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  1. #1
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    27.5+.....has the industry gone full moron?



    http://www.pinkbike.com/news/pinkbik...bike-2015.html

    I'm getting really, really, REALLY sick of all this wheel size crap. Couple good quotes:

    Walk into LBS.

    ’Can you explain the advantages of 27.5?’
    lbs: ’Bike rolls faster/easier over rough terrain than 26, and is stiffer,lighter and more manoeuvrable than 29! Best of both worlds!’
    ’Can’t I just run 26 with bigger tyres?’
    lbs: ’No, Totally different, heavier, slower rolling, will ride like a pig!’
    ’What about this new 27.5+ then’
    lbs: ’Has the advantage of the larger diameter 29er, with significantly more grip and suspension due to lower psi’s. This is the next big thing!’

    Scratch head!
    I have seen versions of @ric's comment popping up, and I have to say this is the question I want answered by any mid-fat proponent. Very, very few trail riders are running 26x2.5" or 27.5x2.5" tires which have been available in great casings and popular treads for year(s) because "2.3 or 2.35 is plenty of traction" or "the added weight isn't worth it." But if you bypass 2.5" and go to 3", suddenly it's great? Shenanigans.
    The industry is full of crap. I've had two sets of 26" wheels for many years, one has lighter rims and 2.3" tires, the other has wider 28mm internal rims and 2.5" tires, at a reasonable weight. The wider set is kind of cool if I'm riding somewhere exceptionally rocky, but it's pretty slow overall - slow rolling, slow to accelerating, slow handling. The smaller set is by far the better all around choice, even in technical terrain. I even went to a Maxxis IKON 2.35" micro knobby in the back, paired with a 2.3" DHF in the front. Rolls better and gives up very little in traction in the rear.

    Schwable wil be offering a 27.5+ nobby nic and rocket ron. Weights will be about 700-900g (claimed) depending on model. About the same as my single ply 26"x2.5" maxxis DHF's....except my DHF's have full knobs and won't wear out (cut sidewall, rip knobs, etc) in 10 miles of riding on rocky terrain like the schwables will. My wheels are a bit heavier than a modern wider wheelset.

    So, I've already determined that I already don't need more than 26x2.3 on a 25mm internal rim for pretty technical trail riding......are fools, gapers and slow people going to be the only ones riding 27.5+ next year?

  2. #2
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    Seems bikes and parts have gotten so good and so reliable the industry needs something to sell. 27.5+ strikes me as superbly stupid. I ride my fat bike for fun but would never consider it as a daily driver, the wheels are just so sluggish.
    I rip the groomed on tele gear

  3. #3
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    + size are not fat bikes.

    I have rode 27.5 plus, but I have spent some time on a Rigid Krampus with 29x3.0 tires. It rides far faster than a fat bike, but with more tire shock absorbation than 2.3-2.5 29er tire.

  4. #4
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    So it's like cheap suspension? Or is it about the traction? Or both? I have never really wished for more traction since going to a 29, but that might be my local trails as well.
    I rip the groomed on tele gear

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by detrusor View Post
    So it's like cheap suspension? Or is it about the traction? Or both? I have never really wished for more traction since going to a 29, but that might be my local trails as well.
    both

  6. #6
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    27.5+.....has the industry gone full moron?

    Who cares. Don't buy it if you don't want it.

    I wouldn't buy one personally. But I do find it funny how people are so personally offended by a product being made available on the market.

    Also, compare to a heavy steel hardtail. That hardtail is slow but has a certain ride quality, and people have decided they're cool and desirable. Plus tires are also slow and heavy and offer a unique ride, yet the majority have decided they're lame and unacceptable. To each their own.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by detrusor View Post
    industry needs something to sell.
    Winner, winner. Industry people will tell you until they're blue in the face about why you need 4 different bikes with different wheel/tire sizes. Hell, even one of my riding buddy's is already buying up a 27.5+ frame and forks. This is same guy who swore he'd never need another bike besides a full suspension 26er. The bike industry just needs to sell shit that you think you need.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
    both
    Suspension without damping other than the energy absorbed by deforming and rebounding the tire.......which is energy lost.

    Traction at the loss off corner stability and keeping the tire on a rim...... reiterating that people don't really need supported tires in turns because no one actually goes through them very fast.

    Traction also at the loss of momentum on mellower trails as more drag is created in the dirt

    Gotta tell the whole story

    Quote Originally Posted by Damian Sanders View Post
    ......are fools, gapers and slow people going to be the only ones riding 27.5+ next year?
    Pretty much. Mostly just everyone on mtbr who spends more time geeking over having the cool new shit than actually getting better at riding.

    2.8 tires on trail bikes are mostly appealing to the market segment who never already tried this on dh bikes. They suck if your goal is speed and efficiency. They worked well for slow riding and everyone who actually wanted to go fast through corners hated them....because they were far too unsupported without running obscene pressures that turned them into balloons. And that's with very well supported dh casing structures, and 7-8" of damped travel to compensate for the bounce. So now you're supposed to believe that a much thinner tire (because hey, it weighs the same as a 2.3) is going to NOT do this. They'll be less work to pedal and accelerate than a gazoloddi from 1999 because they're thinner casings but they're going to be even more bouncy and weak because they don't have all that sidewall support.

    No one is going to argue that traction isn't improved. But it's low speed traction. From what I've already experienced riding 4.8 tires on a fat bike, the neutered tread patterns that everyone's making even with the 27.5+ stuff, they're really not any better at speed on real trails. They still break loose and are kind of terrifying when they do. Better at low pressures climbing and slow riding on super rough stuff sure..... That rocky mountain dirt touring bike is probably the best application for 'em IMO. Bigger volume and diameter tires are nice on your prostate. If I were spending a month on a bike pulling a bob trailer without any days off riding real trails, I'd buy one.

    As usual the thing that's annoying is not because anyone's "forced" to buy anything. It's that (some) companies are falling all over themselves to get this shit to market at the expense of everything else. Meanwhile, Maxxis still doesn't even have half their good treads/compounds available in 27.5normal but hey...that 27.5+ "minion" is coming, Schwalbe still can't come up with a soft compound that doesn't fall apart, NO ONE has come up with dh tires that weigh less than 3 lbs...........

    If they're going to do 2.8-3.0 tires, they should do 24+ so that the wheels are strong and still accelerate worth a damn. Because hey it was already tried and sucked and that seems to be the way forward
    Besides the comet that killed the dinosaurs nothing has destroyed a species faster than entitled white people.-ajp

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo View Post
    As usual the thing that's annoying is not because anyone's "forced" to buy anything. It's that (some) companies are falling all over themselves to get this shit to market at the expense of everything else.
    It also makes everything more expensive.
    Remind me. We'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.

  10. #10
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    My theory with this crazy roll out of 27.5+ is that the industry is spazzing out to make sure that the cigarette smoking, whiskey pounding weirdos at Surly don't beat everyone to the punch yet again. I love those weirdos. See: fat bikes, cargo bikes, 29+, singlespeed/fixie parts and accessories, unpretentious touring/cx/urban/do-all bikes.

    I think the whole industry/consumer ecosystem works better when small, nimble companies take a flyer on some weird shit and then it's easier to gauge response and demand. When big companies go mental because they don't want to get beat by another big company, we get this.
    No doubt, 27+ bikes are not a do-all for fast aggressive riders like the woo or Enduro-ists (except for Nate Riddle, who is compelled to ride the +tires with his name on them)but I'm sure they would be fun as shit for a huge segment of riders who don't care about top speeds, drifting, jumping, racing, etc. Some people just like to go pedal through the woods with their buddies at non hurtful speeds.

    I'm confounded by the onslaught of 27.5+, but I think the Krampus is one of the mostest funnest bikes I've ever ridden, and cannot be trifled with.

  11. #11
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    ^Annnnd right there is why most of the bike industry sucks


    Whiskey swigger: "dude we should totally build this......we can run over small children"

    Every bike company that employs more than 20 people: "What? What's that? Something people are buying? Hey check out ours, it's right here.....um......right here in a sec......be right back. Two weeks!"

    Internet biking: "What? What's that? A new thing I can buy? It must be better, they wouldn't make it if it weren't, it's obviously where the industry is heading. I haven't tried it but here, take this large bag of money"

    Every bike company that employs more than 20 people: "I mean really, this isn't conspiracy. We're just reacting to consumer demand. People are buying this stuff so it obviously has merit. It's where consumer demand is heading"

    Whiskey swigger (still the only guy who's even ridden the damn thing): "You gotta be fucking kidding me........again? *giggle*"
    Last edited by kidwoo; 07-01-2015 at 01:14 PM.
    Besides the comet that killed the dinosaurs nothing has destroyed a species faster than entitled white people.-ajp

  12. #12
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    If you don't like it, don't buy it. Why does anyone give a shit?

  13. #13
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    As an old fart who pedals through the woods at non hurtful speeds I'm baby fat curious.

    If only there was a magic set of hubs that could work in my fat bike and my normal bike I'd build a set of wheels and give it a try. Two frames + three sets of wheels = four bikes.

    Or something like that, pass the whiskey please

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ticketchecker View Post
    If only there was a magic set of hubs that could work in my fat bike and my normal bike
    Well at least somebody finally asked for it.
    Besides the comet that killed the dinosaurs nothing has destroyed a species faster than entitled white people.-ajp

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by detrusor View Post
    Seems bikes and parts have gotten so good and so reliable the industry needs something to sell. 27.5+ strikes me as superbly stupid. I ride my fat bike for fun but would never consider it as a daily driver, the wheels are just so sluggish.
    Exactly how I feel about 29ers and 275ers.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by detrusor View Post
    I ride my fat bike for fun but would never consider it as a daily driver, the wheels are just so sluggish.
    Depends on where you ride daily?

  17. #17
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    Remember back when 85mm wide skis were only for pow days and anyone riding them as an everyday ski was a retard/beater/poser?
    ...tricks deserve applause, style deserves respect

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by rip View Post
    Remember back when 85mm wide skis were only for pow days and anyone riding them as an everyday ski was a retard/beater/poser?
    Different sport.

    That said I could see my dad buying a 27.5+ and having a blast. He just rides for fitness and fun. If something makes riding easier/more comfortable and safer, he's probably all about it. Put another way, the only rock gap he'll send is on the golf course.

    I really don't think this is that big of a deal with exception of all the tire companies having to pump out molds like crazy.

    J

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post
    Exactly how I feel about 29ers and 275ers.
    Eye roll. Even if it's not your thing, those other sizes have their place.

    I do agree this + shit is stupid, though.

  20. #20
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    Where do super wide rims like ibis's 741 carbon rim fit in? You still can run a 2.35 minion DHF on there. So, does it make the bike sluggish or just add extra grip? Or do you then add 27.5+ tires and implode your brain?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo View Post
    ^Annnnd right there is why most of the bike industry sucks


    Whiskey swigger: "dude we should totally build this......we can run over small children"

    Every bike company that employs more than 20 people: "What? What's that? Something people are buying? Hey check out ours, it's right here.....um......right here in a sec......be right back. Two weeks!"

    Internet biking: "What? What's that? A new thing I can buy? It must be better, they wouldn't make it if it weren't, it's obviously where the industry is heading. I haven't tried it but here, take this large bag of money"

    Every bike company that employs more than 20 people: "I mean really, this isn't conspiracy. We're just reacting to consumer demand. People are buying this stuff so it obviously has merit. It's where consumer demand is heading"

    Whiskey swigger (still the only guy who's even ridden the damn thing): "You gotta be fucking kidding me........again? *giggle*"


    Ha ha ha. perfect.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffreyJim in 1997? View Post
    Different sport.

    That said I could see my dad buying powder skis and having a blast. He just skis for fitness and fun. If something makes skiing powder easier/more comfortable and safer, he's probably all about it. Put another way, the only moguls he'll see are on wall street.

    J
    Hmm you don't say?

    Not trying to pick on you but seems like a perfect analogy to me. Yeah race skis/skinny tires are faster on a race course/packed down singletrack and also can be ridden in all conditions by skilled riders. But there is no denying the possibilities opened up by the more float ie bigger tires provides. A byproduct of this is it bumps up what terminal intermediates are capable of riding. Just like full suspension, modern creek boats, powder skis.
    ...tricks deserve applause, style deserves respect

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rip View Post
    Hmm you don't say?

    Not trying to pick on you but seems like a perfect analogy to me. Yeah race skis/skinny tires are faster on a race course/packed down singletrack and also can be ridden in all conditions by skilled riders. But there is no denying the possibilities opened up by the more float ie bigger tires provides. A byproduct of this is it bumps up what terminal intermediates are capable of riding. Just like full suspension, modern creek boats, powder skis.
    I see your analogy, trust me, I do. I've often wondered what I could do on a fat bike V-10 with uber slack angles and an avalanche fork. Would "real" big mountain mountain biking become a reality for the masses? Nope. different sport. One main reason I stand so strongly behind what I'm saying: Dirt. Dirt is NEVER going to be the same as powder. For the purpose of debate and ignoring the physical differences between the sports, lets agree there are types of loam that could be argued are close to sweet sweet virgin pow - which is great. But then the problem becomes people laying tracks down wherever they want that don't.go.away. Ever. We already have access problems as is...

    Best way to look at this - note what people do and where people go on a sled. (which isn't nearly as capable as skis on the way down - nobody is riding sleds down spines in AK). Then note what people are doing on dirtbikes. Dirtbikes and mountain bikes are pretty damn similar in terms of where they'll go. Sleds/Timbersleds go places dirt bikes can't simply cause of the whole snow component. Skis a step further. Or hell, note how well snowbikes work in virgin pow? Its pathetic.

    It will make riding easier for your intermediates. In some capacity. But will it push the sport? Not unless you are a middle aged CPA who just "picked up the sport". This we agree on!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rip View Post
    Hmm you don't say?

    Not trying to pick on you but seems like a perfect analogy to me. Yeah race skis/skinny tires are faster on a race course/packed down singletrack and also can be ridden in all conditions by skilled riders. But there is no denying the possibilities opened up by the more float ie bigger tires provides. A byproduct of this is it bumps up what terminal intermediates are capable of riding. Just like full suspension, modern creek boats, powder skis.
    You remember who came up with the first really wide, rockered ski?

    It was a skier. A really good one.

    This is different. And that's why it's different.

    And let's be honest, skis really were that bad in real snow. Modern bikes aren't in their respective environment.

    Those spatulas were good for everyone to a degree, if not directly, then what they influenced later. I'm just hoping the net effect from this is once everyone realizes 800 gram 3.0 tires are pieces of shit that fall apart and get holes ripped in them, tire companies go back to working on real solutions for stronger and lighter materials...........for fast tires.
    Besides the comet that killed the dinosaurs nothing has destroyed a species faster than entitled white people.-ajp

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo View Post
    You remember who came up with the first really wide, rockered ski?

    It was a skier. A really good one.

    This is different. And that's why it's different.

    And let's be honest, skis really were that bad in real snow. Modern bikes aren't in their respective environment.

    Those spatulas were good for everyone to a degree, if not directly, then what they influenced later. I'm just hoping the net effect from this is once everyone realizes 800 gram 3.0 tires are pieces of shit that fall apart and get holes ripped in them, tire companies go back to working on real solutions for stronger and lighter materials...........for fast tires.
    Yeah, woo's point is better...

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