Architecture

[nickwm21]

I'm sorry, but even for shitty design and a shirty fee, I just do not find this credible.
A $300m construction budget can pay for a lot more design hours than 3 people.

It's a DB job so we bought all the scope we could DB (M&P, E, FP, FA, exterior systems, interior framing, stairs, landscape and irrigation, ptube, ceilings, casework, etc...). I'm sure it's our fault, I bet they had more staff planned then my director made them take a hair cut during the proposal.

[brice618]

It's a DB job so we bought all the scope we could DB (M&P, E, FP, FA, exterior systems, interior framing, stairs, landscape and irrigation, ptube, ceilings, casework, etc...). I'm sure it's our fault, I bet they had more staff planned then my director made them take a hair cut during the proposal.

Well no wonder its a cluster fuck, if I'm reading you right, you expect full design docs after you take on liability for 80% of the construction details?

[Tippster]

...or at least tell them to wear closed toe shoes on the jobsite. Many homeowners, architects, interior designers don't understand that it's a game with contractors to make the jobsite as uncomfortable as possible for you. We try to make as much noise and mess are possible when you're around. I usually give one, "excuse me" then it's nail gun in your ear, grinder shooting all over your cloths, block you into the driveway, make you make to set up a ladder etc.

So you're being dicks to make some kind of point? Your job, like it or not, is essentially to make the Architects, Interior Designers, and especially the homeowners (read: the checkbook) look good so that they contract with you again. You guys can't build the house alone either. Stop acting like it's High School.

Very true. There are architects that can't figure out how to build anything just like there are engineers that would rather size everything double what it needs to be, electricians who can't read a plan, and framers who can't line up the tops of doors and windows so I can run interior trim around the room. So many humans are idiots that they end up in most every profession.

That is true across every profession IMHO. I'm sure there are Salesmen, Coders, and Lawyers that would say something very similar.

My wife & I were one of those special clients once. We lost a lot of money on that house.

OUCH.

I finished my grad work, dicked around a few years and then built a few houses and the related finish carpentry and millwork before I took a serious architecture gig. I'm one test from having my license now, and when testing it feels like I know too much about how the industry actually works to answer some of the questions. I agree that there is a major disconnect between academia and actual real world, put food on the table and have a good quality of life architecture, but, I don't think you could feasibly learn all the broad concepts, how to design, and the quantitative knowledge and come out of school with much more building intellect than what most people have now. The internship is well served in this regard. Maybe I'm just weird because I wanted to get out and swing a hammer.

I'm fortunate enough to have great relationships with almost all the contractors I work with, many subs included. I fuck up, I own it, they fuck up, they own it, and we all figure out the best way to get out of it without a bunch of pissing contests. The reality is that A/E's and contractors rarely have the same interests at the same time, and it's difficult for them both to see the other guys side. I digress.

As far as residential work goes, it's definitely true that most people don't need an architect and that most residential architects aren't doing much real design work, but who hasn't seen 100,000 shitty "custom" home builder houses full of stupid construction decisions, bad details, wrong wall systems, bad foundations, the list is literally endless (and never mind spec homes).

Good for you realizing that to be truly good at what you do you need to understand what the people who actually produce the work you design do for a living (I'm sure contractors like FoggyGoggles do,) what shortcuts they employ (we all do - I do in TV production) and where you can call bullshit.

[Doremite]

Working w a architect now that has been incredibly thoughtful and worth the coin. Also has worked before and seems to work incredibly well with the GC who runs a very small crew. Home renovation. I am totally soaking in the benefits of the design plan but also will trust the GC to offer insight on money saving options to get to the right end product. Shitting on any player in the process and not working collaboratively is the problem. Maybe missing the point of the thread but so goes it these days....

[nickwm21]

Well no wonder its a cluster fuck, if I'm reading you right, you expect full design docs after you take on liability for 80% of the construction details?

Meh. A lot of scope, especially the building systems, benefits greatly from being contracted DB. You get a better electrical design when the electrical engineer is paid by the electrician.

Stairs on the other hand. Never do design build stairs......

[brice618]

Meh. A lot of scope, especially the building systems, benefits greatly from being contracted DB. You get a better electrical design when the electrical engineer is paid by the electrician.

Stairs on the other hand. Never do design build stairs......

I do DB MEP all the time on small jobs (under a million) but a 300M hospital would not be one of them. To each his own I guess. Don't say much about stairs though, I did CA on a joint venture job that our firm didn't design not too long ago that the "architect" managed to leave the bottom stair off the site stairs, made from cast in place, and the CM didn't catch it till after he placed the concrete.

[muted]

My wife & I were one of those special clients once. We lost a lot of money on that house.

Many people were happy to work on your house though, is that not satisfying enough?

[::: :::]

My wife & I were one of those special clients once. We lost a lot of money on that house.

Sounds like you have a story to share?

[::: :::]

You get a better electrical design when the electrical engineer is paid by the electrician.

Says the electrician?

[The Suit]

Many people were happy to work on your house though, is that not satisfying enough?

I didn't say it was unsatisfying. Just not a good investment.

[The Suit]

Sounds like you have a story to share?

Not really. We built our dream house that we were going to live in for the rest of our lives. It took four years from when we started talking to the architect & builder until we moved in. We lived there for three years, then discovered we wanted to live in Jackson Hole instead.

We eventually sold the house for less than it cost to build, but it was a memorable experience. Our kids got to grow up in Jackson Hole and we got to live there for 12 years, so it's all good.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Your job, like it or not, is essentially to make the Architects, Interior Designers, and especially the homeowners (read: the checkbook) look good so that they contract with you again

Not really. 9/10 times if I'm working new construction, I'm a subcontract trim carpenter/cabinet installer/flooring installer/tile setter. I'm hired by the GC and getting paid a fixed rate. My job is to make the house look awesome as efficiently as possible. By the time I show up, unless a walk through has been scheduled, all the "looking good" should already be done. I try to schedule a meeting with everyone once the materials on-site. Never happens.

I'm assuming you're sticking up for your wife's profession. If she's good at her job, this shit don't apply. This thread is about slinging shit at architects. Specifically, I was commenting on on-site tradesman having a job to do. They like to show up while I'm grouting a shower and ask some question about the cabinet set that was relevant two weeks ago. Designers in particular tend to act like brain scrambled "artists" who don't respect contractors time, can't visualize anything despite that being their job and like to throw everyone under the bus in front of the homeowner.

So really, all of our jobs is to make a great house with the least amount of drama and cost over runs. This requires that we all work together. Where I work, it's a little different where you get a bunch of fairly well paid quality conscious contractors. The unnecessary drama is usually due to the guys and girls in dockers or high heels who get their hackles up and won't work as a team.

[Tippster]

I was kinda going for a service industry thing in general, but OK. I fix other people's fuck-ups every day at work it seems, and I'm not in construction. Your last paragraph is what I was getting at - no segment is an island. It would be wonderful to be completely out of the Customer Service loop and simply concentrate on what you're good at, but I've found that almost never happens.

My wife's business speaks for itself. I don't need to stick up for her. She's great at what she does, her plans rarely if ever get altered by the SE, and she has multiple return customers. She also has great contractors she works with who will catch a flub and fix it on-site. She does the same when necessary. Guess it all comes down to trust.

[Flounder]

You get a better electrical design when the electrical engineer is paid by the electrician.......

You get a cheaper design and if you're a GC looking to scrimp because you under bid then it may be a "better" design.

Right out of college I worked design build for several years so I get the benefits and the drawbacks. Like many of my fellow grads I took a non-traditional route, bad economy for us in the early 90's. After the DB firm I jumped way old school to work with a landscape architect, Dan Kiley, for a couple of years. Then to a traditional architects office in the hopes of high end residential. He turned out to a wack job.

I got an opportunity to double my salary as a facilities manager and haven't looked back. I still do residential work on the side for family, friends, and a couple of contractors. It's what I enjoy and every project can use improvement from multi million down to a small addition.

And yes, since the first site visit while at the DB firm, I'm aware of the hazing by the subs. Joke's on you though, I got into this line of work because I love being on a job site. Only difference is while you're destroying your body busting your ass, I'm out of the office, drinking coffee, taking pictures and enjoying my day.

[Flounder]

Discuss.

By the way, I'm taking this idea to the next level and doing a deconstructionist interpretation as a social commentary on the breakdown of society and the redefining of sexuality. Look for me on kickstarter .

[Below Zero]

We try to make as much noise and mess are possible when you're around. I usually give one, "excuse me" then it's nail gun in your ear, grinder shooting all over your cloths, block you into the driveway, make you make to set up a ladder etc.

Wow FG, now that's just plain childish.

[Below Zero]

Architecture isn't a commodified product. The fact that the general public treats it that way is part of the problem. Buildings are complicated. Even if you want to plop the same structure down in different places, you have to plan on making specific adjustments to make it work.

Well said!

[Below Zero]

As far as residential work goes, it's definitely true that most people don't need an architect and that most residential architects aren't doing much real design work, but who hasn't seen 100,000 shitty "custom" home builder houses full of stupid construction decisions, bad details, wrong wall systems, bad foundations, the list is literally endless (and never mind spec homes).

Not sure I agree with this. I've seen some house where a non-designer or non-architect has designed them, and the spaces just don't work. Understanding space and how humans move through it is a skill that should be valued. It's hard. To design a home that meets your client's needs is not easy. Yeah, you can pick out a home from a catalog, and yeah, the spaces may work for you, but then you start to complain why your living room is so hot in the summer when you've got a huge amount of west facing glass. Designing a house for a specific site and climate takes skill, and guess what, it's hard. I know you know this brice618, but it's important to say.

[Below Zero]

So really, all of our jobs is to make a great house with the least amount of drama and cost over runs. This requires that we all work together. Where I work, it's a little different where you get a bunch of fairly well paid quality conscious contractors. The unnecessary drama is usually due to the guys and girls in dockers or high heels who get their hackles up and won't work as a team.

I agree with this. Another problem with a construction project is folks not working together. The guy tape and texturing the drywall is just as important as the architect, electrician, general contractor, etc. Problems happen when someone thinks they're better than someone else. Design professionals need to realize you can learn so much from the contractors; the guys actually installing and building shit. When you learn from the them, your details become better, your attitude changes. These are all great things for a project and the end user of the building. I like to talk to contractors and explain the WHY of something on my drawing, or why I am asking him to build something a certain way; this is where contractors can learn from design professionals about building code, accessibility, building science, etc. Collaboration is the key to any successful project, not just construction.

[RootSkier]

Behold the majesty of this amazingly-drawn detail:

[::: :::]

Not really. We built our dream house that we were going to live in for the rest of our lives. It took four years from when we started talking to the architect & builder until we moved in. We lived there for three years, then discovered we wanted to live in Jackson Hole instead.

We eventually sold the house for less than it cost to build, but it was a memorable experience. Our kids got to grow up in Jackson Hole and we got to live there for 12 years, so it's all good.

when it was designed, was it a goal to sell at a profit? i mean, it was intended as your forever house so i'm guessing there were decisions made to suit you guys specifically and not the market at large

i'm thinking there's more here to understand (and i'm only poking at this because your first statement implied there's no value to the design process because you had to take a loss on the house after three years)

[brice618]

Not sure I agree with this. I've seen some house where a non-designer or non-architect has designed them, and the spaces just don't work. Understanding space and how humans move through it is a skill that should be valued. It's hard. To design a home that meets your client's needs is not easy. Yeah, you can pick out a home from a catalog, and yeah, the spaces may work for you, but then you start to complain why your living room is so hot in the summer when you've got a huge amount of west facing glass. Designing a house for a specific site and climate takes skill, and guess what, it's hard. I know you know this brice618, but it's important to say.

Of course. I guess my point is I've worked off architectural drawings to build enough houses and remodels that I pretty well have seen the average quality of "design" that gets done for an average builders set is pretty poor. The last big remodel job I did the architect demo'd over half the bearing walls in the house without any thought (or even realizing) to how to support the roof. In my experience that sort of thing is par for the course, and why we never did stipulated sum residential work.

[The Suit]

and i'm only poking at this because your first statement implied there's no value to the design process because you had to take a loss on the house after three years

Go back and read what I wrote. It was a simple statement of fact. You seem to have read a lot of meaning into it that wasn't there.

I think there's ton's of value in the design process. Our architect designed a beautiful home in a beautiful setting, and our builder and all the craftsmen who worked on it created a work of art. I still miss it. The money-losing decisions were our own.

I'll probably regret posting this, but here is the house I'm talking about.

[RootSkier]

I'll probably regret posting this, but here is the house I'm talking about.

Damn.


678

[::: :::]

You seem to have read a lot of meaning into it that wasn't there.

sorry, my sensitivity to a thread in which architects are getting misrepresented by some. I try not to get worked up by tgr opining, but sometimes i try to temper it with a counter opinion where it hits close to home.