New Sportiva Spitfire 2.0 vs Syborg vs TLT5P

[timmaio]

I'm looking to replace my TLT5P boots with something new.

My calves are a bit skinny for the TLT5, I have the cuff buckle adjusted all the way to the small side of things, and this makes closing and opening it a bit difficult(and I could still make it smaller)

I want something in the same range of stiffness and a narrow lower. I would like a 1 step mode change.

I'm considering the new Spitfire 2.0 and possibly the Syborg. Has anyone skied either of those and the TLT5P without tongue and power strap?

How would you rate the stiffness compared to either of the other 2 boots here? Has anyone put boot crampons on either of the Sportiva boots?

I will be using them for power touring, long tours, skimo racing and steep/technical skiing(45-55 degrees skiing, max WI3 climbing)

My four complaints about the TLT5P are:
1) instep buckle kept opening when booting and skating, so I replaced it with a nordic ratchet buckle, just like the Syborg. That works ok, but can be difficult to remove after a long day with snow packed into the mechanism
2) The lower boot bulges when I push the tongues significantly
3) I have worn them out. Rivets on the cuff holding the buckle are loose, lost a rivet near the toe, carbon cuff where the buckle goes in is enlarged, carbon cuff near the top is starting to break.
4) because of my skinny calves they are difficult to get tight enough. I want a different closure mechanism if I'm buying new boots, else I would consider TLT6P

Other than that I love the TLT5P, it tours and skis well, I feel very confident skiing in them.

Thanks

[rangerjake]

I find the Spitfire to be a bit larger interior dimension fit overall compared to the TLT5 . If you really found your TLT 5 to be baggy I can't think of too many other boots that are going to have an objectively narrower/lower volume fit in this category.

[timmaio]

Good to know. I wouldn't say the lower is baggy, the cuff could be a bit smaller though.

I tried on th Syborg the other night, just carpet tested it. The fit was good in the 25.5/26.0 shell, but it was not as stiff as the TLT5P without tongue or strap, so I'm only considering Spitfire 2.0 now.

[angrysasquatch]

Did you just have the stock liners in the TLT5? I've got pretty skinny lower legs (have problems in other boots) and have never found a problem with the TLT5 or 6, but I've used Intuition pro tour from day 1 on both. A different liner should be able to make a substantial difference up there. Too bad they've opened up the interior dimensions of the 6 in newer generations, the TLT5 and 6 fit from stock was always great for me.

[timmaio]

I love how the stock TLT5P liner tours, always was worried that the Pro Tour would make them less nimble when in walk mode.

[timmaio]

FYI, I tried a pair of Spitfire 2.0 boots on if anyone else is interested. This test was done with stock La Sportiva Spitfire 2.0 25.5 boots, liners unmolded, using Sole footbeds used in my regular ski boots(Modified TLT5P 26.0).

Stiffness: I found them to be every bit as stiff as my TLT5P without tongues(carpet test, locked in skis), in fact a bit more stiff, but not much(I think this is mostly due to the fact that I can make them tighter on my chicken legs.

Sizing: I can go down a size to 25.5 shell(277BSL). I did a shell fit and found the 25.5 fit comfortably. I didn't feel toe pressure in a 25.5, but the forefoot volume is a little low. Whereas in the TLT5 26.0 I have to tighten the instep buckle more than half its range, in the Spitfire 2.0 25.5 I am on the loosest edge of the instep buckle range. In the TLT5P I use the felt pad under my Sole thin footbeds to take up volume. In the Spitfire I was using my footbeds, but nothing else to take up volume.

Climb Mode: The range of motion is significantly better than the TLT5P with CL liner. It is both greater range and with less friction. Rearward range of motion can be obstructed by the ski mode exoskeleton catching on the rear of the cuff, but after a few times going through the motion that seems to clear itself up. More on the mode change and exoskeleton later. I didn't notice any heel slop when in ski or climb modes even with the instep buckle loosened(this is likely due to inattention and non real world testing conditions).

Mode Change: I find the mode change in the TLT5 to be difficult at best(due to my skinny lower legs). The cuff buckle on the Spitfire is shorter, so there is less leverage for making it tight. Going from ski to climb mode is VERY easy and fast. This is a huge improvement over the TLT5 design. However, as stated above, the exoskeleton can remain caught for a few strides. This does not seems to impact the acute angle movement, but the cuff will not lean back until this works itself out. I think a stiffer spring in the exoskeleton may help with this issue. Changing from climb to ski modes in unfortunately significantly less smooth. I find it to be about the same frustration level and difficulty as the TLT5 climb to ski transition. It takes considerable force for me to move the cuff lever back. This is due to a few different issues. The first is that the velcro strap can get caught on the cuff which needs a little fiddling to clear the obstruction. I believe this could have been solved pre production easily. Either by redesigning the opening to make it larger and give greater clearances, or moving the location to be entirely within the velcro area(it gets caught because there is a portion where the velcro folds over a metal clasp and that hangs up on the cuff. So shortening the metal clasp would possibly alleviate this issue, or otherwise streamlining the transition). The other hangup is that unless you have the cuff at the locking angle there is significant additional force needed to move the cuff buckle throw. There is very little leeway here and it is unfortunate since some boots seem much more forgiving(you can throw the buckle at any cuff angle, then when the cuff gets to the correct lean angle it locks in, this is ideal in my opinion). Overall I feel like the boot engineers should have spent another month working on this mechanism as this is the weak point of the boot. Also to note, while I found issues with the Syborg mode change mechanism, there was no significant force involved to change modes in either direction and no hangups. I was hoping for such a smooth mechanism in this boot as well.

Durability: While I haven't taken these boots outside there are some general expectations of durability I feel you can glean from handling the boots for an hour or so. I feel more confident in the durability of the cuff than the TLT5P. My TLT5P cuff has significant chips in it at this point(bought used with minimal wear, ~150 days after that, ice climbing, rock scrambling, etc). The Spitfire cuff is a carbon reinforced polymer(PA12 nylon + carbon fiber) where the TLT5P appears to be a standard carbon weave layup in epoxy. The Spitfire uses pivot rivets very similar to the TLT series, so there may be slop issues, but it's hard for me to say at this point. The exoskeleton seems to be the weak point with this boot. I fully expect a season of hard use to cause issues with this mechanism. I expect the spring to lose effectiveness over time, which will make the mechanism cease to function, I expect the exoskeleton to get caught on something and get tweaked to the side, I expect the aluminum exoskeleton to get notched from use where it mates to the steel pin, causing further difficulty with mode changes.

Overall: I was hoping this boot would be the holy grail. I had tried the Syborg and other than an overall lack or mass and stiffness I found it very promising. I expected that this boot would take the Syborg into the realms of a 'real' ski mountaineering boot. A boot which would be able to tackle steep, technical skiing(45-60 degrees), climb ice and rock, be able to drive skis 105 underfoot with ~'enough' control and be fast enough for citizen skimo racing for a one boot quiver guy. I do feel like the boot will do well for the downhill skiing portion of the equation, but I doubt it's durability when put to the test climbing ice and rock, and the fast mode changes just aren't anywhere near a citizen skimo race boot.

Compared to TLT5P without tongue: Climb mode is much better. More and smoother range of motion. Ski mode is better, I can get the cuff tighter and feel I will have better control. Instep buckle is hugely improved over stock, and even better than my modification( https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...50759025_o.jpg ). Transition to climb mode is hugely better, transition to ski mode is marginally better. For rock and ice climbing durability I would trust TLT5 more. The failure mode for TLT5 seems less severe than the Spitfire and less likely.

Compared to Syborg: Climb mode is slightly worse, not a significant difference for my uses. Slightly less range of motion. Less ingress for snow in stock configuration. Ski mode is significantly better. The cuff is much stiffer and overall the boot feels confident enough for 105 underfoot skis. Syborg feels like 90 underfoot will be pushing it and difficult to control. Instep buckle is better. Transition to climb mode is slightly worse(didn't catch on the Syborg), Transition to ski mode is significantly worse(was VERY easy on the Syborg). I expect spring strength issues on both, exoskeleton durability issues on both.

[verbier61]

Consider scarpa F1evo. The more I ski em the more i like, and I have skinny calves

[timmaio]

What about stiffness? I had read they would not be as stiff or capable as my TLT5P w/out tongue. I have seen that I can acquire the F1 Evo Manual from Yurp for a reasonable price, but never tried on a pair for fit or stiffness when they were in the US last year.

[verbier61]

Skied with both f1 and tlt6p on different feet. Tlt6p is slightly stiffer, F1 more progressive, but they bith drive perfectly my movement shifts.

[timmaio]

Great, thanks for sharing your experience

[timmaio]

Speaking of the F1 Evo, have you used the 'Limited' fix version: http://www.sport-conrad.com/skitour/...o-limited.html

I can't find much documentation on how the mode change works(I presume the small back flipper? It looks like it could have crampon compatibility issues compared to the 'Manual' version: http://www.telemark-pyrenees.com/en/...-p-375080.html

[timmaio]

A small update.

Crampon Fit: I tried on my BD Neve Pro crampons and they feel very secure. The rear throw doesn't block any function, but I generally wrap the strap a full time around my ankle before securing it. If I were to do that here it would force the boot into ski mode. However it is easy and just as secure to just go around the front of the boot. The toe bail doesn't match the profile of the boot perfectly, but the two points of contact it does have is very secure feeling.

Mode Change: After looking at the mechanism more deeply I found that most of the difficulty with the buckle throw came from the metal loop at the end of the velcro strap. The cuff has a hole cut into it which the strap and metal loop pass through, and the hole is slightly too small for the metal loop to pass unobstructed. This presents just enough of an obstruction to make throwing the buckle a PITA. I tried two different solutions and found that replacing the metal loop with a loop of dyneema cord(and alternatively replacing the entire velcro strap with a length of dyneema cord) made the lever throw significantly more smooth and easy. It is unfortunate that a $900 boot requires this much modification out of the box, but I'm thankful that it was this simple to improve the mode changes.

[timmaio]

I got 3 days of skiing on them over new years. 1 day inbounds at A Basin where I skied everything from groomer blues to Zuma Cornice and Gauthier. 1 day skiing backcountry powder trees, up to 34 degrees with 2k' skin. 1 day doing a mellow 1 hr tour with my modified TLT5P on one foot, Spitfire 2.0 on the other.

Skiability: They surpass my TLT5P in their skiability. They feel stiffer and much more responsive than my TLT5P(without tongue, modified instep buckle). They skied my 172 BD Convert(105 underfoot, 1650gr) without any concern, both at the resort and in the BC

Mode Change: Better than TLT5. Ski to climb is great, climb to ski needs work. Even with the keeper latch to keep the cuff strap in place it repeatedly comes out. This makes for even more of a fiddly effort when transitioning to ski mode.

Fit: The forefoot seems to be for an average width foot with low volume. I have narrow feet with relatively high volume. This means that unless I clamp down on my forefoot until it is continually painful I don't have side to side control with my forefoot. In contrast my TLT5P modified with a ratchet plastic buckle is comfortable both touring and skiing and provides me with ample control.

[Lindahl]

Who skis a TLT5P without tongues? Thats almost a ballet slipper

[timmaio]

I must be a ballerina, skiing the Grand in TLT5M without tongues!

[dcpnz]

Call me a ballerina then. Hardly ever bother using the tongues in TLT5p.

[skis_the_trees]

Props to Timmaio for all his reporting in this thread. I just picked up some used Spitfire 2.1, this was the best on-the-ground info I could find on the web. I have always lusted after the TLT5 but since they were never made bigger than a mondo 30 shell, I never got to try. Sportiva boots may not be perfect but at least Scarpa and Sportiva routinely make 31/31.5 shells. Excited to compare to my Sportiva Sideral 2.0, which have been my best touring boot ever (and even do OK in the resort occasionally). The Spitfire 2.1 saves 1/4 lb per boot.

[skis_the_trees]

Long term update - The Spitfires did great last season. They will be my primary touring boot again this season. They ski a bit better than the Sideral mostly because the lean lock is just a bit more secure (less play in the mechanism). The weight savings are only from the liner, the Sideral/Spitfire shells are within 10 or so grams of eachother. The Sideral liner is comfier but I would rather have the weight savings while touring. Most importantly, they fit my long feet and so my toes are always happy at the end of the day. I can deal with downhill performance trade offs to have happy toes, but while BC skiing I honestly don't notice or care about any performance they lack - they are good "enough" not to notice, and a joy while uphill.