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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by KQ View Post
    we can go back to eating what were once staples of the native American's diets - things we now call weeds and spray for such as pig weed aka Amaranthus palmeri. It grows like crazy when it gets hot and dry.
    Pretty sure pigweed is a noxious weed?? I know its a major nitrogen leach pulling up as much as it can and storing it in the plant (I think this is what makes it noxious?) It along with thistles are my number one and two enemys in the garden.

    speaking of spraying-- I read not to long ago that pigweed has numerous strains resistant to pretty much every class of herbicide. 20 some different species resistant glyphosate alone.

    Just got lost in google land looking for that resistance piece. anyhow yea it is noxious. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaranthus_palmeri

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by steepconcrete View Post
    Pretty sure pigweed is a noxious weed?? I know its a major nitrogen leach pulling up as much as it can and storing it in the plant (I think this is what makes it noxious?) It along with thistles are my number one and two enemys in the garden.

    speaking of spraying-- I read not to long ago that pigweed has numerous strains resistant to pretty much every class of herbicide. 20 some different species resistant glyphosate alone.

    Just got lost in google land looking for that resistance piece. anyhow yea it is noxious. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaranthus_palmeri
    i think the asshatery is the main thing that makes you noxious.

    can we just start banning noxious asshats yet? theyre a real problem.

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by theshredder View Post
    its not just daylight hours. its mainly angle of incidence/sun intensity. im sure im wasting my time here. consumers like you tend to believe whatever they want - whatever validates their consumption, cuz consumption is fun - taking is fun. dont think about, just consume. its fun.
    no need to be a dick. FWIW I produce much more than I consume. What do you do Mr. high and mighty? Also i follow the science in pretty much everything I do in life. if I didn't I would have gone broke a long time ago as farming/ranching is mostly science based (luck with weather helps a lot also).

    so anyhow the answer is no, it would not be a waste of time. I am constantly refining my position on any number of subjects as I learn and/or new info comes out. Id honestly love to hear it--> please explain why a much warmer AK could not support crops?

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by steepconcrete View Post
    Well it kinda seems favorable to food production as we are already seeing increased greening. 14% over 28 years. http://www.globalwarming.org/2013/10...ing-the-earth/

    Also I think growing season is basically dependent on temp and daylight hours? I know day length gets longer the closer one gets to the poles. FWIW I have seen some photos of some massive veggies in Alaska. A lot of productive land will be lost but at the same time a lot of land will become productive. Like all of siberia and northern canada and alaska.... thats a shitload of land.
    A shitload of land will be gained with bad soil. Meanwhile the midwestern United States with awesome soil may go out of production once it gets too hot for corn to pollinate itself. Not an even trade at all.

  5. #130
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    it doesnt work that way. you need to explain why "a much warmer AK could support more crops", because you brought it up.

    all i did was introduce an aspect you hadnt considered, which you promptly ignored. because youre a self serving asshat. ya youre all about the science TOO (notice the 2 o's) when it supports your consumption. but you ignore basic logic and common sense. thats what makes you an asshat.

    im done corresponding with you.

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglymoney View Post
    A shitload of land will be gained with bad soil. Meanwhile the midwestern United States with awesome soil may go out of production once it gets too hot for corn to pollinate itself. Not an even trade at all.
    Why would the midwest go out of production? Heat does not harm corn, only helps. take mexico- they get two crops a year. also what makes you think all that soil up north is bad? it was once covered in glaciers just like the plains. Is there any studies on what will actually happen aside from losing coast land?

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by theshredder View Post
    it doesnt work that way. you need to explain why "a much warmer AK could support more crops", because you brought it up.

    all i did was introduce an aspect you hadnt considered, which you promptly ignored. because youre a self serving asshat. ya youre all about the science TOO (notice the 2 o's) when it supports your consumption. but you ignore basic logic and common sense. thats what makes you an asshat.

    im done corresponding with you.
    wow thats prolly a good idea health wise. don't understand why you are attacking me. Im sorry if you don't like what I have to say but instead of attacking please respond with substance.

    anyhow IMO some crops would work because some plants cant tell the difference between 20 hours of weak light and 10 of stronger light. At least thats what I gather growing under lights. Ive never read any studies or anything... that is why I asked.

  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by steepconcrete View Post

    Just got lost in google land looking for that resistance piece. anyhow yea it is noxious. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaranthus_palmeri
    Not always noxious - it is listed as a edible with certain considerations.

    The leaves, stems and seeds of Palmer amaranth, like those of other amaranths, are edible and highly nutritious.[1][2] Palmer amaranth was once widely cultivated and eaten by Native Americans across North America, both for its abundant seeds and as a cooked or dried green vegetable.[2] Other related Amaranthus species have been grown as crops for their greens and seeds for thousands of years in Mexico, South America, the Caribbean, Africa, India, and China.

    The plant can be toxic to livestock animals due to the presence of nitrates in the leaves.[3] Palmer amaranth has a tendency to absorb excess soil nitrogen, and if grown in overly fertilized soils, it can contain excessive levels of nitrates, even for humans. Like spinach and many other leafy greens, amaranth leaves also contain oxalic acid, which can be harmful to individuals with kidney problems if consumed in excess,.[4]

    Because of its toxicity to livestock,[3] and scarce familiarity in the United States with the uses of amaranths as food, Palmer amaranth is rarely consumed nowadays, despite its ubiquity and resistance to drought. Unlike the grain and leaf amaranths of other regions, it has not been cultivated or further improved by recent agricultural breeding.[5] As a result, the primary economic importance of Palmer amaranth to American farmers has been as a noxious weed and a competitor to more marketable crops, rather than as a crop in its own right.[1]
    I try to mow as much as possible but I live in a part of the valley that is very, very weedy so I do have to spray about every other year. So far the pig weed here is responding (dying) to a mixture of 2,4-d, Milestone and Dicamba.

  9. #134
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    "...what will actually happen aside from losing coast land?"

    Don't forget melting glaciers also mean less fresh meltwater in the summer; this could impact far more folks than coastal land loss.

  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyoverland Captive View Post
    "...what will actually happen aside from losing coast land?"

    Don't forget melting glaciers also mean less fresh meltwater in the summer; this could impact far more folks than coastal land loss.
    yup and lower snow packs harm one of our greatest renewable resources (hydro)

  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by steepconcrete View Post
    Why would the midwest go out of production? Heat does not harm corn, only helps. take mexico- they get two crops a year. also what makes you think all that soil up north is bad? it was once covered in glaciers just like the plains. Is there any studies on what will actually happen aside from losing coast land?
    Serious? Mt. Everest is covered in glaciers as well. I didn't know they were the source of the amazing topsoil we have here in Iowa. In fact the driftless region of Iowa has some of the richest soils around...I know because our family owns a couple acreages in the driftless region of Iowa which were missed by the glaciers because they are a bit higher than surrounding land. If you think we can just move the corn belt north to the thin soil in the Canadian shield you are delusional. Hybrid corn here survived the hottest Iowa summer in history by sending roots several feet into the rich soil. That can't happen if you don't have several feet of soil. Also temps above 95 degrees are lethal to corn pollination. That is a fact. So when you mess with, shorten, or otherwise impact the pollination period for corn you are going to effect yields downward.

  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by KQ View Post
    Not always noxious - it is listed as a edible with certain considerations.

    I try to mow as much as possible but I live in a part of the valley that is very, very weedy so I do have to spray about every other year. So far the pig weed here is responding (dying) to a mixture of 2,4-d, Milestone and Dicamba.
    holy sweet jesus Id hope that would kill it!!

    no herbicides on our organic land. We rely on tillage then hand weeding. to be honest im getting jaded with some aspects of organics. its super labor intensive, the extra fuel burnt to control these weeds is prolly more harmful than most herbicides. but yet its where the demand is. also the excess tillage is not good for the soil I know that for sure. We heavy cover crop but still Im sure I loose more nutrients thru winter because of the extra fall tillage (water just runs thru the tilled dirt carrying nutrients with it) than I would spraying then no-till sewing the cover. [end rant]

  13. #138
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    ya i guess it would depend on the crop.. sorry. fuck physics.

    ill try and find that paper came up on fb... they calculated the change in number of growing season days and factored in sunlight intensity, it was something along the lines of net loss world wide mostly from the tropics and subtropics, gains coming from midlatitude/ploar but not much at high latitudes limited by lack of sun among other things.

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by steepconcrete View Post
    holy sweet jesus Id hope that would kill it!!

    no herbicides on our organic land. We rely on tillage then hand weeding. to be honest im getting jaded with some aspects of organics. its super labor intensive, the extra fuel burnt to control these weeds is prolly more harmful than most herbicides. but yet its where the demand is. also the excess tillage is not good for the soil I know that for sure. We heavy cover crop but still Im sure I loose more nutrients thru winter because of the extra fall tillage (water just runs thru the tilled dirt carrying nutrients with it) than I would spraying then no-till sewing the cover. [end rant]
    Well I'm not just killing that and it's pasture land so I can't till. You seriously would not believe the weeds I have to contend with and I tolerate weeds growing a lot more than most of my neighbors. I do hand pull as much as I can and try to create competition by irrigating but sometimes I need to set it back with chemicals.

    I have one pasture that was overtaken by clover and one of my horses foundered. I have the ability to rotate off of it but eventually I need to use it. I can't just throw that parcel away and say "oh well". It's a dilemma for sure. I don't like spraying and prior to moving here would be horrified by the idea but as I said the amount and variety of weeds is overwhelming. It is particularly frustrating to know that many of the noxious weeds I have to deal with were brought here by transplants who had them as ornamentals where they moved from (Kochia I'm looking at you)

  15. #140
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    things change. I believe that sooner or later we will increase particulate matter in the upper atmosphere to block sun light. if not there is going to be serious climate change in the tropics that will effect food production

  16. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by KQ View Post
    Well I'm not just killing that and it's pasture land so I can't till. You seriously would not believe the weeds I have to contend with and I tolerate weeds growing a lot more than most of my neighbors. I do hand pull as much as I can and try to create competition by irrigating but sometimes I need to set it back with chemicals.

    I have one pasture that was overtaken by clover and one of my horses foundered. I have the ability to rotate off of it but eventually I need to use it. I can't just throw that parcel away and say "oh well". It's a dilemma for sure. I don't like spraying and prior to moving here would be horrified by the idea but as I said the amount and variety of weeds is overwhelming. It is particularly frustrating to know that many of the noxious weeds I have to deal with were brought here by transplants who had them as ornamentals where they moved from (Kochia I'm looking at you)
    I'm not here to interrupt a conversation between a couple producers but climate change is having a positive impact on poison ivy among other weeds. Maybe we just switch our diets to weeds.

    http://www.post-gazette.com/news/hea...s/201307220149

    Poison Ivy Pie anyone?

  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglymoney View Post
    Serious? Mt. Everest is covered in glaciers as well. I didn't know they were the source of the amazing topsoil we have here in Iowa. In fact the driftless region of Iowa has some of the richest soils around...I know because our family owns a couple acreages in the driftless region of Iowa which were missed by the glaciers because they are a bit higher than surrounding land. If you think we can just move the corn belt north to the thin soil in the Canadian shield you are delusional. Hybrid corn here survived the hottest Iowa summer in history by sending roots several feet into the rich soil. That can't happen if you don't have several feet of soil. Also temps above 95 degrees are lethal to corn pollination. That is a fact. So when you mess with, shorten, or otherwise impact the pollination period for corn you are going to effect yields downward.
    pretty sure farmers will adapt and not have the corn tasseling in the heat of summer. methinks it would end up being more like mexicos spring and fall harvest. keep in mind mexico also produces a shit load of wheat. you know what else also does really good in heat? soy. Just look at the amount Brazil produces. also FWIW the water vapor is only supposed to rise so widespread rainfall issues i assume would be less likely.

    My family also grows corn. SD and ND. brings up a point--> 20 years ago in ND there was no corn. now they are getting 120 bu acre on land that 20 years back was in CRP because it was too shitty to farm. thanks to technology.

  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglymoney View Post
    I'm not here to interrupt a conversation between a couple producers but climate change is having a positive impact on poison ivy among other weeds. Maybe we just switch our diets to weeds.

    http://www.post-gazette.com/news/hea...s/201307220149

    whats that stuff taking over the south thats also edible? kudzu?

    Poison Ivy Pie anyone?
    whats that stuff taking over the south thats also edible? kudzu?

  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by steepconcrete View Post
    My family also grows corn. SD and ND. brings up a point--> 20 years ago in ND there was no corn. now they are getting 120 bu acre on land that 20 years back was in CRP because it was too shitty to farm. thanks to technology.
    Yeah for now yields continue to go up even with all the crazy weather. And the strains of corn we are using now are incredibly tough. The corn that survived and produced here in 2012 blew my mind. Really this has been one big area of success for us as we deal with climate change. Our ability to develop resistant crops is mind boggling and of course another area of controversy. I'd rather eat a gmo plant than starve I will tell you that.

  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by KQ View Post
    Well I'm not just killing that and it's pasture land so I can't till. You seriously would not believe the weeds I have to contend with and I tolerate weeds growing a lot more than most of my neighbors. I do hand pull as much as I can and try to create competition by irrigating but sometimes I need to set it back with chemicals.

    I have one pasture that was overtaken by clover and one of my horses foundered. I have the ability to rotate off of it but eventually I need to use it. I can't just throw that parcel away and say "oh well". It's a dilemma for sure. I don't like spraying and prior to moving here would be horrified by the idea but as I said the amount and variety of weeds is overwhelming. It is particularly frustrating to know that many of the noxious weeds I have to deal with were brought here by transplants who had them as ornamentals where they moved from (Kochia I'm looking at you)
    do you feed screenings? we got a huge amount of clover after feeding screening one winter. not a bad thing with cattle and sheep but it was interesting none the less.

    oh and I cant tell you the number of hours I spent in a tractor mowing Kochia in ND. summers of my childhood. lucky there is not any on the place here.

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    here it is, more facts that conflict with steepconcretes world view. i expect no response.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1002167

  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by theshredder View Post
    here it is, more facts that conflict with steepconcretes world view. i expect no response.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1002167
    uhh dude WTF are you talking about. also you should stop assuming things about my world view, consumption habits...

    Quote Originally Posted by steepconcrete View Post
    A lot of productive land will be lost but at the same time a lot of land will become productive. Like all of siberia and northern canada and alaska.... thats a shitload of land.
    Quote Originally Posted by theshredder's proof
    Areas in Russia, China, and Canada are projected to gain suitable plant growing days, but the rest of the world will experience losses.
    this is also a weird quote from the paper--> "Changes in suitable plant growing days will be less severe under strong and moderate mitigation scenarios" WTF does that mean? the worse it is the better off we are?

  23. #148
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    you conveniently left out the key part where more land becomes less preductive than becomes more productive.

    quit playing games.

  24. #149
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    well that 11% decrease in your paper is a nice hypothesis. meanwhile this is what has actually been happening during the warming so far.

    "Using gas exchange theory, we predict that the 14% increase in atmospheric CO2 (1982–2010) led to a 5 to 10% increase in green foliage cover in warm, arid environments. Satellite observations, analysed to remove the effect of variations in rainfall, show that cover across these environments has increased by 11%."

    http://russgeorge.net/2013/05/31/ano...f-land-plants/

  25. #150
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    "....analysed to remove the effect of variations in rainfall..."

    arent you guys always attacking the use of filters like this?

    deriving trends and extrapolating using data thats been filtered like that is kinda questionable, especially considering how much precipitation has and will continue to be affected by climate change

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