Viking real-estate scam.
    Cheap land in fabulous Greenland! A land where the mead flows freely! Raping and pillaging beyond your wildest dreams! Don't miss this once in a lifetime opportunity!!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripzalot
    that damn global warming. i suppose it was also the global warming that melted the glaciers from 650-800AD (and all the other times), well before the industrial revolution?

    don't worry. they'll recover. they always have.



    http://www.klimanotizen.de/html/newsletter_4.html

    Awesome find. Thanks for posting it. Couple items to raise with the illustration:

    Global Warming is inevitable. Likewise a trend of Global Cooling will follow. I think most critics' sarcasm is mis-directed. It is the pace of Global Warming that is causing concern among the science community.

    Plant & Animal Extinction - If you were to super-impose a line that represents a specie's north/south progression and disgression (or, elevation limit in mountainous regions) you would find that it would track behind the waves illustrated. Example: Tree limit in the Alpes at the time of the Roman invasion was 2500+ metres. The Alpes actually looked like the Jura does today. They were almost completely covered by thick evergreen forests.

    Likewise in North America you could track Hard Maple types (ex. Sugar Maple) vs Soft Maple types (ex. Southern Red) in pond sediments and find similar waves occurring over centuries.

    Nature is resilient and these "waves" are part of the natural order. The 2 major problems we are now facing is the speed of warming, and most importantly, the isolation and "walls" we have placed in species' paths.

    Most Animal and Plant species can move slowly over time. But, with urbanization and development we have created major obstacles that some species may not be able to cross. Modern industrial farming practices create walls in the Great Plains. River valleys have always been a "highway" corridor for many species migrations. With vast walls created by cities and urban blight along these corridors it seems certain that some species will find themselves isolated.

    Geo-political Impacts: Track the northward push of the Romans towards what is now Germany and England and you will see it coincides with the warm period of 1 - 300AD. Along with them came their agriculture methods. Nyon, on the north shore of Lac Leman, was a city of over 80,000 inhabitants by 300AD. It had a large temple complex and small coliseum. But, in the next century the cooling trend was inevitable and I would imagine their crops (ex. grapes types brought from the south) began to fail. To my knowledge, they were not using today's methods of grafting, and certainly did not have access to North Am rootstocks.

    Interesting to note that the collapse of the Roman Empire trends along with the cooling period. Romans were chased out by the "barbarians" (I prefer to call them, "liberators") and, possibly, with the help of the longer and colder winters.

    We are entering another "warm trough". How low it will go is not known. Nor, how long it will last. But, if History offers lessons we can anticipate social disruption to the existing order. Economic collapse and population migration due to loss of currently usable agricultural land, water shortages and desertification, and starvation, will be driven by climate changes.

    We are a global community now and these will become the challenges. I believe if you look behind the sensationalist arguing on both sides of this issue these are the some of the warnings being raised.

    Alpine skiing is a meaningless blip on the historic time scale.
    Last edited by Lostinthetrees; 05-13-2005 at 12:33 AM.
    when not on the snow what else do i do...

    http://www.jatho-craftsman.blogspot.com/

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by The AD
    Cheap land in fabulous Greenland! A land where the mead flows freely! Raping and pillaging beyond your wildest dreams! Don't miss this once in a lifetime opportunity!!
    that's actually not a bad idea:

    http://www.dougcoombs.com/greenland.html

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lostinthetrees
    We are entering another "warm trough". How low it will go is not known. Nor, how long it will last. But, if History offers lessons we can anticipate social disruption to the existing order. Economic collapse and population migration due to loss of currently usable agricultural land, water shortages and desertification, and starvation, will be driven by climate changes.
    you had me going until the "economic collapse" part. more land will open up for crop farming in canada and siberia, and increased rain due to an increase in evaporation (hot makes it more rainy). also, an overlooked benefit of CO2 increase is an increase in plant production, so expect MORE food, not less. more storms tho. and feasts and famines when it comes to snow.
    Last edited by Ripzalot; 05-12-2005 at 11:57 AM.

  16. #16
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    FUck. I've been skiing with 2 professional
    meteorologist geographers climate experts and didn't know it.

    Guess it was them emailing/calling me for snow reports that threw me.

    Why don't you two stop giving yourselves excuses to continue driving,
    and accept that the damage you are doing the environment is not helping the glacier situation.

    Now then, can I get a ride to Saas Fee for skiing some weekend?
    Ski, Bike, Climb.
    Resistence is futile.

  17. #17
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    Interestingly, some climatologists feel that if the earth's surface is indeed warming, this will lead to increased water evaporation, followed by increased cloud formation, followed by increased rainfall/snowfall and potentially cooler temperatures.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripzalot
    you had me going until the "economic collapse" part. more land will open up for crop farming in canada and siberia, and increased rain due to an increase in evaporation (hot makes it more rainy). also, an overlooked benefit of CO2 increase is an increase in plant production, so expect MORE food, not less. more storms tho. and feasts and famines when it comes to snow.
    I agree with you that new regions for production may open up. Other regions may lose. Depends where the moisture moves. Some regions will be winners and others losers. Countries w/ territory that spans numerous climate zones (like US, Canada) have the potential to adapt. Small countries, islands, or those with 1 or 2 climate zones may lose.

    No, I do not mean that we could anticipate world-wide econo-collapse. I wanted to point out that climate change will have a ripple effect across the globe. In the past, it resulted in the migrations of peoples and the collapse of some civilizations.

    Bottomline for me ...the need for increased cooperation and equitable distribution of basic resources.
    when not on the snow what else do i do...

    http://www.jatho-craftsman.blogspot.com/

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeleAl
    FUck. I've been skiing with 2 professional
    meteorologist geographers climate experts and didn't know it.

    Guess it was them emailing/calling me for snow reports that threw me.

    Why don't you two stop giving yourselves excuses to continue driving,
    and accept that the damage you are doing the environment is not helping the glacier situation.

    Now then, can I get a ride to Saas Fee for skiing some weekend?
    I am not a climatologist, meterologist, or other professional scientist. Just an interested observer and generalist. A student of the natural world.

    Always will call up for your snow reports. You live at 1400+ metres on the edge of the Alpes while I live at 350 metres on the edge of a big lake. Your on-the-ground-zero observations of actual snow fall and moisture content are better than any weather prediction/report. I trust your judgement.

    Global climate change is inevitable and cyclical. Ripz's graph illustrates it very well. Driving (and other airborne pollutants) may accelerate the change and increase the length of peaks and troughs. Who knows? Let's continue as we have for the last 100 years and see what happens. It is a big experiment!

    Saas... put away the goods and I am on to other activities. Sorry, ring me next season!

    I would like to come up in June and spend some time in Cellblock A. I would like to paint the Dents from your balcony. Take you to the Yeti, too.
    when not on the snow what else do i do...

    http://www.jatho-craftsman.blogspot.com/

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTW
    Interestingly, some climatologists feel that if the earth's surface is indeed warming, this will lead to increased water evaporation, followed by increased cloud formation, followed by increased rainfall/snowfall and potentially cooler temperatures.
    That doesn't make sense to me... if more clouds form, wouldn't there be a greenhouse effect causing temperatures to rise. Ever wonder why every winter there are long periods of clear, sunny, FREEZING cold weather (high pressure system) followed immediately by dense cloud cover, a rise in temperature, and precip (rain or snow depending on temps)?

  21. #21
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    See Thursday's "Le Matin"; pages 20-21, for a big picture spread.

    Interesting to note that this is taking place at 2961 metres. Glacier 3000 not far behind?

    Some WWF's climbed on the "mat" and held a banner. Translated from French..."Protect the climate rather than attack the symptomes".

    They need to take a look at Ripz's graph. They do good work around the globe. Too bad they have to play "sensationalist" with a protest against the inevitable cycles of life.
    when not on the snow what else do i do...

    http://www.jatho-craftsman.blogspot.com/

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lostinthetrees
    I would like to come up in June and spend some time in Cellblock A. I would like to paint the Dents from your balcony. Take you to the Yeti, too.
    Do it!
    Cell Block A awaits you.

    And, The Yeti changed their menu. They still got their great burgers.
    They just added/changed some other stuff. New and Improved.
    And The Yeti is soon to be the only ski to at night bar.
    (enter promo emotion icon here)

    And to all of you and this climate thing, give it a break.
    We are not scientists, we are ski bums.
    Accept your fate or get a degree.
    Last edited by TeleAl; 05-13-2005 at 01:13 AM. Reason: because I wanted to add something. ok?
    Ski, Bike, Climb.
    Resistence is futile.

  23. #23
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    Increased cloud cover would reflect solar radiation, thus cooling the atmosphere. With more clouds, I'm sure the nighttime temperatures would be warmer, however, as the heat would be trapped. Per NASA studies, clouds overall have a cooling effect.

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    Britain faces big chill as ocean current slows


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    If ya'lls think the latest warming trend is a "natural cycle" you should read this

    and this
    ROBOTS ARE EATING MY FACE.

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