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  1. #1551
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    "“Based on these results, I can more confidently state that there is no technical or economic barrier to transitioning the entire world to 100 percent clean renewable energy with a stable electric grid at low cost,” Jacobson said for his university press team at Stanford."

    https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/08...ewable-energy/

  2. #1552
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron johnson View Post
    The thing you are missing from those graphs is that historically CO2 levels have always lagged temperature by 800-1,000 years. When you see graphs with hundred thousand year+ timescales it appears that CO2 levels and temperature are moving together at the same time, but they are not. CO2 is lagging behind temp by 800-1,000 years. There is no evidence of CO2 ever driving earth's temperature in the historical record.
    Saying, "there is no evidence of CO2 ever driving earth's temperature in the historical record" is disingenuous even for Ron.


    - The fundamental theoretical physics, verified by extensive laboratory analysis, proves how CO2 and other greenhouse gasses absorb infrared heat at various temperatures and pressures.



    -- WRT to the record, Earth’s ice ages are thought to be caused by the wobbling of the planet’s orbit changing its orientation to the sun and causing more or less sunlight to hit higher latitudes, especially the polar regions. Under the right conditions as the earth warms up more CO2 is released into the atmosphere which explains, in part, why CO2 sometimes appears to initially lag a warming trend even though CO2 drives most of the warming. The opposite happens, the planet cools, if atmospheric carbon dioxide is low enough and polar regions receive less sunlight.

    What we've seen from past global temperature reconstructions is the warming and cooling is not uniform across time and space for the planet. Sometimes Antarctica begins warming or cooling for hundreds or even a thousand years before northern latitudes do the same, and vice versa.



    --- Even if a person disagrees, or even disagrees with the studies themselves, the fact remains there is plenty of evidence demonstrating CO2 drove the earth's temperature in the historical record.

    In the 2012 study linked below, for example, during the last deglaciation the earth started slowly warming due orbital change but then the vast majority of warming, something like 80-90%, occurred in response to CO2 increases.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/nature10915
    Last edited by MultiVerse; 09-16-2019 at 11:15 PM.

  3. #1553
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckless toboggan View Post
    Please don't besmirch the service and honour of our actual Veterans by bestowing the term "veteran" on coke addled, tar digger, assholes that only know greed.
    When you sober up, maybe you'll realize that there has always been and always will be more than one type of veteran other than military. And, dollars for donuts many veterans of various professions are drug addicts and drunks. We can guess which ron is .
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  4. #1554
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    I wonder if RT will realize her very existence is thanks to petroleum. Same for almost everyone on this tread.

  5. #1555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bromontane View Post
    I wonder if RT will realize her very existence is thanks to petroleum. Same for almost everyone on this tread.
    I wonder if Bromontane will realize that just because you were raised with it doesn't mean you owe it anything, and shouldn't work to remove it from your current existence. See: cigarettes that cause lung and heart disease, and cancer; acid rain due to leaded fuel; ozone loss due to use of CFCs; hitting children due to your shitty example and parenting; conversion therapy; women not being able to vote; Nazis, racism, slavery; global warming and climate change, environmental destruction and pollution, and illnesses such as asthma due to the use of fossel fuels; etc, etc, etc.

    ...who am I kidding, Bromontane isn't smart enough to realize it.
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  6. #1556
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    You're delusional. Your quality of life is predicated on someone, somewhere burning petroleum on your behalf. You can own that or keep identifying as the only white person in North America who doesn't owe their quality of life to fossil fuels.

    Advocate for reform & innovation? Great. Act like you're better than petroleum workers? Gtfo you fraud.

  7. #1557
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bromontane View Post
    You're delusional. Your quality of life is predicated on someone, somewhere owning slaves. You can own that or keep identifying as the only white person in North America who doesn't owe their quality of life to owning slaves.

    Advocate for reform & innovation? Great. Act like you're better than slave owners? Gtfo you fraud.
    You just keep on fucking that old, dead chicken bro.
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  8. #1558
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  9. #1559
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckless toboggan View Post
    ...who am I kidding, Bromontane isn't smart enough to realize it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bromontane View Post
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    Oh look. I was right.
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  10. #1560
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    Invert the politics & gentles and we have a match

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  11. #1561
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    IMO, the only way humanity will survive the next few centuries without massive hardship is either a) wealth distribution raises the standard of living so that population slows and even reverses around the world, or b) a massive technological advancement allows us to continue fucking up our planet’s ecosystem with impunity. Both will require a massive expansion of current and future energy production in the developing world now, including fossil fuels, and an acceptance of a (slightly) lower standard of living of the wealthiest 10% of the population. Putting our faith in the politicians to fix any of this is a fools errand.

    So, we are fucked. Especially us in the western world who have lived high on the hog for the past few generations. And we probably deserve it. Not that the developing world won’t suffer, but they have had far more practice at dealing with it.

    I wish you all the best in the coming apocalypse. At least the trolls will go back beneath the surface where they belong.

  12. #1562
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron johnson View Post
    I thought you might appreciate things in more simple terms. Here is a paper on CO2's logarithmic forcing: https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley....2/2014JD022466

    This isn't a controversial subject.
    A credible reference.

    So we agree its well studied, and the experts who study it say we have a problem and are advising society to take action.

  13. #1563
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCMtnHound View Post
    IMO, the only way humanity will survive the next few centuries without massive hardship is either a) wealth distribution raises the standard of living so that population slows and even reverses around the world, or b) a massive technological advancement allows us to continue fucking up our planet’s ecosystem with impunity. Both will require a massive expansion of current and future energy production in the developing world now, including fossil fuels, and an acceptance of a (slightly) lower standard of living of the wealthiest 10% of the population. Putting our faith in the politicians to fix any of this is a fools errand.

    So, we are fucked. Especially us in the western world who have lived high on the hog for the past few generations. And we probably deserve it. Not that the developing world won’t suffer, but they have had far more practice at dealing with it.

    I wish you all the best in the coming apocalypse. At least the trolls will go back beneath the surface where they belong.

    Well placed group.
    Mister Man! Mister Man! Mister Man. They left this card.

  14. #1564
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    Quote Originally Posted by WMD View Post
    1. Communities
    Climate change creates new risks and exacerbates existing vulnerabilities in communities across the United States, presenting growing challenges to human health and safety, quality of life, and the rate of economic growth.

    2. Economy
    Without substantial and sustained global mitigation and regional adaptation efforts, climate change is expected to cause growing losses to American infrastructure and property and impede the rate of economic growth over this century.


    3. Interconnected Impacts
    Climate change affects the natural, built, and social systems we rely on individually and through their connections to one another. These interconnected systems are increasingly vulnerable to cascading impacts that are often difficult to predict, threatening essential services within and beyond the Nationís borders.

    4. Actions to Reduce Risks
    Communities, governments, and businesses are working to reduce risks from and costs associated with climate change by taking action to lower greenhouse gas emissions and implement adaptation strategies. While mitigation and adaptation efforts have expanded substantially in the last four years, they do not yet approach the scale considered necessary to avoid substantial damages to the economy, environment, and human health over the coming decades.

    5. Water
    The quality and quantity of water available for use by people and ecosystems across the country are being affected by climate change, increasing risks and costs to agriculture, energy production, industry, recreation, and the environment.

    6. Health
    Impacts from climate change on extreme weather and climate-related events, air quality, and the transmission of disease through insects and pests, food, and water increasingly threaten the health and well-being of the American people, particularly populations that are already vulnerable.

    7. Indigenous Peoples
    Climate change increasingly threatens Indigenous communitiesí livelihoods, economies, health, and cultural identities by disrupting interconnected social, physical, and ecological systems.

    8. Ecosystems and Ecosystem Services
    Ecosystems and the benefits they provide to society are being altered by climate change, and these impacts are projected to continue. Without substantial and sustained reductions in global greenhouse gas emissions, transformative impacts on some ecosystems will occur; some coral reef and sea ice ecosystems are already experiencing such transformational changes.

    9. Agriculture
    Rising temperatures, extreme heat, drought, wildfire on rangelands, and heavy downpours are expected to increasingly disrupt agricultural productivity in the United States. Expected increases in challenges to livestock health, declines in crop yields and quality, and changes in extreme events in the United States and abroad threaten rural livelihoods, sustainable food security, and price stability.

    10. Infrastructure
    Our Nationís aging and deteriorating infrastructure is further stressed by increases in heavy precipitation events, coastal flooding, heat, wildfires, and other extreme events, as well as changes to average precipitation and temperature. Without adaptation, climate change will continue to degrade infrastructure performance over the rest of the century, with the potential for cascading impacts that threaten our economy, national security, essential services, and health and well-being.

    11. Oceans & Coasts
    Coastal communities and the ecosystems that support them are increasingly threatened by the impacts of climate change. Without significant reductions in global greenhouse gas emissions and regional adaptation measures, many coastal regions will be transformed by the latter part of this century, with impacts affecting other regions and sectors. Even in a future with lower greenhouse gas emissions, many communities are expected to suffer financial impacts as chronic high-tide flooding leads to higher costs and lower property values.


    12. Tourism and Recreation
    Outdoor recreation, tourist economies, and quality of life are reliant on benefits provided by our natural environment that will be degraded by the impacts of climate change in many ways.
    What a beautiful mix of word salad, misrepresentations, and straight up lies. The NCA makes the IPCC look like a denier group.

  15. #1565
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron johnson View Post
    What a beautiful mix of word salad, misrepresentations, and straight up lies.
    That's a fabulous description of your posts to this thread. Maybe you should show yourselves the door so the rational members of the board can continue bitching and moaning about how climate change is fucking up our ski seasons -- oh yeah, and threatening human society globally.

  16. #1566
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Saying, "there is no evidence of CO2 ever driving earth's temperature in the historical record" is disingenuous even for Ron.


    - The fundamental theoretical physics, verified by extensive laboratory analysis, proves how CO2 and other greenhouse gasses absorb infrared heat at various temperatures and pressures.


    -- When it comes to the historical record, Earthís ice ages are thought to be caused by the wobbling of the planetís orbit changing its orientation to the sun and causing more or less sunlight to hit higher latitudes, especially the polar regions. Under the right conditions as the earth warms up more CO2 is released into the atmosphere which explains, in part, why CO2 sometimes appears to lag a warming trend. The opposite happens, the planet cools, if atmospheric carbon dioxide is low enough and polar regions receive less sunlight.
    Sometimes? It pretty much always lags behind temperature in the historical records. You say there is plenty of evidence that CO2 drove temperature in the historical record. That is news to me. I would like to see more of the evidence you have.


    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    What we've seen from past global temperature reconstructions is the warming and cooling is not uniform across time and space for the planet. Sometimes Antarctica begins warming or cooling for hundreds or even a thousand years before northern latitudes do the same, and vice versa.


    --- Even if a person disagrees with all of the above, or even disagrees with the studies themselves, the fact remains there is plenty of evidence demonstrating CO2 drove the earth's temperature in the historical record.

    For example, according to the 2012 study linked below, during the last deglaciation the earth started slowing warming due orbital change but after that the vast majority of warming, something like 80-90%, occurred due to CO2 increases:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/nature10915
    That study has received a fair amount of criticism:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/04/...ence-by-proxy/
    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/04/...y/#more-60932/
    http://www.sciencebits.com/Shakun_in_Nature

  17. #1567
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan_pdx View Post
    That's a fabulous description of your posts to this thread. Maybe you should show yourselves the door so the rational members of the board can continue bitching and moaning about how climate change is fucking up our ski seasons -- oh yeah, and threatening human society globally.
    I guess the difference is that is coming from an organization that is supposed to have scientific integrity, and I'm just a jack off climate change denier sitting in mom's basement arguing with people on a ski message board.

    Either way, you haven't demonstrated any understanding of climate science, so I don't think you would be able to decipher the validity of any of the scientific discussion in this thread anyway.

  18. #1568
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongShortLong View Post
    A credible reference.

    So we agree its well studied, and the experts who study it say we have a problem and are advising society to take action.
    Seems to me its mostly the activists and politicians doing the advising.

  19. #1569
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    Wattsupwiththat is a known Koch brothers paid denier site. Good reference.

  20. #1570
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron johnson View Post
    I don't think you would be able to decipher the validity of any of the scientific discussion in this thread anyway.
    There's a big difference in dismissing an argument and making a personal attack.
    Your arguments are inconsistent, citing bogus websites, denying leveraging those websites, insulting authors and posters, making wild claims and ignoring established statistical methods.

    So I'm just not convinced.

    About the only positive thing I can think of is that theories are supposed to be somewhat indeterminate, Heisenberg, quantum theory, error analysis and all that. To that extent we should be suspicious and critical of theories and "facts". But that's a very different thing than putting the conclusion ahead of the data and insulting those who disagree.

    So, I'm out, not that it matters.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
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  21. #1571
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bromontane View Post
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    I laffed hard

    this is how I picture rj, full on delusional retart

  22. #1572
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron johnson View Post
    I guess the difference is that is coming from an organization that is supposed to have scientific integrity, and I'm just a jack off climate change denier sitting in mom's basement arguing with people on a ski message board.

    Either way, you haven't demonstrated any understanding of climate science, so I don't think you would be able to decipher the validity of any of the scientific discussion in this thread anyway.
    Um, coming from the guy that couldn't understand a sentence about confidence level, that's pretty rich.

  23. #1573
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron johnson View Post
    Sometimes? It pretty much always lags behind temperature in the historical records. You say there is plenty of evidence that CO2 drove temperature in the historical record. That is news to me. I would like to see more of the evidence you have.

    That study has received a fair amount of criticism:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/04/...ence-by-proxy/
    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/04/...y/#more-60932/
    http://www.sciencebits.com/Shakun_in_Nature
    - Before getting into the weeds, are you arguing greenhouse gases do not act to amplify warming associated with very long timescale variations in the Earth's orbital configuration?

    - Are you arguing CO2 and other greenhouse gasses in the industrial era are not driving modern warming?


    If you answer CO2 does amplify to the first question, which is the consensus opinion BTW, then CO2 both lags and leads. Because of orbital changes (the planet wobbles) either the Southern Hemisphere (or the Northern Hemisphere) slowly warms up whereas in the opposite hemisphere (which is still cold, obviously) CO2 leads the warming.

    This is not controversial.



    But, if you deny CO2 causes any warming then we are back to where we started with you (and wattsupwiththat) saying everything you and they don't agree with is a conspiracy.

    In any case, you really are having a hard time with this whole spatial-variability thing aren't you? You're not alone either, wattsupwiththat also completely misses the point of spatial-variability with their criticism too, and inadvertently reinforces the paper's findings. Although I doubt they (and you) realize it.

    You've done a lot of that too in this thread so thanks for all the help with the research.

  24. #1574
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  25. #1575
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    To those who say we can't afford to do anything about climate change, the Government Accountability Office has set the cost of the Wall Street bailout in 2008 at $16 trillion. Bernie's climate plan, the most expensive plan offered so far, costs ... wait for it ... $16 trillion.

    Seems the world didn't end when we spent that to bail out the banks. It probably won't end if we spend it to continue human life on the planet either.

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