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  1. #1
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    Feb 2006
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    Killington's Impending Infrastructure Collapse

    All this talk about POWDR's Killington "capital improvements" (aka basic maintenance) lead me to ask the question:

    The way Killington is going, where will they be in 10 years?

    I first skied Killington in 1988, but started skiing there regularly in 2004. Ten years ago, in 2005, there was plenty of talk about neglect, old lifts and old lodges. Now ten years on, upkeep of the infrastructure has improved, but they rate of replacement is sorely lacking.

    Since 2005, they have installed one new lift (reusing old towers), replaced a lodge and a section of a lodge. They have removed two lifts without replacing them. That is a net loss.

    In the past 15 years (2000-2015), Killington has installed one lift (Skye Peak Quad).

    In the 15 years prior (1985-2000), Killington installed 2 gondolas, 4 detachable quads, 3 fixed grip quads, and 2 doublechairs.
    In most cases, these lifts replaced existing lifts that were 20-25 years old and lacked capacity.

    Does anybody else see a problem with Killington's current rate of re-investment?

    Snowshed and Superstar Quads were built in 1987. They are 28 years old. They are two of the oldest HSQ in the country. Pico's two HSQ are from '87 and '88. Are there any plans to replace these aging primary lifts, like Killington's competitors have done? If these lifts are not replaced in the next ten years, they will be older than any of the oldest HSQ's operating today.

    Here's an example of an old HSQ, that was removed from Breck and sold after 20 years in service:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeCa3Ud5cps

    Love the comment:
    I did 5 years as a liftie when I was younger been skiing for 20 years and this sketchiest chairlift i've ever ridden. Makes so many noises I've never heard on any other lift makes me wonder if i'm going to reach the top everytime.

    The only other detach quad in VT that is as old is Mount Snow's summit quad. Killington has FOUR of these lifts.

    Stowe recently replaced it's 1986 ForeRunner quad, which was very well maintained. But it was 27 years old, so they replaced it. BAM. Looks nice, doesn't it...?

    http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/...ift.php?id=826

    In the next ten years, Killington will have multiple lifts that will be getting dangerously old. We are already seeing an
    increased rate of failure with the rampant lift stopages. How are they possibly going to replace these lifts when they are not showing any willingness to spend real money on the mountain? What if someone is looking to buy property at Killington.......where will the mountain be in 10 years?

    By the year 2025, what will the fate of these other lifts be?

    Bear Quad (1979) - already Killington's oldest primary lift (chairs swapped to quad in 1984), will this still be in service in 10 years, at an astounding 45 years old? Will they drop $3m for a new fixed grip replacement?

    Snowshed Doubles - Rebuilt in 1987, but the towers date from 1961. Will the towers make it past 60 years old, or will they be replaced by a new 6-pack lift on snowshed?

    North Ridge Triple (1972) - Already appearing on lists of oldest chairlifts in operation, this lift will be 53 years old in 2025. It would have been replaced some time in the last 10 years by any other resort operator.

    Snowdon Triple (1973) - Ditto.

    Skyeship Gondola (1994) - Hard to imagine, but in 2025, the Skyeship will be 31 years old. That will make it one of the oldest operating Gondola's in the country. I'd be willing to bet Stowe replaces it's Gondola in the next 5 years, while Killington does not replace the Skyeship by 2025.

    And lets not even get started with the Lodges. Killington is in serious trouble. If they don't get their act together and start spending some money, they will eventually run out of turd to polish.

  2. #2
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    Mar 2006
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    Who cares!
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  3. #3
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    May 2007
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    Sandy, Utah
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    Killington isnt going anywhere..its close to the major metros and still brings in a lot of skier visits. POWDR has its own issues this year (and last) obviously. They lost their friggin flagship resort due to total stupidity.

    I agree someone needs to invest some infrastructure $$ into Killingtons aging lift system. I don't know that it'll be powdr but....it'll be someone.

    Ive skied at Killington since the mid 80's. Owned property there since early 2000's. Still have property but I have it in the rental program and havent been there in 10 years ish.....

    Its still a fun mtn.
    http://www.firsttracksonline.com

    I wish i could be like SkiFishBum

  4. #4
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    Oct 2003
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    Big in Japan
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    We'll, I care.

    First, you're not being fair comparing Otten ASC era capital spending vs today. Today is still mopping up from Otten. POWDR also has major issues with the loss of Park City revenue, which will make them even more frugal, I suppose, in the cash flow department. Yes, the chairs are old, but, they work fine. Maybe we're out of an era when a hill owner could borrow ten million bucks a year for improvements. Or maybe not. The hill is fine, though. Slower chairs actually keep the snow better, right? Look what happened to the middle of that mountain with Superstar, the lower gondola, and Skye Peak meeting at the same fucking place. Good lord. You want the whole mountain to be like that?

    The infrastructure problem I see is no new construction on the fabled access road since the eighties. The hotel and restaraunt stock is appallingly awful. But, hey, they fill them in the winter, so, wtf, right? That's not going to end well, soon, unless the old Boomer business owners sober up and realize that that whole model is not looking good for the future. I hate it, but, Stratton gets the big bucks because they concentrated all of that in a faux town at the base.

    No whoop, though. Now that Stowe is on the MC, Benny is driving all the way up 91 this winter. And even Mad River Glen is discounted on Liftopia, so my days at Killington are few before Colorado again. It's a great mountain during a midweek dump, though. I have a few tickets sitting in somebody's drawer, I'm pretty sure.

    Let's do some livin'
    After, we die

  5. #5
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    They spent all the cash on those ads you see all over the Metro North platforms down in NYC. Classic mistake.

  6. #6
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    Feb 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    We'll, I care.

    First, you're not being fair comparing Otten ASC era capital spending vs today. Today is still mopping up from Otten. POWDR also has major issues with the loss of Park City revenue, which will make them even more frugal, I suppose, in the cash flow department. Yes, the chairs are old, but, they work fine. Maybe we're out of an era when a hill owner could borrow ten million bucks a year for improvements. Or maybe not. The hill is fine, though. Slower chairs actually keep the snow better, right? Look what happened to the middle of that mountain with Superstar, the lower gondola, and Skye Peak meeting at the same fucking place. Good lord. You want the whole mountain to be like that?

    The infrastructure problem I see is no new construction on the fabled access road since the eighties. The hotel and restaraunt stock is appallingly awful. But, hey, they fill them in the winter, so, wtf, right? That's not going to end well, soon, unless the old Boomer business owners sober up and realize that that whole model is not looking good for the future. I hate it, but, Stratton gets the big bucks because they concentrated all of that in a faux town at the base.

    No whoop, though. Now that Stowe is on the MC, Benny is driving all the way up 91 this winter. And even Mad River Glen is discounted on Liftopia, so my days at Killington are few before Colorado again. It's a great mountain during a midweek dump, though. I have a few tickets sitting in somebody's drawer, I'm pretty sure.
    ASC only installed 4 lifts at Killington.

  7. #7
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    Benny & Highway Star. A match made in EpicSki heaven.
    Going where the wind don't blow so strange
    Maybe on some high cold mountain range

  8. #8
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    Yeah, enjoy that shitty little mountain to the south with no snowmaking and much more questionable "infrastructure".

    Let's do some livin'
    After, we die

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damian Sanders View Post
    ASC only installed 4 lifts at Killington.
    Well, as you say, four more than Powdr. And don't forget that huge hotel at the base of Snowshed.

    Let's do some livin'
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    No whoop, though. Now that Stowe is on the MC, Benny is driving all the way up 91 this winter.
    You'll like it there Benny. They have a fancy lodge.
    "timberridge is terminally vapid" -- a fortune cookie in Yueyang

  11. #11
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    I'll have to train those barista monkeys to make my mocha just so.

    Let's do some livin'
    After, we die

  12. #12
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    whats the height clearance in the parking garage again?

  13. #13
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    Jan 2011
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    E >>> W
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    Like all infastructure, there is a boom until the reality of maintainence sets in. A bigger problem might be the hundreds of bridges you cross on the way to K town that see even less maintainence or replacement.
    Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Natures peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop away from you like the leaves of Autumn. - John Muir

    "How long can it last? For fuck sake this isn't heroin -
    suck it up princess" - XXX on getting off mj

    “This is infinity here,” he said. “It could be infinity. We don’t really don’t know. But it could be. It has to be something — but it could be infinity, right?” - Trump, on the vastness of space, man

  14. #14
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    Dec 2009
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    Killington can go suck a nut. Sell it to New Jersey and be done with it.
    They think I do not know a buttload of crap about the Gospel, but I do.

  15. #15
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    No, sell it to Vail. Benny pass heaven.

    Let's do some livin'
    After, we die

  16. #16
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    I heard they were just going to shore up those lift towers with some leftover race stock skis and pop rivets.
    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    if you have to resort to taking advice from the nitwits on this forum, then you're doomed.

  17. #17
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    Some mountains will always be "successful" in spite of themselves.

  18. #18
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    I rode down Juggernaut once. That wasn't fun

  19. #19
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    Oh, I did that once when I was learning to snowboard, too. Yeah, sorry.

    Let's do some livin'
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  20. #20
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    GORB's concerned about this need to take Greg up on his AlpineZone invite where they give a shit about places like Kmart. For at least the past 10 years I've only skied there between December 12 and May 1 when I've been forced to, and I even regret some of those early/late days. Comparing it to the places in VT that aren't overrun is a joke--losing a few lodges and lifts could be the only thing that would make Kmart worthwhile during the winter.

    (OK, I'm not Benny, so I won't say absurd things about the skiing necessarily sucking there (like he does about other places that don't match the corporate ski mold he likes), but why would anyone willingly pay to go to VT and ski Hunter Mt. North? I'll even concede the skiing there, especially on decent weekdays, can be fine, but still...)

    Didn't Damian's infrastructure collapse years ago when he melted down as Highway Star and deleted all 6000 of his posts?
    [quote][//quote]

  21. #21
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    Holy shit that lift from breck is at killington now???


    That lift was fucking old when breck ripped it out. That is unbelievable

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki View Post
    GORB's concerned about this need to take Greg up on his AlpineZone invite where they give a shit about places like Kmart. For at least the past 10 years I've only skied there between December 12 and May 1 when I've been forced to, and I even regret some of those early/late days. Comparing it to the places in VT that aren't overrun is a joke--losing a few lodges and lifts could be the only thing that would make Kmart worthwhile during the winter.

    (OK, I'm not Benny, so I won't say absurd things about the skiing necessarily sucking there (like he does about other places that don't match the corporate ski mold he likes), but why would anyone willingly pay to go to VT and ski Hunter Mt. North? I'll even concede the skiing there, especially on decent weekdays, can be fine, but still...)

    Didn't Damian's infrastructure collapse years ago when he melted down as Highway Star and deleted all 6000 of his posts?
    Wait. Don't you ski at Mt. Snow all the time?

    Let's do some livin'
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  23. #23
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    Aug 2008
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    Central VT
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    Killington's Impending Infrastructure Collapse

    After building the new summit lodge and recovering from hurricane Irene, I can't see Kmart dishing out a few million more for new lifts and towers anytime soon.

    I will agree with the OP, besides the new lodge, Kmart's facilities are extremely dated for a place that gets $100 a day for a lift ticket.

  24. #24
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    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTsession View Post
    After building the new summit lodge and recovering from hurricane Irene, I can't see Kmart dishing out a few million more for new lifts and towers anytime soon.

    I will agree with the OP, besides the new lodge, Kmart's facilities are extremely dated for a place that gets $100 a day for a lift ticket.
    They keep coming in droves though eh? Agreed the place is dated. Still Skis fine most days though.
    http://www.firsttracksonline.com

    I wish i could be like SkiFishBum

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damian Sanders View Post
    All this talk about POWDR's Killington "capital improvements" (aka basic maintenance) lead me to ask the question:

    The way Killington is going, where will they be in 10 years?

    ...
    By the year 2025, what will the fate of these other lifts be?

    ...

    And lets not even get started with the Lodges. Killington is in serious trouble. If they don't get their act together and start spending some money, they will eventually run out of turd to polish.
    Maybe POWDR is looking at the pace of climate change and the likelihood of a decent return on their investment over the next 10-20 years and making what seems like a pretty logical decision to not invest any more money into an asset that won't bring a solid return.

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