Khion vs Merc vs Vulcan vs Mtn Lab vs Maestrale RS

[turnfarmer]

Yes. Attach to shell with rivet, Chicago screw small nut and bolt, washer good idea on top of strap. Or just thread it through slots if boot has them. If you like burly look into the new wider, thicker straps, I think they are the super long ones, just cut them shorter.

[XXX-er]

You know you could just get a couple of the 3' long Thule cam straps that are 1.5 inches wide

[JKlompus]

Anyone punched the new version of pebax on khions? Wondering how it is to work with

[gregL]

Gregl and Swissific, any experience with MTN Explore? My big toe always hits the front of boots, and my calves are skinny, so I'm torn between 27.5 and 28.5. Wondering if an extreme toe punch in the 27.5 would deform the black fabric-y thing. Looks like lower shell is the same grilamid as MTN Lab.

Sorry, we don't carry the MTN Explore and I haven't worked on any, but I believe the lower shell is the same with a lower and narrower spine at the rear of the boot. I would doubt that a toe length punch will deform the open lip of the tongue area if done properly, but haven't tried any yet.

[slevinsky]

Anyone punched the new version of pebax on khions? Wondering how it is to work with

I have the Khion Carbons and have had the metatarsal punch done on both boots for my flipper like feet. So far punches have held nicely, is a thin material so have to be careful with it. So far so good with it though, and I will be getting a little more work done yet on them.

[LawndartGustav]

I modded the strap which works great after a bit...
I've had some trouble with the liner tongue being to soft and have gotten a pressure point at the to of the boot. It feels a lot better now with the padding putting pressure over more of my shin =)
Other thought are to try another liner (which I've done and it felt better for my shins) with a stiffer tongue or put a plastic spoiler on the tongue.

[swissiphic]

I modded the strap which works great after a bit...
I've had some trouble with the liner tongue being to soft and have gotten a pressure point at the to of the boot. It feels a lot better now with the padding putting pressure over more of my shin =)
Other thought are to try another liner (which I've done and it felt better for my shins) with a stiffer tongue or put a plastic spoiler on the tongue.

had some shin bang/pressure points upper liner tongue as well...seemed to be terrain/snow condition dependent. so far it seems for my foot/lower leg shape, adding 10mm (yeah maybe a bit much but it's what i had on hand for testing) heel wedges created a better fit and internal ramp angle and has totally eliminated that pressure point. Also, tried a few days using very thick foam intuition luxury liner molded for dynafit mercuries which have inherently more ramp due to the thick foam of liner bottom being very compressed at ball of foot...seemed to work just fine as well, better pressure distribution along tongue...for my specific anatomy anyways. (way too thick at forefoot/toebox though without remolding but stock liner with heel wedges seem to be working out for now)

[Pat]

I picked up a pair of MTN Labs a couple days ago. Yesterday I spent a few hours skiing in them and found I need some tweaking. Like others here, there is a 1" to 2" wide horizontal area along my shin where it meets the top of the tongue/strap. It is a bit sensitive there. I noticed this in the shop when trying them on. There was a small modification made to the inner boot while heat molding to account for this, but the change was barely noticeable post-molding in the shop.
I decided to take them out and just ski them as-is and see what happened. Surprisingly, the more I skied in them the less it bothered me. By the end of the day it just wasn't an issue. That said, I would like a more progressive transition from the top of the tongue/strap to area above the boot. It feels as if there is a bit of a hard edge there.
Generally speaking the boot fits my foot very well. However on the top of my foot from just in front of the instep down to the area over my toes there is quite a bit of extra volume. I'll need to get some foam in there to take up that extra space.
Lastly, I don't like how upright I have to ski in these boots. It's not terrible, but I plan on modifying the boots to have a bit more forward lean. I felt like I was skiing bumps in the back seat yesterday.

[YoEddy]

Just because the boot sole is shorter doesn't necessarily mean the interior of the shell is shorter (I think it is, but not by much). I wear a 26.5 RS 130 and also an Atomic Backland Carbon 26.5 comfortably; the Backland Carbon has a BSL of 288. There are other reasons the Vulcan may not fit.

FWIW I ski a 29.5 RS140 and the 29.5 Vulcan. I had to punch the Vulcan for some toe room whereas the Langes fit perfect about of the box (breaking my rule that if you're not punching it it's too big).

I've punched many alpine boots, but the Vulcans were my first Pebax punch - definitely not the same as punching PU. Pebax seems to go to an almost liquid state really quickly. I know PU gets real pliable at ~300 degrees - would appreciate any beta on target temps for my next Pebax punching foray.

I pulled the trigger on a pair of Mtn Labs, which I assume I'll need to punch the toe. I liked a lot about the Vulcans (except for the buckles/walk mode), but ultimately the Vulcan death pinch I get at the heel proves to be too much of a PITA to solve as I need to punch it right where the hinge is located.

[tshan0420]

right

[afraid]

Sorry, we don't carry the MTN Explore and I haven't worked on any, but I believe the lower shell is the same with a lower and narrower spine at the rear of the boot. I would doubt that a toe length punch will deform the open lip of the tongue area if done properly, but haven't tried any yet.

Thanks. I found Blister's review of the Explore. Unfortunately the cuff is lower than the Lab cuff, kind of a deal breaker for me. Let us know if you do any toe punches on the Lab.

[YoEddy]

Just got my Labs. Haven't skied them yet, but I'm going through the fitting process and thought I'd share my perspective, and comparison to my Vulcans, FWIW.

For comparison I'm currently in Vulcans with the fwd lean block washer flipped (more upright), an Intuition Plug PoweWrap liner, and WC Booster Strap. As stated I like a lot about the Vulcan, but ultimately I picked up the Mtn Labs because I get a serious "Vulcan death pinch" just below/behind the outside ankle bone that happens to be right where the damn cuff hinge is located. Truth is I like the way the Vulcans ski without the tongue in as they feel a lot more progressive (even though I also heat molded/bent the tongue to a tighter angle to help eliminate the brick wall flex pattern).

Anyway, the Sally shell fit seems just slightly roomier than the Vulcan. Maybe not roomier and they're actually similar volumes (?) but the Lab seems to fit the contours of my foot better. The Vulcan is definitely a curvier and more sculpted last. No heel/ankle issue in the Lab, and what 'appears' to be a roomier toe box, but the jury is still out on whether I'll need to make some more room there. The toe box looks taller, but once inside it doesn't feel like it has any more height than the Vulcan.

Liners don't seem to be too bad, but I'm seriously considering a Zipfit Tour (hooked on Zipfit) so I don't know if I'll spend any time working on the stock liner.

The instep buckle is damn effective (!) at closing/tightening the entire lower shell. I guess unbeknownst to me I have a higher arch because I can barely get it buckled with the stock liner, and it is TIGHT. I don't have as much of an issue with my powerwraps in there, but it's still a tight fit.

Cuff - I can feel the abrupt cuff/shin pressure, but am not sure how much of an issue it'll be until I ski them. I'm thinking the Booster will help eliminate, but if not the Zipfit should help distribute pressure.

Power Strap - I like the pull strap mod idea, and now i see why it would be needed. It's not a very good cam buckle, but it's coming off anyway.

Stance - Forward lean is very comparable to my Vulcans with the block washer flipped. Too bad there isn't a similar adjustment on the lab as I like the even more upright stance of my Langes. Cuff alignment also seems to be slightly straighter/neutral than the Vulcan. I like my alpine boots cuff tilted all the way 'out', but can't say the same for my AT boot ... can't change them anyway.

(Carpet) Flex doesn't feel as stiff as the Vulcan w/ tongue, but seems slightly more progressive and also at least as stiff as the Vulcan w/o tongue. The Zipfit Tour should change this too.

ROM seems fine walking around, and i don't know if I would know the difference is a few degrees less anyway.

<end blog>

[shirk]

Seems all the MTN Lab owners are in here so will ask.

Fit vs the original Ghost? I am a 26 shell in that Ghost and a 1.5 finger shell fit. Volume was pretty good before the liner packed out but get a bit of foot movement now and end up cranking the buckles to get rid of it and crush the foot.

The flex on the original Ghost is like the current 130's. This was too stiff for me. I am happy in something around the 100 range. the MTN Lab as 120 is likely a bit stiffer than I want, the Explore at 100 would be good but don't like what I hear reading about the low cuff height.

Can the Mtn Lab be softened up just a touch?



Looking at the pic of the lower shell not sure how you would do a traditional V trim.

Boot will be a quiver of one at WB. Ski days over the next couple years will be lower than the past as we have a new born so I'll be picking my days wisely no need to cover days that are hammering hard pack.

edit.

Adding the other rear pic with the cuff removed.



I think thinning the hinged portion of the lower cuff into the "V" might soften it a bit.

[phidauex]

I have a pair of the MTN Explores, and they are definitely a "legit" 100-110 in terms of flex. Much stiffer than my Scarpa Skookums, which were supposedly 90 with the touring tongue, and 110ish with the downhill tongue.

I've had two ski days out on them so far and am very pleased (one resort, one tour).

I'm not sure I'd worry so much about the cuff height - the Explore is slightly lower than the Lab, but the liner still goes above the cuff a bit, and it is still higher than both the TLT6 and my Skookums (all worn same day). I'd say for the weight class it has a slightly taller than average cuff, at least in the small 24.5 size.

EDIT: It would probably be easier to stiffen up the Explores with a bit of a rear spoiler than it would be to soften the Labs. Due to the stiff spine, a v-trim might just make for more lateral movement, and little additional forward flex.

[shirk]

Taller than your Skookums you say? Well then MTN Explore it is as my touring boots are Spirit 4's so the Explore should be taller than them as they are the same or lower than Skookums.

[Judo Chop!]

hey - anyone played with adding/moving extra buckles to any of these boots?

I have Vulcans (heavily custom punched, but great fit now), and the MTN Lab shell-fits my foot decently. but in both I feel like I need an extra buckle as low as possible on the cuff (or under the cuff ideally) because of my ankle shape.
I've tried ski straps around that part of my boot on my vulcans just to test and it does improve fit/performance for me. but Vulcans are so fiddly and I read that the solly skis better anyways so it could be worth a switch.

plus... they're blue.

[XXX-er]

One of the Salomon riders last season had added an extra buckle over the instep area so obviously it can be done

[swissiphic]

+/- 30 days on the mtn. lab with stock liner. Thought the liner was okay at first but after 10 days, it was pretty packed out and now at 30, is pretty much toast. Heel pocket totally wallowed out, getting bone on plastic screaming pain while driving a ski in variable snow, ankles swimming back and forth, instep buckle cranked to max after beginning the boots life on wrung number 3. I have thin flat super pronated skinny ankles above the joint, protruding spurlike heel bones, etc...worst feet ever for ski boots so something others to be aware of with similar foot issues. I attribute the premature packing out to 29 of those days being ski touring...boots always felt okay at beginning of day, 2000 feet of trailbreaking later, feet were swimming. My one hill day wasn't bad, actually, had to crank the buckles up a notch by afternoon but feet weren't swimming AS bad. Nothing new for me, every stock liner in the 7 different pair of touring boots I bought since '95 ended up as rubbermaid fill. Intuitions, here we come, just like the other ones...which aren't perfect but at this stage of the game, best compromise.

Still wish manufacturers could come up with air chamber micro inflatable adjustment strategic pods in the foam liners to keep fit like new every day, all day. Ski touring with a heavy pack just puts so much torque on liners i find that even after extensive mods with boot fitting foam, wedges and bontex volume reducers, everything just packs out and goes to shit either sooner or later for my feet anyways.

Thought the buckle placement was fine at first, now wishing for better fit tension with the xxx'er mentioned mod and/or, another cuff buckle lower than stock, like Judo Chop suggests; above the ankle bones under? (i hear you) over? cuff to suck in the volume there. I have a few spare buckles kickin' around and am not afraid to modify gear...will report if I have any success with it. Other than the liner and some personal preference details the boots really do ski and tour incredibly well.

Five things would have been nice from Salomon;

1. A few different options for cuff buckle placement and/or?
2. Dynafit merc/vulcan esque fold of ankle buckle
2. A few different forward lean settings...stock feels to upright in some conditions but easy to mod with spoiler
3. Forward flex stiffness adjustment like the SX 91 equip
5. Stock intuition liners of customer choice

[LeeLau]

Sorry to hear G. Every liner should an Intuition liner

[robnow]

I'm going to try and get a hold of Ruebens to see what mod he did exactly. In general I'm happy with the Mtn Lab, feels great in pow conditions both touring and at the resort but once conditions turn variable or hitting hard packed back to lift, just too much pain on inside ankle. After putting only the liner on, the lower eyelet rubs right on the frontside of my inside ankle (malleolus) and very little cushion there, sitting just in front of heel pocket material and I suppose this could be exacerbated by the lack of heel hold.

[swissiphic]

just too much pain on inside ankle. After putting only the liner on, the lower eyelet rubs right on the frontside of my inside ankle (malleolus) and very little cushion there, sitting just in front of heel pocket material and I suppose this could be exacerbated by the lack of heel hold.

Had the same problem. Cut the eyelet off (I never use the laces in liners) and harvested a temporary strip of blue foam from a camping mattress, duct taped to shell over both exposed rivet heads as a ghetto temp mod/experiment. It works and I have really pronated boney protruding ankle bones...all of 'em. I think a better permanent mod will be a strip of intuition foam, and heat 'er up with hot air gun, tape it in position and insert liner for the correct thermomold...haven't done it yet since blue foam is doing it's thing but there's the odd turn where bone on plastic feel is felt. Had to use the blue foam strip with both stock and Intuition high volume luxury liner to eliminate the bone on plastic pinch point. Had some reasonable success with intuition high volume foam liners for eliminating heel slop/heel hold issues...and prit near most other fit problems experienced with stock liners.

[gregL]

I punched the MTN Labs for medial malleolus position on both boots (mine were not where Salomon thought they should be) and it worked great. Heated the lower shell and cuff, buckled the boot up and punched with a large ball, then put the liner in after it cooled and punched again. No need to remove the rivets, even though the punch was partly on the forward one.

[robnow]

Thanks for sharing, I'll try the foam first but the more i look at it, the liner just isn't designed well. Maybe will go with Intuition.

[BurnHard]

Appropriate thread.

Just demoed a 28.5 MTN Lab today, damn what a boot. If I could just make it NOT HURT.
Toe box fits wider & more comfortable than my Maestrale RS (which I'm retiring).
Heels & ankles fit great; the high cuff feels fantastic.

I have pretty bad pain on my arch, however, starting from about mid-point back, lots of pressure on the muscle right down there. This is on both feet (without molding the liners), with custom insoles, tried shifting the insoles around and it does help, just doesn't fix it.

Skied about 2 hours inbounds charging hard, then skinned for an hour. Pain throughout, although much more manageable while skinning with a loosened boot.

Any way I can punch out the boot by the arch? Anything I can do about this? My alternatives are a TLT6P, or the Atomic Backland Carbon, neither of which ski as well. I may also get away from the "one-boot quiver" idea and consider getting both the MTN Lab and the Backland Carbon. IF I can make the Salomon fit...

[gregL]

I have pretty bad pain on my arch, however, starting from about mid-point back, lots of pressure on the muscle right down there. This is on both feet (without molding the liners), with custom insoles, tried shifting the insoles around and it does help, just doesn't fix it.

Your arch is on the plantar surface of your foot (underneath) and not punchable. If you mean the medial midfoot of the boot shell just above the arch, then yes it's as easy to punch it there as anywhere on the periphery of the boot. Post a picture of your foot and point out the area you're talking about and I can confirm.