Tammy Wynette cannot be reached for help-Divorce advice

[tgapp]

It isn't a magic bullet for sure. Both parties have to want the relationship to work, they just need help getting it back on track. What Retrouvalle shows you is how bad/ugly/fucked up some peoples relationships were and that they overcame their relations issues with the training.

(emphasis mine)

I've been lying low for the past little while but I also did the program that liv2ski recommended. All I can say is that if there was anything in the world that could have saved our marriage, that would have been it. I feel like I learned a lot about myself through Retrouvaille, and I was able to work on myself in the best possible way - I just wish things had turned out differently. Or do I?

I made a commitment to my ex that I wouldn't malign her on teh TRGz, and I plan on keeping that - so these comments are really intended to be about me - about my owning my shit and being honest about my emotional reality. I'm also not looking for emotional support or validation - if anything, I need my ideas and opinions challenged, not just blindly affirmed.

My ex has indicated that she feels an incredible amount of sadness and pain because of her choices, and she wishes she had done things differently, and that she wants another chance - I also wish that she had behaved differently - but I went pretty much all out during the time we did Retrouvaille together. I tried my hardest to show her that I cared about her; that she mattered to me, and that I was willing to put in the work necessary to save our relationship.

I only found out after the fact that during that time period she continued to speak, see, and sleep with her affair partner - which, according to her, doesn't qualify as infidelity because she had already decided to leave me and because she was clear with me that her intent in doing the program was in order to find closure, not to work on our relationship, she wasn't cheating on me.

This is hard to articulate but it's not the infidelity that hurts (if that's even what that was) - it's the fact that I was at my absolute most vulnerable and she still chose to behave that way, and that, after throwing everything I had at our marriage, she still deemed that to be insufficient of even exploring if we could fix our marriage (all during Retrouvaille that was my ask - to see if she would be willing to work on our relationship by the end of it) - and after three months to consider that possibility, she still left.

In the most generous terms - we were in different places at different times; I was doing everything I could to save our marriage (picking up the house more often, listening to and honoring her feelings, giving her the space she needs, respecting her boundaries, learning how to be more financially responsible and equitable), and for reasons I don't understand - she not only watched me go all out, in my most vulnerable state, but she did so while maintaining her relationship to her affair partner. I suspect she was still deeply hurt because of my actions, but instead of facing that pain and insecurity, she ran away from it in the only way she knew how to.

Now she is planning on breaking up with him and no longer sees a long term future with him - which is strangely saddening for me to hear, as well. If you're going to walk away from a 12 year relationship, hopefully what you're getting instead is worth it.

It's hard for me to describe the sadness I feel, but in a cliché way, it feels like I'm getting flayed alive - a rawness so deep that even the smallest touch feels like a mortal wound, like there's a very deep pain inside of me. I feel it every day, in virtually every moment - a sadness just barely under wraps.

This is the part that's hard for me to communicate: it's not the infidelity or even the lying that makes me feel unready to entertain getting back together with her, it's the fact that when shit hit the fan, I went into war mode: I built a support network, got a therapist, and went heads down on keeping our marriage alive - and when I begged her to take some of the same steps (even just broadening her support network to include advice from older people who would tell her more than "do what makes you happy" - a line that her friends told her which I don't believe has served her well), she did not engage with fear or discomfort in the same way I did (and do), and I believe that she is still behaving in a fear-avoidant fashion (seeking reunification because she is afraid of being alone rather than because she actively wants to be with me). God, I feel terrible for her, and I wish things had happened differently.

---

I mentioned in my last post that I was starting to see another woman, and I just got back from spending a week with her (she lives in Chicago). After spending two months getting to know each other long-distance, being in the same space has been remarkable. Like any new relationship, there are lots of pleasant feelings - the butterflies-in-your-stomach of young love, infatuation, passion, etc - but what I perceive to be the value in our relationship isn't in the feelings that our time spent together elicits (much like it's not the feelings of sadness with my ex that make me not want to get together with her) - but in our shared values - curiosity, kindness, how we prioritize our time, etc. Time will tell, but I think we're well past the rebound stage (she is aware of everything in this post and more), and I really appreciate spending time with her. Looking forward to either taking her backpacking this Labor day or taking her on the river.

Thanks again, as always, for all of the support.

[byates1]

^didn't you say you were gay?

I must be missing something.

[tgapp]

^didn't you say you were gay?

I must be missing something.

i'm queer/pan

so, attracted to a lot of different types of people

many of them are women. some aren't.

[byates1]

Ahh. Well best of luck. I've been single so long I'm set in my ways. Have 0 energy for dealing with women.

[LHutz Esq]

(emphasis mine)



My ex has indicated that she feels an incredible amount of sadness and pain because of her choices, and she wishes she had done things differently, and that she wants another chance - I also wish that she had behaved differently - but I went pretty much all out during the time we did Retrouvaille together. I tried my hardest to show her that I cared about her; that she mattered to me, and that I was willing to put in the work necessary to save our relationship.

I only found out after the fact that during that time period she continued to speak, see, and sleep with her affair partner - which, according to her, doesn't qualify as infidelity because she had already decided to leave me and because she was clear with me that her intent in doing the program was in order to find closure, not to work on our relationship, she wasn't cheating on me.

I respect your decision not to malign her on the TGRz.

So I will.

That is some next level gaslighting right there. It's not infidelity because I plan to split sometime in the future.

It's like "It's not premarital sex if we plan on getting married sometime in the future"

I am thinking a lot of folks could say - It's not infidelity, because if I get caught I'll probably end up getting a divorce.

tgapp - I hope you find a person that makes you happy, 'cause you don't deserve that self-centered, gaslighting, .. I'll stop there before I enter into some real maligning language.

[tgapp]

I respect your decision not to malign her on the TGRz.

So I will.

That is some next level gaslighting right there. It's not infidelity because I plan to split sometime in the future.

It's like "It's not premarital sex if we plan on getting married sometime in the future"

I am thinking a lot of folks could say - It's not infidelity, because if I get caught I'll probably end up getting a divorce.

tgapp - I hope you find a person that makes you happy, 'cause you don't deserve that self-centered, gaslighting, .. I'll stop there before I enter into some real maligning language.

Thanks. But sincerely - I don't see her actions as being born out of some inherent evil; I just think that we all do some degree of mental gymnastics to avoid sitting with the pain that we all cause others - in my mind, I see the narrative that she is creating as a means to avoid or explain the suffering that her actions caused. And, when we create lies (for ourselves or for others), no matter how well-intentioned those lies are, they will inevitably cause more pain. Compassion is truth, and truth is compassion.

I've spent a lot of time sitting with the pain that my actions have caused her. I'm still sitting with the idea that my actions will continue to cause pain, to myself, and others.

I think that she was deeply confused, lost, and hurt - and the desire to seek comfort in deception is deeply human. Lord knows I have done it and am doing it and will continue doing it. But - where possible, I want to identify those seeking behaviors - running from fear and chasing happiness - and eliminate them in my life.

May all living beings be free of needless suffering.

[Norseman]

IDGAF about orientation and it shouldn't matter for this thread anyway.

tgapp, : your openness, honesty, virtue, and vulnerability are absolutely commendable. I wish there were more folks like you, willing to open themselves to the world, try all the shit worth trying, see commitments clearly and work to preserve the hard-earned reward therein. You lay out this seesaw of emotion with the relationship with your wife, and I would expect that sine wave to oscillate for some time. My nerd brain sees the response curve like a damped oscillation.

It seems clear from your posts that you were the one to take action early, when it mattered most. Actions have a proper timing and IMO yours were proper.

[frorider]

Thanks. But sincerely - I don't see her actions as being born out of some inherent evil; I just think that we all do some degree of mental gymnastics to avoid sitting with the pain that we all cause others - in my mind, I see the narrative that she is creating as a means to avoid or explain the suffering that her actions caused. And, when we create lies (for ourselves or for others), no matter how well-intentioned those lies are, they will inevitably cause more pain. Compassion is truth, and truth is compassion.
.

‘Evil’ is a very loaded term and not particularly helpful. But her actions reek of breathtaking, almost Donald Trump levels of emotional immaturity.

[liv2ski]

I've spent a lot of time sitting with the pain that my actions have caused her. I'm still sitting with the idea that my actions will continue to cause pain, to myself, and others.

I think that she was deeply confused, lost, and hurt - and the desire to seek comfort in deception is deeply human.

May all living beings be free of needless suffering.

You're a good man. You owned your part in her confusion, tried to make amends and it wasn't enough or maybe to late. Life moves on. Wishing you the very best.

[TahoeJ]

Ahh. Well best of luck. I've been single so long I'm set in my ways. Have 0 energy for dealing with women.

I hear you. I deleted all of the dating apps a little while back and have just been focusing on doing my own thing and having fun with my friends and kids. It's actually been pretty great. What am I doing tonight? Whatever the fuck I feel like.

That is some next level gaslighting right there.

This. tgapp, if your new relationship falters, please do not go back to your ex, as it won't end well (again). Glad you're happy now.

[Meadow Skipper]

tgapp, if we were close friends I’d try really hard to get you to step back, look hard at what your ex is doing from more removed perspective, and try to help you see that it looks pretty unhealthy for you. At least take some time away from her, think things through, and determine if it’s really a good thing for you in the long run.

It doesn’t look like a good thing to me.

[tgapp]

IDGAF about orientation and it shouldn't matter for this thread anyway.

tgapp, : your openness, honesty, virtue, and vulnerability are absolutely commendable. I wish there were more folks like you, willing to open themselves to the world, try all the shit worth trying, see commitments clearly and work to preserve the hard-earned reward therein. You lay out this seesaw of emotion with the relationship with your wife, and I would expect that sine wave to oscillate for some time. My nerd brain sees the response curve like a damped oscillation.

It seems clear from your posts that you were the one to take action early, when it mattered most. Actions have a proper timing and IMO yours were proper.

thanks man. i certainly take some solace in knowing that i did all i could, even if it didn't result in the outcome i had hoped for. a lifetime spent in the mountains has reinforced that lesson - failed onsight attempts, getting skunked because of avy danger, or deciding that a line was too dangerous in current conditions - there's an asymmetry of going all out for something, and then accepting a different outcome with grace.

‘Evil’ is a very loaded term and not particularly helpful. But her actions reek of breathtaking, almost Donald Trump levels of emotional immaturity.

honestly i appreciate the sentiment but i also think that much of this doesn't come easily to people, her included - she's doing the best that she can, and she made some (by my judgement) critical errors. what i struggle with is that these errors may have been caught and prevented had she engaged in the community building i believe is so critical in times like these; you can't just white-knuckle things on your own, or only listen to friends who tell you to "do what makes you happy".

You're a good man. You owned your part in her confusion, tried to make amends and it wasn't enough or maybe to late. Life moves on. Wishing you the very best.

thanks dude. and, even accepting that this chapter of our lives is over, i still am grateful for the time we had together.

I hear you. I deleted all of the dating apps a little while back and have just been focusing on doing my own thing and having fun with my friends and kids. It's actually been pretty great. What am I doing tonight? Whatever the fuck I feel like.



This. tgapp, if your new relationship falters, please do not go back to your ex, as it won't end well (again). Glad you're happy now.

honestly i had no plans on getting into a relationship - i (we) both recognize that this was very unexpected and very young. every time we touch on a potential point of divergence though - like the big, heavy questions - her answer is like this astoundingly obvious giant green flag. and - seeing how she interacts with others, seeing her grace and kindness to everyone around her - is just incredible.

tgapp, if we were close friends I’d try really hard to get you to step back, look hard at what your ex is doing from more removed perspective, and try to help you see that it looks pretty unhealthy for you. At least take some time away from her, think things through, and determine if it’s really a good thing for you in the long run.

It doesn’t look like a good thing to me.

yeah, i agree with you - but that doesn't make things any less difficult. i have no plans on getting back together with her; the relationship i am in is wonderful and beautiful (if albeit young), and being with a woman who genuinely wants me and is kind to me is so refreshing.

i wonder if, in a few years, she might be a different person. i hope so - for her sake more than mine - and i do believe that while you can't change people, people can and do change. for all of her faults and mistakes, she is still an incredible person - just one that i don't judge to be in my best interest to be romantically involved with right now (or maybe ever).

[oftpiste]

This is the part that's hard for me to communicate: it's not the infidelity or even the lying that makes me feel unready to entertain getting back together with her, it's the fact that when shit hit the fan, I went into war mode: I built a support network, got a therapist, and went heads down on keeping our marriage alive - and when I begged her to take some of the same steps (even just broadening her support network to include advice from older people who would tell her more than "do what makes you happy" - a line that her friends told her which I don't believe has served her well), she did not engage with fear or discomfort in the same way I did

I sure feel you here T. I also went to war, for nearly 5 years and did everything asked of me, only to find out her extracurriculars had continued surreptitiously and continuously in spite of promises to the contrary in couples therapy and to me privately, and in spite of passionate claims that she didn't want to split when I finally pulled the trigger. Some part of me know something was off the whole time, but I didn't want to and really couldn't believe it. There comes a moment where enough is enough.

The good news is you showed up in full. You can look yourself in the mirror and know you did, and that may be the biggest piece you can take away from the unfortunate and brutal experience. Knowing that about myself has been extremely healing over time.

Hang in there brother. Very happy you're finding joy and green flags in your new relationship. I've found those things pretty healing as well.

[Harry]

tgapp, your new chick sounds awesome !

Sounds like you will be spending time with her in the Midwest, lots of cool maggots in the Midwest Stoke thread. Don’t be a stranger.


Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums

[MakersTeleMark]

We don't get a lot of midwest pics. Hint.

[riser4]

And we only know of one guy in the Midwest who owns his own island.

[frorider]

https://slate.com/technology/2022/07...s-history.html

In reality, researchers have concluded that most children touched by divorce are ultimately well-adjusted, indistinguishable from peers raised in nuclear families. It’s hard to overestimate the impact this information could have on a person hoping to divorce—or ruminating on how their breakup has affected their children.

[muted reborn]

https://slate.com/technology/2022/07...s-history.html

this is a phenomenally misguided piece of journalism.

[Choss Jonger, Sr.]

Launching into my first court hearing, woohoo!

[mb6f50]

this is a phenomenally misguided piece of journalism.

Why?

From the article,, I got that science doesn't nessicarily back the idea that divorce in itself is bad for kids and seems to show that conflict, instability, poverty and related issues are what is bad for kids so rather than aiming for keeping traditional and patriarchal nuclear families together at all costs we should aim for supporting people in healthy relationships, fighting against poverty and providing emotional supports such as therapy...

Sounds like an unhealthy 2 married parent home is worse than an ok co parenting or single parent situation.

Do you have something to back up your claim that the article is misguided or do you just not like the idea that a traditional, patriarchal family isnt always the absolute best?

[oftpiste]

Good luck mang! Stay on course!

Launching into my first court hearing, woohoo!

[riser4]

Why?

From the article,, I got that science doesn't nessicarily back the idea that divorce in itself is bad for kids and seems to show that conflict, instability, poverty and related issues are what is bad for kids so rather than aiming for keeping traditional and patriarchal nuclear families together at all costs we should aim for supporting people in healthy relationships, fighting against poverty and providing emotional supports such as therapy...

Sounds like an unhealthy 2 married parent home is worse than an ok co parenting or single parent situation

Do you have something to back up your claim that the article is misguided or do you just not like the idea that a traditional, patriarchal family isnt always the absolute best?

I didn't weather my parents divorce all that well. I suffered a bunch of emotional abuse from my mom's boyfriend and was just a kid so I didn't really know it shouldn't be happening. He was a grade A#1 asshole. He got physical twice and the second time I was old enough and strong enough that I could have cleaned his clock as he was a small man, in many ways. I was just too incredulous to really grasp what was happening in the moment. The other adults in my life at the time weren't helpful with that. I figure that the four years he was around cost me about six to eight years later on down the road in terms of working out what to do with my life. The silver lining is that once I got away from him it didn't take my mom all that long to figure her shit out and kick him to the curb. He was using me to deflect my mom's attention away from him. He was also emotionally abusive to her. Not to mention being a freeloading scumbag.

[mb6f50]

I didn't weather my parents divorce all that well. I suffered a bunch of emotional abuse from my mom's boyfriend and was just a kid so I didn't really know it shouldn't be happening. He was a grade A#1 asshole. He got physical twice and the second time I was old enough and strong enough that I could have cleaned his clock as he was a small man, in many ways. I was just too incredulous to really grasp what was happening in the moment. The other adults in my life at the time weren't helpful with that. I figure that the four years he was around cost me about six to eight years later on down the road in terms of working out what to do with my life. The silver lining is that once I got away from him it didn't take my mom all that long to figure her shit out and kick him to the curb. He was using me to deflect my mom's attention away from him. He was also emotionally abusive to her. Not to mention being a freeloading scumbag.

So it wasn't your parents divorce that harmed you but her abusive boyfriend after the divorce?

If she had chosen a non abusive, good boyfriend would things have been different?

[riser4]

So it wasn't your parents divorce that harmed you but her abusive boyfriend after the divorce?

If she had chosen a non abusive, good boyfriend would things have been different?

Different but not necessarily better. And, trying to separate the divorce from what happens when people are divorced is disingenuous at best.

[mb6f50]

Different but not necessarily better. And, trying to separate the divorce from what happens when people are divorced is disingenuous at best.

Not nessicarily. People who are in unhealthy relationships usually have some things to work out.

High conflict homes, abusive homes or even homes where the adults don't demonstrate warm, healthy relationships are harmful to children even if the unhealthy partners are their married parents.

Focusing on making people emotionally healthy rather than stay married at all costs is healthier for kids.

The article discussed studies where they selected out stressor such as poverty, abuse, high conflict, etc and the children with divorced parents fared nearly equally well as those with parents still married.

I think you are thinking if your parents hadn't divorced you wouldn't have had an abusive step-dad but you arent seeing the negative aspects of what you would have had instead.