Fake Service Dogs......

[Bobby Stainless]

No, if you bought a midget and forced him to work.

Making healthy baked treats?

[mtngirl79]

As far as privacy, there are two solutions. One is to forgo privacy in service of the greater good--getting rid of fake service dogs. The better solution is a universally recognized insignia the dog can wear--the same way people have handicapped placards. That way anyone seeing the dog would know it's legit without having to know what the disability is or ask any questions. There would still be fakes, like there are with handicapped placards, but a hefty fine would dissuade most.

As to who certifies--if we can figure out how to regulate Ultimate Frisbee I'm sure we can figure out how to certify service dogs. As far as paying for it--Leader Dogs is entirely funded by donations. Seems like similar organizations for other training would be able to sustain themselves, although govt grants would seem to be preferable. Then it's just a question of compiling a list--at the state level or the federal level--of recognized trainers and issuing the insignia. That should be govt funded. Maybe we could get by with one less fighter jet--that should cover it for the next 1000 years or so.

As far as picking up stuff for a wheelchair bound person, sure it's easy to train the dog to do it. What's hard is to train the dog how to work in public without getting distracted, barking, biting when frightened, etc. That takes months and is beyond the ability of most amateur dog owners.

It's already a felony to impersonate a disabled person.

I don't disagree that it's possible, but the ADA is really strong and their rationale is that any certification program is an added barrier for people that do little else but struggle through barriers

[ThreeRidges]

Of late, I’ve done more air travel than usual, and I would say without hesitation that 90-95% of the dogs were fake or credentialed by Internet emotional support animals. And about half were not well trained


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[summit]

It's already a felony to impersonate a disabled person.

WRONG
But it is against Federal law for businesses to put even basic effort into figuring out if someone is an impersonator.

I don't disagree that it's possible, but the ADA is really strong and their rationale is that any certification program is an added barrier for people that do little else but struggle through barriers

With federal funding the barriers are negated.
Without a validation process, the disabled will face growing derision and scrutiny as everyone assumes they are another faker gaming the system.

[old goat]

It's already a felony to impersonate a disabled person.

I don't disagree that it's possible, but the ADA is really strong and their rationale is that any certification program is an added barrier for people that do little else but struggle through barriers

the fake is not the person, it's the fake service animal--an animal wearing the insignia it didn't earn.
Obtaining certification shouldn't be a burden on the disabled person. It would be a burden on the organization training and providing the dogs to become a recognized provider of certified dogs. If a state wished to pass a certification law existing, widely recognized organizations could be included in the law, so again minimal burden. A new organization wishing to provide certified dogs would have to jump through some hoops. The certified organization would in turn certify each dog that successfully completes training and is provided to a disabled person. The certification and insignia would be provided to the disabled person when they get the dog. No burden there.

[mtngirl79]

Except that the waiting list for service dogs from reputable placed are huge.

And they cost like 20k. The cost of the certification program that the breeders/trainers/suppliers would havebto support would just get passed on to the disabled person.

Then, there are the "self trained" dogs and there are some training programs where the owner trains but a "professional" assists.

If you are talking about seeing eye dogs the amount of training is huge and requires professionals... but a pick shit up off the floor dog? Its Not that hard to teach a retriever to behave in public and retrieve shit.

Then there are the seizure smelling dogs... people claim their little yapper knows it's coming and alerts them... how do you certify that?

And just about anyone who has ever been really close to a dog knows that when the owner is upset the dog knows and tries to make it better. So some disabled vet has a dog that leans on its owner and licks his hand and snaps him out of a ptsd episode? Certify that.

Then, on top of all of this how does someone really know the credentials are legit.

How often is anyone more than annoyed by a probably fake service dog? And any misbehaving dogs can be asked to leave regardless of service dog status. They cannot make unwanted contact with people, poop, pee, bark, whine, growl, jump...

[Kinnikinnick]

How often is anyone more than annoyed by a probably fake service dog? And any misbehaving dogs can be asked to leave regardless of service dog status. They cannot make unwanted contact with people, poop, pee, bark, whine, growl, jump...

Oh yeah, so on an airplane at 30k’ they do what?


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[old goat]

Except that the waiting list for service dogs from reputable placed are huge.

And they cost like 20k. The cost of the certification program that the breeders/trainers/suppliers would havebto support would just get passed on to the disabled person.

Then, there are the "self trained" dogs and there are some training programs where the owner trains but a "professional" assists.

If you are talking about seeing eye dogs the amount of training is huge and requires professionals... but a pick shit up off the floor dog? Its Not that hard to teach a retriever to behave in public and retrieve shit.

Then there are the seizure smelling dogs... people claim their little yapper knows it's coming and alerts them... how do you certify that?

And just about anyone who has ever been really close to a dog knows that when the owner is upset the dog knows and tries to make it better. So some disabled vet has a dog that leans on its owner and licks his hand and snaps him out of a ptsd episode? Certify that.

Then, on top of all of this how does someone really know the credentials are legit.

How often is anyone more than annoyed by a probably fake service dog? And any misbehaving dogs can be asked to leave regardless of service dog status. They cannot make unwanted contact with people, poop, pee, bark, whine, growl, jump...

The waiting list for legitimate service dogs is huge because it does take a lot of time and expertise to train them. As I said before--the hard part is not teaching a dog how to pick something up. It's teaching them to how to behave in public in places where dogs are not ordinarily appropriate. How to ignore other people and focus entirely on the owner, ignore barking dogs, sit quietly when not engaged in a task etc. The same applies to PTSD dogs, seizure sensing dogs, etc.

People who train their own dogs can use a certified professional trainer and have a certified dog.
People who wish to use service dogs should have a diagnosed physical or mental problem, like people who get handicap placards.
Yes, a professionally trained dog is expensive, like motorized wheelchairs, ramps, caretakers, and other equipment and services that disabled people require, and should be covered by Medicare and Medicaid for those who cannot afford them. Getting adequate funding is a different topic; maybe the billionaires getting a big windfall from the tax cut bill will donate a little more to service dog organizations.
As far as getting misbehaving dogs to leave, airplanes aside, how is that supposed to work. Someone's dog jumps up on me in a store--do I tell them to leave? You think they will? I try to get a store owner or manager to throw them out? You think that's going to happen?
You are justifiably sympathetic to the needs of disabled people; fake service dogs, as they continue to proliferate, will make things harder for disabled people with legit dogs in the long run.

[mtngirl79]

The waiting list for legitimate service dogs is huge because it does take a lot of time and expertise to train them. As I said before--the hard part is not teaching a dog how to pick something up. It's teaching them to how to behave in public in places where dogs are not ordinarily appropriate. How to ignore other people and focus entirely on the owner, ignore barking dogs, sit quietly when not engaged in a task etc. The same applies to PTSD dogs, seizure sensing dogs, etc.

People who train their own dogs can use a certified professional trainer and have a certified dog.
People who wish to use service dogs should have a diagnosed physical or mental problem, like people who get handicap placards.
Yes, a professionally trained dog is expensive, like motorized wheelchairs, ramps, caretakers, and other equipment and services that disabled people require, and should be covered by Medicare and Medicaid for those who cannot afford them. Getting adequate funding is a different topic; maybe the billionaires getting a big windfall from the tax cut bill will donate a little more to service dog organizations.
As far as getting misbehaving dogs to leave, airplanes aside, how is that supposed to work. Someone's dog jumps up on me in a store--do I tell them to leave? You think they will? I try to get a store owner or manager to throw them out? You think that's going to happen?
You are justifiably sympathetic to the needs of disabled people; fake service dogs, as they continue to proliferate, will make things harder for disabled people with legit dogs in the long run.

You didn't answer my question. You just talked about how people with money can get service dogs.

How may times / how often have you been more than just annoyed with a service dog you thought was a fake.

More than annoyed means actual damages.

[::: :::]

When I rode our light rail here, I witnessed it 2 or 3 times a month

[Kinnikinnick]

You didn't answer my question. You just talked about how people with money can get service dogs.

How may times / how often have you been more than just annoyed with a service dog you thought was a fake.

More than annoyed means actual damages.

I have to be attacked by a fake service dog before I’m allowed an opinion on requiring rules on their proper training and documentation?

How about this person? https://www.google.com/amp/abcnews.g...%3fid=47869231

So in essence you advocate that no rules whatsoever should apply and anyone should be able to bring their dog or other pet anywhere as long as they make some vague claim that they have some therapeutic affect for them?


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[mtngirl79]

Annoyed or caused actual damage?

I drive the bus and see multiple service dogs and probable fakes every single day.

I have never seen anything more than annoyance from them. Most of the time they don't do anything to bother other people but pull on the leash and do things service dogs don't do.

We had one bite someone once in the three years I have been here but it didn't break the skin.

Are you saying you were annoyed 2 or 3 times a month? Do you think it's better to protect you from annoyance, or protect disabled people from not being allowed their service dog and or harassment by people who think they are the judge and jury of service dogs?

[summit]

I wish they left mtngrl banned... she is going to argue idiotic positions because it gets her the unending attention she craves.

[::: :::]

Are you saying you were annoyed 2 or 3 times a month? Do you think it's better to protect you from annoyance, or protect disabled people from not being allowed their service dog and or harassment by people who think they are the judge and jury of service dogs?

I’m not here to debate you
You asked if we had been victim to or witnessed something of significance. I said 2-3x times a month.
Asked & answered

[mtngirl79]

I have to be attacked by a fake service dog before I’m allowed an opinion on requiring rules on their proper training and documentation?

How about this person? https://www.google.com/amp/abcnews.g...%3fid=47869231

So in essence you advocate that no rules whatsoever should apply and anyone should be able to bring their dog or other pet anywhere as long as they make some vague claim that they have some therapeutic affect for them?


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So how much does the hazard that emotional support create compare to other hazards in our lives?

[mtngirl79]

I wish they left mtngrl banned... she is going to argue idiotic positions because it gets her the unending attention she craves.

The amercan way! Ban everyone different!

[Bobby Stainless]

How often is anyone more than annoyed by a probably fake service dog?

I own apartments that have hard wood floors.

And yes the whine, pee, poop, bark, etc. And no, you can't make them leave for those things.

Only thing is proof of aggressive behavior. Not just an aggressive breed.

[KQ]

How may times / how often have you been more than just annoyed with a service dog you thought was a fake.

More than annoyed means actual damages.

I was lunged at and nipped by a "service dog" in a book store. It was laying on the floor in front of a book shelf. I was reaching for a book in the shelf above and next to it. The dog was a large GSD. That's a scary dog to have lunge at you and I LOVE GSDs, my family raised them as show dogs.

Annoyed or caused actual damage?

I drive the bus and see multiple service dogs and probable fakes every single day.

I have never seen anything more than annoyance from them. Most of the time they don't do anything to bother other people but pull on the leash and do things service dogs don't do.

We had one bite someone once in the three years I have been here but it didn't break the skin.

Are you saying you were annoyed 2 or 3 times a month? Do you think it's better to protect you from annoyance, or protect disabled people from not being allowed their service dog and or harassment by people who think they are the judge and jury of service dogs?

The purpose of the ADA is to give people with disabilities equal access/rights, to put them on the same footing as everyone else. It is not meant to take rights away from others i.e. the right to be in public and be unmolested or threatened. No animal should be taken into public places by any person that is annoying/threatening/making people uncomfortable IMO.

[summit]

The amercan way! Ban everyone different!

Nah just pathological disruptive attention seeking types

[SB]

I want a service honey badger.

[Kinnikinnick]

So how much does the hazard that emotional support create compare to other hazards in our lives?

Bullshit.

The problem is that people at present get to make up themselves whether there is some real value in “emotional support” or even a real medical need and there is zero real regulation requiring training to make the situation safe or minimizing impact to others. The reality is that a goodly portion of dog owners are shitty at training/disciplining/controlling their dogs. Happens to me all the time that some fuckwits dog interferes with my free movement or outright attacks me.

Just because you like dogs ( and I do in general) doesn’t mean you want others dogs jumping on you, getting in front of you while walking/running/biking, or worse of all biting or aggressing. And without formal, documented training that’s what you’ll get. Just because they are cute or make you feel better doesn’t mean their owners should get to impose upon everyone else or inconvenience or endanger.


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[KQ]

Bullshit.

The problem is that people at present get to make up themselves whether there is some real value in “emotional support” or even a real medical need and there is zero real regulation requiring training to make the situation safe or minimizing impact to others. The reality is that a goodly portion of dog owners are shitty at training/disciplining/controlling their dogs. Happens to me all the time that some fuckwits dog interferes with my free movement or outright attacks me.

Just because you like dogs ( and I do in general) doesn’t mean you want others dogs jumping on you, getting in front of you while walking/running/biking, or worse of all biting or aggressing. And without formal, documented training that’s what you’ll get. Just because they are cute or make you feel better doesn’t mean their owners should get to impose upon everyone else or inconvenience or endanger.


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'xactly.

Same as anything else. For example: person's love of cigarette smoking does not mean they get to smoke at the table next to you while you dine.

[KQ]

plus the casinos are so much healthier

Well now you're talking domestic dependent nations with their own rules. Indian tribes and their governments are excluded from the ADA.

[mtngirl79]

I was lunged at and nipped by a "service dog" in a book store. It was laying on the floor in front of a book shelf. I was reaching for a book in the shelf above and next to it. The dog was a large GSD. That's a scary dog to have lunge at you and I LOVE GSDs, my family raised them as show dogs.





The purpose of the ADA is to give people with disabilities equal access/rights, to put them on the same footing as everyone else. It is not meant to take rights away from others i.e. the right to be in public and be unmolested or threatened. No animal should be taken into public places by any person that is annoying/threatening/making people uncomfortable IMO.

The ADA does not allow bad behavior in dogs.

What it comes down to is is the risk of annoyance, fear, allergy, injury, etc to the general public worth the risk of harassment and exclusion that disabled people may suffer with "stricter laws" and "certification"? And how effective would it be?

The enforcement falls on the business owners or management. Most feel it's best to all them unless they misbehave.

Honestly, since I look at this issue every day, all day I don't see much of a problem beyond annoyance.

Middle-class or above white skiers are annoyed versus disabled people having access and not being harassed.

Occasional accidents and incidents happen everywhere.

Middle class skiers will be fine.

[reckless toboggan]

'xactly.

Same as anything else. For example: person's love of cigarette smoking does not mean they get to smoke at the table next to you while you dine.

That's it!

In addition to my service/comfort cassowary,...

I demand service/comfort cigarettes, and a service/comfort bazooka!

I can't wait to take them on a bus or a plane without any documentation or proper training encumbrances, and the safety turned off.

Fuck everyone else! They make me comfortable!

I suddenly see mtngirl79's point!

FREEEDUM!