27.5+.....has the industry gone full moron?

**Lindahl** · 07-02-2015, 02:18 PM

I found Ardents to be poopy in turns, as well. Much happier running DHFs front and rear. Hell, on my lightweight trail bike, I feel like my flyweight Maxxis Advantage 2.1s corner far better - at the very least more predictable. Curiously they seem to have pretty flimsy sidewalls though and have folded them on occasion.

**rip** · 07-02-2015, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by RootSkier

I had figured there was at least a 90% chance that it's happening because I am lord king of the beater kooks, but maybe I can just blame it on the Ardent that came up front?

We'll just assume this new whip must be a 27.5+ so if you are having traction problems the only logical solution is that you need a new fatbike Mr Beater King.

I'd recommend tossing that 'new whip' into the nearest recycling bin.

**MagnificentUnicorn** · 07-02-2015, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by RootSkier

Interesting. I was just thinking about this because I got a new whip (first in 10+ years), have about a dozen rides on it, and I am absolutely terrified about the front tire washing out after a few near misses on super dry and not that sharp of corners.

I had figured there was at least a 90% chance that it's happening because I am lord king of the beater kooks, but maybe I can just blame it on the Ardent that came up front?

Originally Posted by Lindahl

I found Ardents to be poopy in turns, as well. Much happier running DHFs front and rear. Hell, on my lightweight trail bike, I feel like my flyweight Maxxis Advantage 2.1s corner far better - at the very least more predictable. Curiously they seem to have pretty flimsy sidewalls though and have folded them on occasion.

But Damien assures us that Ardents are highly regarded.

**RootSkier** · 07-02-2015, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by AaronWright

But Damien assures us that Ardents are highly regarded.

Yeah, but as rip noted, it's a 27.5 so it obviously sucks.

**TahoeJ** · 07-02-2015, 03:29 PM

I had some Ardents... they weren't that bad but definitely prone to washing out as already mentioned. Switched to High Roller II in the back and Minion DHII in the front and now I feel stupid that I wasted as much time as I did on the Ardents.

It might depend on the trails you ride, but especially in rocky terrain I can definitely tell the difference between 26 - 27.5 and 29. More so when climbing than descending for sure, but I don't think it's all just a bunch of hype. Some of it is, of course. I do think the lack of part continuity for 26ers is pretty lame, though.

**JeffreyJim** · 07-02-2015, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by Damian Sanders

Ardents are widely regarded as pretty good tires.

What you are repeating about the rim width thing is the "industry line" and internet forum pseudo science. Wider rims do not actually provide any more support to the sidewall, against pinching the sidewall - that is physically impossible. More air volume will reduce pinch flats at the same air pressure though. They will also keep the tire from folding over a bit, but test show it's only a slight difference. More importantly, they put the tire in the wrong shape, so you can't lean the the bike to corner agressively with the tire. DH racers run 25mm internal rims, for a reason - end of discussion.

I disagree to a point.

My 25mm internal width rims and fairly robust "enduro" tire has created a situation where at 30ish psi I experience some tire roll or "squirm". I do not notice this issue even at lower pressures with my 30mm rims. That 5mm can make a bigger difference than one thinks.

So yeah, while its not giving more "support' to the sidewall it is changing the shape of the tire. And that shape is more supportive due to volume, sidewall height and a less rounded profile when it comes to trying to smash your bike into corners.

The real issue is making said rims work with the current crop of tires without overly squaring them off.

Point is, I'd bet dollars to donuts your "new" standard rim will be 30-35mm in the next few years.

J

**AKbruin** · 07-02-2015, 06:00 PM

Sometimes I feel guilty for not having really strong opinions on mountain biking tech.

**BushwackerinPA** · 07-02-2015, 06:47 PM

Ikons have more lateral grip than Ardents......and they roll faster.

**gravitylover** · 07-02-2015, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by rip

... the only logical solution is that you need a new fatbike Mr Beater King.

end thread

Fatbike, just get a fatbike.

**Eluder** · 07-03-2015, 09:57 PM

Begin Friday night buzz rant

What pisses me off is why make new tire sizes when distributors can't even keep the current ones in stock in June... Fucking June. Currently if you're a dealer you can't order a 27.5 Minion or HR2 from 2 of the larger distributors. Its ok thought they will have them back in stock at the end of September... the end of Fucking September. All these choices come with a cost to people that actually use this shit.
(shit its July now, but still they didn't have them 3 weeks ago in Fucking June)

End Friday night buzz rant

**BushwackerinPA** · 07-04-2015, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by rludes025

Begin Friday night buzz rant

What pisses me off is why make new tire sizes when distributors can't even keep the current ones in stock in June... Fucking June. Currently if you're a dealer you can't order a 27.5 Minion or HR2 from 2 of the larger distributors. Its ok thought they will have them back in stock at the end of September... the end of Fucking September. All these choices come with a cost to people that actually use this shit.
(shit its July now, but still they didn't have them 3 weeks ago in Fucking June)

End Friday night buzz rant

chainreaction has them cheaper them cost.......talk about another fucked up thing.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/u...Q&gclsrc=aw.ds

I personally want this tire.

http://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb12020923/p5pb12020923.jpg

**scrublover** · 07-04-2015, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by ticketchecker

Scrub, you try the Wiz on the front or back? I just got one, thinking about a set of blunt 35's with this in my Trance 26r. May not work in the rear but def in front.

Just tried it on the front. Bought two, but didn't quite have enough clearance in back. Tried it on the hardtail. No interest in tires this big on the FS bikes.

Keeping them around for use on the fat bike, I guess.

**TahoeJ** · 07-04-2015, 02:06 PM

I just ordered a carbon Santa Cruz Bronson which is now a 27.5... it's a pretty sweet bike, but does this make me a gaper now? Or am I okay because it's not 27.5+? So hard to keep track of what's acceptable. ;-)

**ticketchecker** · 07-04-2015, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by scrublover

Keeping them around for use on the fat bike, I guess.

Thanks, out with an acl this year so getting bored looking at my bikes.

Carry on

**gravitylover** · 07-04-2015, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by TahoeJ

I just ordered a carbon Santa Cruz Bronson which is now a 27.5... it's a pretty sweet bike, but does this make me a gaper now? Or am I okay because it's not 27.5+? So hard to keep track of what's acceptable. ;-)

A long time ago I accepted that I will most likely do the unacceptable. It's inevitable. I'm ok with it now

Get a fatbike. You need to add a few more layers of tire size confusion.

**Damian Sanders** · 07-06-2015, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by AaronWright

It may be the current industry line, but it's something I've been using on road, cross and mtb for about 20 years now. It works, and the change in tire shape you're talking about is insignificant. The amount of lean it would take to make a difference is never achieved in mtbing.

Are bicycle tires, mtb tire specifically, some how magically different than other types of pneumatic tires? In any application, a rim(wheel) that is wider will support the sidewall better and prevent rolling. A 2.25" tire has the same volume whether it's mounted on a 25 mm rim or a 28 mm rim.

It's amazing how you can be so completely wrong.

**gramboh** · 07-06-2015, 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by kidwoo

That is new. And it is taking away resources from other elements of the sport that tend to be what geniunely drives technological progression.....helping people go faster, farther and longer. This isn't about that. And it's coming from the industry, not from athletes sitting there going "help me do this, I know it's possible but I'm limited" which is what normally drives real change, in any sport. This is about selling more shit to to people because fat bikes have sold fairly well, and then justifying it by saying 'it's for beginners' as if there were never beginners before. That's not the same thing as saying "look at this brand new wheelsize" which seems to be catching you up. No one is saying that. It's a movement (or an attempt at movement that no one asked for) of baseline standards within the industry. It's different.

If you say 'they're not new" and quote sheldon brown again, I'm going to find a way to make fun of that and use a penny farthing to do so.

This is the part that bugs me. R&D, production, inventory, marketing dollars being spent on this stuff in a relatively small market. Will + size be profitable? So many more SKUs to carry between bikes, forks, hubs, wheels, tires etc.

**MagnificentUnicorn** · 07-06-2015, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by Damian Sanders

It's amazing how you can be so completely wrong.

What part is wrong?

**westoxified** · 07-06-2015, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by AaronWright

What part is wrong?

the volume part. trapezoid vs square...

**Damian Sanders** · 07-06-2015, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by AaronWright

What part is wrong?

All of it.

completely
adverb

1. To the fullest extent:≡
absolutely, all, altogether, dead, entirely, flat, fully, just, perfectly, quite, thoroughly, totally, utterly, well, wholly.
≡
Informal: clean, clear.

Idioms: in toto, through and through.

2. In a complete manner:≡
exhaustively, intensively, thoroughly.

Idioms: in and out, inside out, up and down.

**muted** · 07-06-2015, 09:33 AM

I rode this weekend with someone on a new hardtail Trek Stache that is 29+. Hearing him talk about how fun it was, makes me believe there is a market for + sized bikes. I wasn't so sure about the trend after reading this thread last week.

My take on why they are a good thing is not everyone is riding just to beat their strava times, or doing 2 hour uphills, or riding tech trails where a different rig would be more efficient. Weird, I know, but some people ride more for fun first, and may buy these + bikes.

**TahoeJ** · 07-06-2015, 09:53 AM

http://www.bikemag.com/gear/mean-27-plus-29-plus-bikes/

Good article in general. I'll reserve judgment until I've actually tried one, but I'm pretty skeptical of this...

"Other companies, however, have a decidedly different take. The most obvious of which is Trek Bicycles. A few days ago, Trek unveiled its new Stache plus-size hardtail. The bike wears 29+ tires and has an entirely different mission statement than the Sherpa.

“We designed this bike to rail and be ridden hard,” says Trek senior product manager John Riley. “It’s not meant for a beginner or a novice. This is the ultimate of the fun, play hardtail for people looking to pop off stuff, rail the bike and pick up speed. The extra floatation and traction just gives the bike more versatility than in the past.”

**MagnificentUnicorn** · 07-06-2015, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Damian Sanders

All of it.

completely
adverb

1. To the fullest extent:≡
absolutely, all, altogether, dead, entirely, flat, fully, just, perfectly, quite, thoroughly, totally, utterly, well, wholly.
≡
Informal: clean, clear.

Idioms: in toto, through and through.

2. In a complete manner:≡
exhaustively, intensively, thoroughly.

Idioms: in and out, inside out, up and down.

That's what I thought. What I posted is how things actually work.
The narrower rim with wider tire was something that was first talked about for mtbs in the early '90s. What I and most people I knew found was that it increased tire deformation and pinch flats that is unless you increased tire pressure which defeated the purpose of a fatter tire. Do you remember when Josh Deetz and Bontrager were selling road rims with a section removed and re sized for 26" mtbs? That didn't last. I think we're splitting hairs here anyway, not a huge difference between 25-28 mm inner rim width or 28-30mm. 25-30mm difference probably matters but I would take the wider rim.

**jm2e** · 07-06-2015, 11:32 AM

My only opinions on this would be that of mild curiosity for something different and seconding Bunion's frustration with perfectly good older technology becoming more difficult to source.
I'm actually more irritated with new "standards" like hub sizes and BB types that make working on and upgrading my own bike more difficult.
Realistically, 27.5+ isn't going to make a big disruptive industry shift like the one that 29ers have had on 26" tire availability.
At the end of the day, I can't blame the bike business for wanting to make money. Their job is not to support tradition or hard core athletes or some vague pure essence of the sport. It's to turn a profit.

**Damian Sanders** · 07-06-2015, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by muted

I rode this weekend with someone on a new hardtail Trek Stache that is 29+. Hearing him talk about how fun it was, makes me believe there is a market for + sized bikes. I wasn't so sure about the trend after reading this thread last week.

My take on why they are a good thing is not everyone is riding just to beat their strava times, or doing 2 hour uphills, or riding tech trails where a different rig would be more efficient. Weird, I know, but some people ride more for fun first, and may buy these + bikes.

You're right, that's really what it's all about. Here's my new whip: