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  1. #51
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    Is anybody here an AMGA ski guide.....

    I guess that is the key here, it is a Ski Mountaineer guiding qualification. Not "just" a Ski Guide qualification. Excellent and near perfect ski guiding on non-technical and simple technical terrain is not so easy to execute, yet it is a service that many people want to pay for, and benefit from when delivered flawlessly. Personally, I think the AMGA should focus on that as Ski Guide qual, and leave the technical terrain ski mountaineering to the UIAGM Mountain Guides that they certify.
    Last edited by neck beard; 04-16-2015 at 09:19 PM.
    Life is not lift served.

  2. #52
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    I think it comes down to what model the US guiding systems adopt. The current, disorganized system with multiple certs. for a variety of activities, or the euro model where a guide does it all, or is at least trained to do it all, even if they just guide tourists on low angle tree runs. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

    I agree it is a constitutional right for Americans to be assholes...its just too bad that so many take the opportunity...
    iscariot

  3. #53
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    When the range of services varies from side country tours and cat skiing in "minor" mountains through to Alaskan expeditions, a one size fits all certification system only makes sense for the established players looking to monopolize the market.

  4. #54
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    Many of the criticisms in this thread seem to stem from the AMGA's current lack of a non-IFMGA ski track.

    By contrast, the AMGA's non-IFMGA rock track of Climbing Instructor Program:
    https://amga.com/climbing-instructor-program/
    ... includes three certification streams: Rock Instructor, Climbing Wall Instructor, and Single Pitch Instructor.

    AMGA previously experimented with the ski equivalent:
    http://alpineskills.com/equipment/AMGA_OBSI_outline.pdf
    ... yet quickly dropped it.
    (Anyone here know why?)

    And with the prereq's for the Alpine Skills Course :
    https://amga.com/alpine-guide/ [scroll down to the first of the five expanded course descriptions]
    ... which will now be a prereq for the SGC, the AMGA has effectively cut itself off from instructing many non-climber avy instructors and other kinds of backcountry skiing guides who are operating in entirely on-snow terrain (and in conditions w/o any sharps either):

    Quote Originally Posted by AMGA ASC
    • Two years personal climbing experience on a variety of terrain that includes snow, rock and alpine
    • Confidence leading 5.6 in rock shoes, at the time of the course
    • Confidence on 3rd and 4th class terrain, in mountain boots, at the time of the course
    • Confidence placing traditional rock protection
    • Documentation of lead or shared lead on 5 rock climbs rated 5.6 or harder
    Last edited by Jonathan S.; 04-23-2015 at 02:57 PM.
    Mo' skimo here: NE Rando Race Series

  5. #55
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    Clearly AMGA guide qualification isn't aimed at middle aged desk jockey avalanche instructors.

    Or even heli/cat/"backcountry" tour guides. They probably should introduce some kind of AMGA boy scout merit badge system for those roles.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  6. #56
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    From my perspective as a potential client, a guide who can't expertly navigate brief sections of moderate rock and ice (and teach me the skills to do so) is worthless, as this is the exact area in which I'm less skilled/want to learn and challenge myself. While much of a ski guide's work may be making avy related decisions, breaking trail and teaching kick turns to first timers, I can't imagine thinking of myself as a "guide" without a well rounded set of mountain travel skills.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds! View Post
    From my perspective as a potential client, a guide who can't expertly navigate brief sections of moderate rock and ice (and teach me the skills to do so) is worthless, as this is the exact area in which I'm less skilled/want to learn and challenge myself. While much of a ski guide's work may be making avy related decisions, breaking trail and teaching kick turns to first timers, I can't imagine thinking of myself as a "guide" without a well rounded set of mountain travel skills.
    Yes, of course, if that's what you want, then you need an AMGA Ski Mountaineering Guide (or someone advancing along that track or a strong skier already along another IFMGA feeder track).
    But many backcountry skiing clients and avy students don't want to climb any ice or rock in their ski boots.
    The analogy is very close to how many climbing clients don't want to work on the terrain and/or skills that requiring an AMGA Rock Guide, so AMGA has non-IFMGA track courses for Climbing Wall Instructor, Single Pitch Instructor, and Rock Instructor.
    (And AMGA's neglect of this market segment sure seems to be the opposite of all this conspiracy theory mongering about wanting to dominate the guiding industry, etc.)
    Mo' skimo here: NE Rando Race Series

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan S. View Post
    But many backcountry skiing clients and avy students
    Are the AMGA removing some qualification you previously had with them?

    Were you actually going to obtain some AMGA qualification that now isn't available.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWbrit View Post
    Are the AMGA removing some qualification you previously had with them?

    Were you actually going to obtain some AMGA qualification that now isn't available.
    No & Yes, respectively.
    In more detail:

    1. AMGA awhile ago removed a lower level of skiing-related guide certification. Completion of the IMFGA-track SGC, ASGC/AE, and SGE (or whatever the equivalents were termed back then) led to certified Ski Mountaineering Guide. (Not-so-random example here of how that designation was previously spelled out.) Alternatively, completing the SGC and some lesser (yet separate) examination (which could be skipped by guides intent on pursuing the full IFMGA ski track) led to certified Ski Guide. The latter was eliminated, and the former dropped its middle qualifier word. Until somewhat recently, when the AMGA website maintained separate pages for separate certifications, about half a dozen were listed with the discontinued Ski Guide certification. (Scroll down about halfway here for more details.)

    2. I had been planning to take the AMGA Out-of-Bounds Ski Instructor Course, which was taught in 2009 (for the first time?), and scheduled to be taught in 2010. But after that it was dropped (email excerpt from one of its instructors): "It has been decided that Out of Bounds Ski Guiding should follow the same standard as all forms of Ski Guiding as the severity and consequences are the same."

    3. Alternatively, I had been planning to take the SGC. Back in summer 2008 when I submitted an abbreviated/informal application, I was told by the Program Director: "Other than possibly the technical rope skills part you definitely seem to have more than enough experience for the SGC. It would perhaps be helpful if you were able to find someone to review and practice some rope skills with, but I don't think it is absolutely necessary given some of the glacier travel training you have." I proceeded to seek out additional formal training and practice with my rope skills (partly for the SGC, and also for a Rainier summit ski). But since then work and [a growing] family got in the way. Looking ahead, the SGC course had still been a goal for me, but with the new rock climbing prerequisites, the only possibility for me to improve my skills from AMGA training would be through the creation of a non-IFMGA track ski course analogous to the AMGA Climbing Instructor Program.

    I suspect that many other avy instructors and backcountry skiing guides operating in entirely non-technical terrain might also be interested in such non-IFMGA track ski-related training from the AMGA.

    Note that within the Climbing Instructor Program, Rock Instructor is the equivalent of what I described in #1 above, i.e., start off with the IMGA track, yet then branch off into a separate non-IFMGA certification. And at the other extreme, CWI's skiing equivalent is covered by PSIA and USSA. But the SPI doesn't seem to have any skiing equivalent.
    Mo' skimo here: NE Rando Race Series

  10. #60
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    It's all so confusing...I think I'll just take up knitting.

    I agree it is a constitutional right for Americans to be assholes...its just too bad that so many take the opportunity...
    iscariot

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by hutash View Post
    It's all so confusing...I think I'll just take up knitting.
    That looks even more confusing:
    http://www.tkga.com/?page=HandKnittingProgram
    Mo' skimo here: NE Rando Race Series

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowing alpy View Post
    Just ski and climb safely like you have for years...
    Unless you're the Rog and just surf the avy to the bottom


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    Quando paramucho mi amore de felice carathon.
    Mundo paparazzi mi amore cicce verdi parasol.
    Questo abrigado tantamucho que canite carousel.


  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds! View Post
    From my perspective as a potential client, a guide who can't expertly navigate brief sections of moderate rock and ice (and teach me the skills to do so) is worthless... as this is the exact area in which I'm less skilled/want to learn and challenge myself
    A worthy challenge. I recommend that you hire a mountain guide, not a ski guide. FYI, the vast majority of guided ski terrain doesn't have technical sections of rock or ice. And the vast majority of potential clients don't want to go anywhere near it either, they just want to ski long runs of good snow whilst being served with safe, comfortable and fluid ski guiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds! View Post
    While much of a ski guide's work may be ... teaching kick turns to first timers
    Actually, he/she would be setting a trail that avoided kickturns, or would be digging out the corners so that they are not necessary for first timers.

    "IFMGA Ski Guide" keeps getting inferred in this thread. As far as I know, there is no such thing. In the AMGA, NZMGA and ACMG you can become an IFMGA Mountain Guide. One of the courses in that Mountain Guide qualification is the Ski Guiding module, but the SG qualification alone is not an IFMGA certification.
    Life is not lift served.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan S. View Post
    Yes, of course, if that's what you want, then you need an AMGA Ski Mountaineering Guide (or someone advancing along that track or a strong skier already along another IFMGA feeder track).
    But many backcountry skiing clients and avy students don't want to climb any ice or rock in their ski boots.
    The analogy is very close to how many climbing clients don't want to work on the terrain and/or skills that requiring an AMGA Rock Guide, so AMGA has non-IFMGA track courses for Climbing Wall Instructor, Single Pitch Instructor, and Rock Instructor.
    (And AMGA's neglect of this market segment sure seems to be the opposite of all this conspiracy theory mongering about wanting to dominate the guiding industry, etc.)
    You're missing something here. First, CWI really doesn't enter into anything here, it's about indoor climbing instruction. The "conspiracy theory" is based on the following:

    • In 2017 their accreditation program will require that SPI guides to operate under the supervision of a Rock Instructor, even in single pitch terrain. This has the effect of raising the bar on the qualifications for guiding operations in the least demanding terrain they operate in.
    • The AMGA is actively promoting to land managers the requirement that guiding operations be AMGA accredited.


    This isn't conjecture, it's what they're actually doing right now.

    Moreover, a few years ago the AMGA actively sought to expand their accreditation program for gyms doing outside trips. The rationale was because it ensures that operational and risk management follow best practices. This benefits the gym and its customers, all good. Their new standards virtually ensure that no gym would ever go to the trouble or expense of seeking AMGA accreditation. So, if an accredited gym was previously operating in an area requiring AMGA accred., they'd no longer be able to do so. The gym would have to either quit such trips or engage an AMGA accredited guide company. This isn't conjecture either, it's fact. And the AMGA knows that this will happen (this too is a fact, but this isn't the place to get into that).

    So, at the end of the day, it's not a conspiracy at all. It's a very explicit and public strategy.

  15. #65
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    If you want more people to pay tons of money for a certification that covers stuff that they don't need to know in order to do what they already do, then you need to find a way to force them to pay for it... thus the lobbying of land managers.
    Last edited by Summit; 04-25-2015 at 08:20 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    If you want more people to pay tons of money for a certification that covers stuff that they don't need know in order to do what they already do, then you need to find a way to force them to get pay for it... thus the lobbying of land managers.
    Amen.

  17. #67
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    Not sure whats going on in this thread. Are people bitching because they wanted to be a ski guide but now they don't qualify? Or That AMGA is gonna get more money out of them?

    Most guides aren't AMGA certified or even AMGA trained. You can get a "guiding" job with a WFR and an avy 2 pretty easily.

    I've spent significant time in U.S. places where guiding is a prominent business (rainier, denali environs) and I think the more qualifications the better. It's a real shitshow out there folks, especially at popular rock climbing crags and close-in backcountry ski spots. I don't believe they are lobbying land managers to get more money for their organization, I think they are doing it to have some sort of consistency within a largely non-regulated industry.

    And climbing 5.6...that's beginner climbing. Anyone can do that. I think the real thing is you learn is the climbing world and all the ethics that go behind it, which I think is a prerequisite for anyone who wants to be a professional guide in the mountains.

  18. #68
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    This guy took the exam in Chamonix the OP mentions, he feels it was worthwhile.
    The trumpet scatters its awful sound Over the graves of all lands Summoning all before the throne

    Death and mankind shall be stunned When Nature arises To give account before the Judge

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by donaldduck View Post
    If you're not a Bergführer then you ain't shit.- says Europe
    This.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greydon Clark View Post
    This guy took the exam in Chamonix the OP mentions, he feels it was worthwhile.
    Nice to see that guy mentioned and posted a photo of Kris getting his full cert in Cham. Kris magged up and came on the forum here (or on powmag) to talk about his descent of Cho Oyu and ended up talking to a guy who helped him out the day Hans Saari fell to his death on the Gervasutti. Kris has an unbelievable amount of street cred but ultimately needed to get the cred on paper.

    Why is there little or no mention of ENSA in this thread?

  21. #71
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    I am considering going trough the amga ski guide course. I am French and live in Norway but I don't want to commit to a full ifmga mountain guide course like the French one (I am only interested in ski guiding). Do amga ski guides or aspirants have advices or recommendations concerning the courses? I am skiing a lot (mainly touring) since 2009 but I don't figure out what are the skiing ability levels required for the course (I don't know what means black diamond terrains, but I have skied 40-50 degrees descents).

  22. #72
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    Can you make skiing 50deg terrain look good in all conditions? For example, linked consistent shaped turns, shoulders in the fall line etc?

    I think there is some videos on the AMGA website as well.
    "The idea wasnt for me, that I would be the only one that would ever do this. My idea was that everybody should be doing this. At the time nobody was, but this was something thats too much fun to pass up." -Briggs
    Quote Originally Posted by LeeLau View Post
    Wear your climbing harness. Attach a big anodized locker to your belay loop so its in prime position to hit your nuts. Double russian Ti icescrews on your side loops positioned for maximal anal rape when you sit down. Then everyone will know your radness
    More stoke, less shit.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hacksaw View Post
    Most heliski guides in the USA/Alaska are not AMGA ski guides.
    Wich is EXACTLY why its a shit show!

    I probally higher and work with more guides than most as course for the work I do. I am 100% completly over how in the US any one can claim and does claim that they are a guide with ZERO certs beyond basic first aid. So requiring AMGA / UGIAM etc is a good thing. Now what those certs end up requiring may or may not be overkill, but I strongly feel that if you are going to guide, you should be certified in skills far greater than what you imagine you might actually need, so when shit hits the fan you are still able to comfortably operate within your comfort zone. I don't hire guides to take me in to the mountains, I hire, guides to have an unbiased view point on if our objectives are safe, and to have the needed resources if shit hits the fan and a rescue scenario is needed. Over the years, I have worked with some amazing guides that are not certified, but thats far from the par for course. In general I can say almost 99% of the guides that I have worked with, and would higher again are certified in either AMGA or UIAGM. At least if they are certified you know your are at least getting a base level of professionalism.

  24. #74
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    Few would argue that guides in big terrain like AK, or working in conditions or with the type of athlete Gunder works with should be well trained with some sort of high end certification. The question really is how well trained and certified should ski guides be for meadow skipping type guiding? A lot of ski guiding is on mellow terrain for intermediate skiers who want a ski experience outside the resort. The classic example is the tourist who is spending a week at J-hole, but wants to ski a day on Teton Pass. Sure the guide needs basic skills, first aid, rescue techniques, avi training, et al, but does he/she need advanced rock and ice skills, or alpine route finding, etc.?

    I do think anybody who is taking clients out should have some training and certification, the issue is how much and how broad. Does a top rope gym instructor need to be UIAGM certified.

    I agree it is a constitutional right for Americans to be assholes...its just too bad that so many take the opportunity...
    iscariot

  25. #75
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    Is anybody here an AMGA ski guide.....

    Quote Originally Posted by _Aaron_ View Post
    Can you make skiing 50deg terrain look good in all conditions? For example, linked consistent shaped turns, shoulders in the fall line etc?

    I think there is some videos on the AMGA website as well.
    Yes, I think so. I have skied more than 40 couloirs or faces steeper than 40 degrees. I watched the video from amga website.

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