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  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron johnson View Post
    It is only cheap if it has fossil fuel backups. Remove the backups and it is obscenely expensive.
    Not as expensive as the cost of Miami and NYC being under water.

  2. #602
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    July 2019 was the hottest month ever recorded on the planet. A weather station north of the Arctic Circle just recorded highest temp ever above Arctic Circle - 94.6degrees F.

    Hmm, seems like going all in to get off fossil fuels might be worth considering.

  3. #603
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    The role of the Koch brothers in sponsoring climate change denial
    https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily...term=TNY_Daily

  4. #604
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    WMD,

    It's incredible how much credit you give these politicians' plans. They aren't really plans, they are just goals. They give no details on how to achieve them, how much they will cost, and if they are even technically feasible. It's all pie in the sky BS that headline suckers like you fall for. I'm sure you were in favor of Trump's tax plan because he said the loss in income tax revenue would be made up by the economic boost right? I grew up in NY and would bet big money that they won't get anywhere close to their 2030 goals, let alone 2050.

    On batteries: https://www.wired.com/story/better-b...-jason-pontin/

    "Even if lithium-ion batteries were as cheap as possible, California would have to spend $360 billion on storage to satisfy Brown’s imperative. Nationally, storing 12 hours of energy would cost $2.5 trillion, according to another study in Energy and Environmental Science. Overall, energy costs would increase from $49 per megawatt-hour at 50 percent to $1,612 at 100 percent. The economics are implausible; selling the economics to consumers, impossible."

    "When I spoke to [Bill] Gates a couple of years ago, he told me, “I’m in five battery companies, and five out of five are having a tough time. When people think about energy solutions, you can’t assume there will be a storage miracle.""

  5. #605
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    Quote Originally Posted by WMD View Post
    July 2019 was the hottest month ever recorded on the planet. A weather station north of the Arctic Circle just recorded highest temp ever above Arctic Circle - 94.6degrees F.

    Hmm, seems like going all in to get off fossil fuels might be worth considering.
    By hottest month ever recorded on the planet you mean the hottest month in the last ~150 years for which we have temperature records. Some of that record is pretty spotty, especially with how limited the recording stations above the arctic circle are as you go back in time.

    Just for fun, please find me any aspect of climate that could be deemed out of the ordinary in the context of the last 10,000 years. Temperature, floods, hurricanes, whatever.

  6. #606
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    I'm not sharing politicians plans but plans from scientists.

    The goals won't be met if people listen to deniers like you. The problem is political, not technological.

    Personally I choose to look leave a livable planet for my kids. Clearly you choose money only.

  7. #607
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    Not as expensive as the cost of Miami and NYC being under water.
    So we should spend trillions of dollars trying to achieve these 100% non carbon goals. Meanwhile the rest of the world does nothing, and Miami and NYC still end up under water. Maybe that money could be better spent adapting?

  8. #608
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    Quote Originally Posted by WMD View Post
    I'm not sharing politicians plans but plans from scientists.

    The goals won't be met if people listen to deniers like you. The problem is political, not technological.

    Personally I choose to look leave a livable planet for my kids. Clearly you choose money only.
    Again those aren't plans, they are goals.

    It's clear the root of the problem is technological as I have already demonstrated. If non carbon energy was cheaper and more reliable than fossil fuels it becomes an easy sell politically. You think I would be involved in this argument if that was the case? I just love fossil fuels or something?

  9. #609
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron johnson View Post
    So we should spend trillions of dollars trying to achieve these 100% non carbon goals. Meanwhile the rest of the world does nothing, and Miami and NYC still end up under water. Maybe that money could be better spent adapting?
    You are extraordinarily wise. I wish our forefathers had said the same thing and just surrendered to the axis powers. German is such a beautiful language anyway or maybe Japanese for the westerners. Here in Iowa the food sucks imagine if we had real Italian. We fought a war for what exactly? So we could add and subtract with fractions and measure gas by the gallon and speak English. And now we have a two bit racist dictator running the show anyway. What a waste. We should have just folded and adapted.

    Thank you sir for bringing the deep thought to TGR. You are a true leader in training.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  10. #610
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron johnson View Post
    By hottest month ever recorded on the planet you mean the hottest month in the last ~150 years for which we have temperature records. Some of that record is pretty spotty, especially with how limited the recording stations above the arctic circle are as you go back in time.

    Just for fun, please find me any aspect of climate that could be deemed out of the ordinary in the context of the last 10,000 years. Temperature, floods, hurricanes, whatever.
    Jesus fuck dude. Ordinary compared to what?

    By the same token, can you justify how ordinary it actually has been? On what are you basing your definition of ordinary? The last 150 years we have temperature records, some of which are limited in spatio-temporal coverage in remote areas especially as you go back in time?!

  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron johnson View Post
    Again those aren't plans, they are goals.

    It's clear the root of the problem is technological as I have already demonstrated. If non carbon energy was cheaper and more reliable than fossil fuels it becomes an easy sell politically. You think I would be involved in this argument if that was the case? I just love fossil fuels or something?
    You make money off of fossil fuels. So o guess you like them more than people.

  12. #612
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron johnson View Post
    Again those aren't plans, they are goals.

    It's clear the root of the problem is technological as I have already demonstrated. If non carbon energy was cheaper and more reliable than fossil fuels it becomes a major threat to the billionaire class heavily invested on energy that can be bottled and sold for a premium. You think I would be involved in this argument if that was the case? I just love fossil fuels or something?
    Fixed it for you. By nature, renewables aren't going to be nearly as wealth producing as fossil fuels are. It's kind of like trying to make money off a printer that runs on freely available ink and lasts 30 years but doesn't cost very much to make and can't easily be patent protected. It's a lost market to investors.

    Anything that much of a threat to their cash cow gets buried by them in the form of either buying the patents and burying them, outright killing the people with the knowledge to make it feasible, or lobbying their bought and paid for government officials to block the adoption of these competitive threats..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  13. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglymoney View Post
    You are extraordinarily wise. I wish our forefathers had said the same thing and just surrendered to the axis powers. German is such a beautiful language anyway or maybe Japanese for the westerners. Here in Iowa the food sucks imagine if we had real Italian. We fought a war for what exactly? So we could add and subtract with fractions and measure gas by the gallon and speak English. And now we have a two bit racist dictator running the show anyway. What a waste. We should have just folded and adapted.

    Thank you sir for bringing the deep thought to TGR. You are a true leader in training.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    No deep thought required. Just a healthy dose of reality.

  14. #614
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWFlow View Post
    Jesus fuck dude. Ordinary compared to what?

    By the same token, can you justify how ordinary it actually has been? On what are you basing your definition of ordinary? The last 150 years we have temperature records, some of which are limited in spatio-temporal coverage in remote areas especially as you go back in time?!
    Ordinary compared to the climate of the last 10,000. The period of human civilization. Surely there must be something that jumps off the page given all this hysteria.

    1 degree of warming in the last 150 years. That is not unusual. Most of the past 10000 years have been warmer than it is today.

  15. #615
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    Quote Originally Posted by WMD View Post
    You make money off of fossil fuels. So o guess you like them more than people.
    Even if that was the case (its not) arguing with randoms on a small forum will have no effect on my bottom line.

  16. #616
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    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Fixed it for you. By nature, renewables aren't going to be nearly as wealth producing as fossil fuels are. It's kind of like trying to make money off a printer that runs on freely available ink and lasts 30 years but doesn't cost very much to make and can't easily be patent protected. It's a lost market to investors.

    Anything that much of a threat to their cash cow gets buried by them in the form of either buying the patents and burying them, outright killing the people with the knowledge to make it feasible, or lobbying their bought and paid for government officials to block the adoption of these competitive threats..
    Highly speculative. The renewable tech needs lots of rare earth minerals. You think its impossible for mining conglomerates to form? We already have them and their profits aren't far from big oil. The printer might not cost a lot to make, but you need to make a ton of them. Plenty of money to be made in renewables.

  17. #617
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron johnson View Post
    Most of the past 10000 years have been warmer than it is today.
    You may be right, it's snowing here today.

    Yes, there have been periods (not in the instrumental record) that have approached or exceeded modern temperatures in parts of the world, but not as synchronously...and, I just realized that you already "don't believe" in attributional studies or said something to that effect earlier so it really isn't worth attempting to discuss.
    Last edited by NWFlow; 08-15-2019 at 05:07 PM.

  18. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWFlow View Post
    Wrong! It's snowing here today.

    Yes, there have been periods (not in the instrumental record) that have approached or exceeded modern temperatures in parts of the world, but not as synchronously...and, I just realized that you already "don't believe" in attributional studies or said something to that effect earlier so it really isn't worth attempting to discuss.
    You're going to have to back up the "not synchronously" part with some evidence. It's impossible to believe in attribution studies when you can't find any increasing trend in frequency or intensity of extreme weather events from historical data of the last 150 years. If the IPCC can't find it, you can bet its not there.

    And actually there is a period in the instrumental record that has approached or exceeded modern temperatures in the US. Check the heat of the 1930's. Many US high temperature records were set during that decade, it also had by far the the worst heat waves in US history: http://perhapsallnatural.blogspot.co...-heatwave.html

  19. #619
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron johnson View Post
    You're going to have to back up the "not synchronously" part with some evidence. It's impossible to believe in attribution studies when you can't find any increasing trend in frequency or intensity of extreme weather events from historical data of the last 150 years. If the IPCC can't find it, you can bet its not there.

    And actually there is a period in the instrumental record that has approached or exceeded modern temperatures in the US. Check the heat of the 1930's. Many US high temperature records were set during that decade, it also had by far the the worst heat waves in US history: http://perhapsallnatural.blogspot.co...-heatwave.html
    Ohh Ron Johnson!!

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kkwiQmGWK4c


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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Keystone is fucking lame. But, deadly.

  20. #620
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    That was ....puuuurrrrfect.

    Oh, and this global warming thread is getting out of hand.

  21. #621
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron johnson View Post
    No deep thought required. Just a healthy dose of reality.
    Take your own advise. Get away from climate denier sites. You sound like an illogical idiot. You argue the temperature reading sites, not the actual temps. You argue that the temps have been this high before, but leave out the fact that the rate of increase we have now could only have been possible hundreds of years ago, or longer, from a catastrophic incident like a meteor or volcano

  22. #622
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2skier112 View Post
    Take your own advise. Get away from climate denier sites. You sound like an illogical idiot. You argue the temperature reading sites, not the actual temps. You argue that the temps have been this high before, but leave out the fact that the rate of increase we have now could only have been possible hundreds of years ago, or longer, from a catastrophic incident like a meteor or volcano
    I'd suggest staying out of a discussion you clearly have no clue about.

    "You argue the temperature reading sites, not the actual temps."

    -I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

    "You argue that the temps have been this high before, but leave out the fact that the rate of increase we have now could only have been possible hundreds of years ago, or longer, from a catastrophic incident like a meteor or volcano"

    -This isn't close to true. Please take a look for yourself at the temperature record of the last 10,000 years. The temperature spikes during the Younger Dryas (12,800 - 13,200 years ago) were likely caused by comets. That was a 12 degree celsius temperature change in ~100 years or less, talk about real climate change.

  23. #623
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron johnson View Post
    "You argue that the temps have been this high before, but leave out the fact that the rate of increase we have now could only have been possible hundreds of years ago, or longer, from a catastrophic incident like a meteor or volcano"

    -This isn't close to true. Please take a look for yourself at the temperature record of the last 10,000 years. The temperature spikes during the Younger Dryas (12,800 - 13,200 years ago) were likely caused by comets. That was a 12 degree celsius temperature change in ~100 years or less, talk about real climate change.
    Wait, what? k2skier112 mentioned "catastrophic incident[s] like a meteor or volcano" and your response is to highlight a temperature spike "likely caused by comets." You are going to have to pick better cherries then that.



    Anyway, we have the Younger Dryas, a period when it was much colder, and we warm up. After that we kind of oscillate around a mean, sometimes it’s a little warmer sometimes it’s a little colder, that’s the climate thermostat. Different feedbacks allow things to get warmer and that allow things to cool down and so it oscillates around a mean. As we move towards present we have a couple of phenomenon called the medieval warm period and the Little Ice Age. Neither is terribly impressive in the larger scheme of things, we had much cooler period that lasted even longer within these fluctuations.

    The reason we talk about these is they occurred during recorded human history. During the medieval warm, the Vikings thought let’s settle Greenland and Iceland with cows and sheep etc. and there’s no sea ice blocking the land and then it got cold again and the colonies fail. That was result of 0.2° warmer over a short period of time, just a few hundred years, and it had huge impacts on these northern settlements on Greenland and Iceland.

    Then we go into the Little Ice Age about a degree colder, not a big drop in temperature and people in Europe were struggling because the glaciers started growing, they were overrunning cities hamlets and chalets and there are hundreds of paintings from this time period because it was chaos. In the US the rivers froze over, the rivers in Delaware for example. Washington was having a hard time with glaciers and ice in the river so these insignificant variations had big impacts on people.

    These are important to point out because small climate variations had impacts on society. As we look forward what will the impact be resulting from recent larger changes resulting from the relentless rise of atmospheric carbon dioxide.

  24. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Wait, what? k2skier112 mentioned "catastrophic incident[s] like a meteor or volcano" and your response is to highlight a temperature spike "likely caused by comets." You are going to have to pick better cherries then that.
    Name:  greenland.18kyr.gif
Views: 148
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    Notice the huge spike 12,000 years ago. That is likely the result of a comet. Now look at the last 10,000 years. Notice how constant the temperature has been compared to before 12,000 years ago.

  25. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron johnson View Post
    Name:  greenland.18kyr.gif
Views: 148
Size:  15.9 KB

    Notice the huge spike 12,000 years ago. That is likely the result of a comet. Now look at the last 10,000 years. Notice how constant the temperature has been compared to before 12,000 years ago.
    Right. All of that was addressed in the post above. Perhaps you responded while I was typing. In any event, maybe it was comet or maybe it was something else.


    Regardless, the Younger Dryas is a time period when things went back to full glacial conditions because ice was melting and things were getting warmer and all this meltwater from that giant ice sheet begins to pool up. We have a gigantic lake bigger than the Great Lakes combined it’s called quick glacial Lake Agassiz a giant meltwater Lake is filling up, some of it is trickling out into the Gulf going south through the Mississippi River but for the most part it’s just filling up, and the thing that’s keeping it from draining to the east is a dam of ice. At some point around 15,000 to 14,000 years ago that ice sheet broke and drained out into the North Atlantic.

    Currently the North Atlantic is part of a really important circulation pattern called thermohaline circulation so warm surface water from the tropics wants to reach equilibrium the tropics are warmer the poles are colder and as it’s doing that it is releasing heat into the atmosphere through evaporation. That’s why Europe is much warmer than it should be for its latitude because it is getting heat from this warm body of water that is making its way north so as it’s making its way north it is getting cooler because it’s losing its heat and it’s getting saltier because it is evaporating. Cold salty water sinks in that sinking in the North Atlantic is critical for this entire circulation pattern. If the water doesn’t sink it doesn’t push the system to keep circulating. That’s the main push. At one point scientists thought it was the temperature gradient but it’s really the thermohaline circulation pattern is hinged is contingent on that sinking saltwater in the North Atlantic.

    So if we take a giant pulse of fresh cold water into the North Atlantic then that thermohaline circulation pattern is shut off and that’s what happened. The influx of cold fresh water shut down the thermohaline circulation. So it stopped that distribution of global heat which plunged us back into near glacial conditions. This happened really quick and it lasted for about 1000 years and then within a century thermohaline circulation kicked back on and we proceeded to warm up into our interglacial conditions.

    Why do we care about thermohaline circulation and the distribution of global heat as it relates to climate? The concern now is the melting of the ice caps could have climate repercussions due to all the cold fresh melt water. There are buoys all over the ocean and they are monitoring temperature and circulation and we are seeing a slowing of thermohaline circulation. What we don’t know is if the slow melting of Greenland and the trickle of that water into the North Atlantic will eventually have the same impact as a giant pulse of fresh water. So we are sort of running an experiment that we don’t know what is going to happen.

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