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  1. #26
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    Just here to add that any-day my 5010 carbon w/ Pike will be in my garage and I'm pretty damn stoked.

    Seems like a great bike for me as I'm too lame to justify a Bronson or other endurbro rig, and I like climbing a lot.

    68* HT, short chainstays and a low BB? Perfect.

    The SB5 was certainly at the top of the list too, but mucho $$$

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by biggins View Post
    Yeah, the Bronson is a terrible bike. If you buy one throw it away immediately, or give it to a homeless person. There's no fun to be had on one.

    SCs are shorter (I'm a big dude with a not so long torso- I like the "cramped cockpit" of my Bronson), Transitions and Konas are longer. Process 153 was #1 on my list until I rode it and the reach was too much for me. Again, I am a bit of a T-Rex in the torso, so that was my only hang-up with the Process. It was a super fun bike, just not right for me.
    Sorry if I've offended you biggins. It certainly isn't a terrible bike. I've been over this before but it was more or less a band-aid bike to get a 27.5 Blur to market at soon as possible. In any case, I get to ride a lot of bikes. The Bronson isn't *bad* but would be nowhere near the top of my list if I was going out and buying something new. This is based on how the suspension reacts when pushed hard.

    You *can* tune the shock to work just fine (increase lsc, tune air spring to be more supportive in the mid stroke) and if given to me, I'm sure I could set it up, in time, to work great.

    But again, there are better options IMO.

    Put another way my dad would dig it. Sort of the new 575 in a way. Responds well to slow/medium passive riding. (in stock tune)

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    It's pretty much just the evolution of the rail linkage that's been on their DH bike for a long time.
    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo View Post
    Affectionately known as "two dicks in a box"


    To the OP:
    Another vote for the 5010 if you go with the shorter travel stuff. Those bikes are fun. Just not as monster truck as some of the others.
    It looks expensive, and high maintenance.
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    It looks expensive, and high maintenance.
    It is pricey, but you should read a few of the 900 or so articles out there about it. The dicks are basically pulled straight from Fox's off-road technology and have been completely abused/immersed in muddy slurries for a million cycles or so/tested for 2 years.

    I'm replacing my Warden with a SB5, so if it fucks up y'all will be the second to know. I'm not worried about it.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowtron's ghost View Post
    It is pricey, but you should read a few of the 900 or so articles out there about it. The dicks are basically pulled straight from Fox's off-road technology and have been completely abused/immersed in muddy slurries for a million cycles or so/tested for 2 years.

    .
    Agree with this. Just cause it looks different doesn't mean it is necessarily worse. Embrace change.

    FWIW rumor is the reason they *really* went that direction was because they lost the license on the eccentric link. Didn't move enough units or something... This basically does what that did but gets around the previous agreement.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffreyJim View Post
    Agree with this. Just cause it looks different doesn't mean it is necessarily worse. Embrace change.

    FWIW rumor is the reason they *really* went that direction was because they lost the license on the eccentric link. Didn't move enough units or something... This basically does what that did but gets around the previous agreement.
    This makes sense. They were licensing the design from Sotto or something while at the same time getting sued by other bike companies. It makes for a very expensive design.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffreyJim View Post
    Agree with this. Just cause it looks different doesn't mean it is necessarily worse. Embrace change.

    FWIW rumor is the reason they *really* went that direction was because they lost the license on the eccentric link. Didn't move enough units or something... This basically does what that did but gets around the previous agreement.
    That's interesting. Those pivots sucked anyways. I did a lot of service on those things.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffreyJim View Post
    Agree with this. Just cause it looks different doesn't mean it is necessarily worse. Embrace change.

    FWIW rumor is the reason they *really* went that direction was because they lost the license on the eccentric link. Didn't move enough units or something... This basically does what that did but gets around the previous agreement.
    The thing is, it doesn't look different. It looks like an expensive gimmick. They added a suspension system to a suspension system? Then they made it carbon and 27.5 so they could hit all the buzz words and charge as much as a car for a bicycle.
    And it seems like the easy 27.5 answer has made or allowed a lot of mainstream companies to stop trying to make 29ers fun to ride, let alone 26ers that are more stable and have good bump compliance.
    None of the above things are really applicable though if you spend $5,000 on a bike, though.





    OMG, has riding a steel hardtail 29er made me a bitter douchebag hippster a la the rawj?
    Shit, I'm sorry. Carry on.
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    The thing is, it doesn't look different. It looks like an expensive gimmick. They added a suspension system to a suspension system? Then they made it carbon and 27.5 so they could hit all the buzz words and charge as much as a car for a bicycle.
    And it seems like the easy 27.5 answer has made or allowed a lot of mainstream companies to stop trying to make 29ers fun to ride, let alone 26ers that are more stable and have good bump compliance.
    None of the above things are really applicable though if you spend $5,000 on a bike, though.





    OMG, has riding a steel hardtail 29er made me a bitter douchebag hippster a la the rawj?
    Shit, I'm sorry. Carry on.
    The phrase "Donny you are out of your element" have never rung more true. I'm grumpy so have no "PC filter".

    Where to begin.

    1) Its not a "suspension system". I suggest you understand how it works before you begin commenting on the legitimacy of the system. Those "shocks" are not in fact suspension dampers.

    2) Everything in the cycling world, more or less, is an incremental improvement. This is how progression usually happens. Do you need it to have fun? Nope. But if you are racing, a geek or just like nice shit its sorta fun.

    3) How doesn't that design look different?

  10. #35
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    Thanks for a ton of good replies. YES, I should demo bikes but talking about it during a dry winter period is fun too.
    Kidwoo - If I knew the geometry I wanted, I wouldn't be asking these questions but I ain't that smart.
    More info: I'm 5'9", 160 lbs. I'm 45 years old which means I've been riding for a while but I no longer think crashing should be part of every ride. I'm looking for a bike that improves my downhill confidence without making the up any harder. The features I "think" will help relative to my 575 are a slacker front end, lower bb, updated suspension, stiffer wheels and better brakes.
    Anything else? I sort of settled on 67deg HA which is why I was looking at the Bronson over the 5010 but really I don't know shit.
    The brands I listed are available locally at shops I know well which makes life easier.
    I also am having a tough time buying the 1X hype. My chicken legs like to have a low granny gear so I'm looking at bikes that still offer that.
    Enduro may be too slack and (I think) only offering the 1X drivetrain. Bronson seemed to hit as many target areas as anything else but maybe the 5010 would work just as well for me and climb better. One buddy certainly loved his last year.
    Anyone ride the Scott Genius bikes recently? Not much info out there.
    Last edited by sar13; 02-23-2015 at 02:30 PM.

  11. #36
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    Don't discount the 1x drivetrain. It really is soooo much better than running a front derailleur. With lots of the setups you can run something like a 28 tooth ring up front. I think you might even be able to run a 26t. You won't have a big high end gear, but it doesn't sound like that would be a big deal to you.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by sar13 View Post
    Thanks for a ton of good replies. YES, I should demo bikes but talking about it during a dry winter period is fun too.
    Kidwoo - If I knew the geometry I wanted, I wouldn't be asking these questions but I ain't that smart.
    More info: I'm 5'9", 160 lbs. I'm 45 years old which means I've been riding for a while but I no longer think crashing should be part of every ride. I'm looking for a bike that improves my downhill confidence without making the up any harder. The features I "think" will help relative to my 575 are a slacker front end, lower bb, updated suspension, stiffer wheels and better brakes.
    Anything else? I sort of settled on 67deg HA which is why I was looking at the Bronson over the 5010 but really I don't know shit.
    The brands I listed are available locally at shops I know well which makes life easier.
    I also am having a tough time buying the 1X hype. My chicken legs like to have a low granny gear so I'm looking at bikes that still offer that.
    Enduro may be too slack and (I think) only offering the 1X drivetrain. Bronson seemed to hit as many target areas as anything else but maybe the 5010 would work just as well for me and climb better. One buddy certainly loved his last year.
    Anyone ride the Scott Genius bikes recently? Not much info out there.
    This helps. What are you favorite trails in the area? What do you want to ride more/less of?

    Couple things.

    1) Don't get too caught up in one number. Last year I rode bikes with as steep as a 68 degree headtube angle and as slack as 65. To hang your hat on one number is silly. They all have to work together.

    2) That said, if you get on something and find you want steeper or slacker, the Worlks Headset is awesome and will work on nearly every bike you are looking at.

    3) I think you'll be fine on a 1x with a 30 tooth chainring. I'd strongly encourage you to ditch that front deraileur. Pretty nice to have a dead quiet bike.

    Couple suggestions you probably haven't thought about...

    Ibis Ripley - I built one with a Pike last year and it was awesome for what you are looking for. Ended up putting a Works headset on it and even raced a few enduro events on it (and had an XC been close by would have raced XC too!). It was the only bike I've been on that was near XC efficiency but still allowed me to really rally a DH. Truth be told, I wasn't as fast as I was on my real enduro rig (by about 1-2 seconds for every minute) but we're splitting hairs. Its a bike that can make you a better rider. Especially at your weight.

    Ibis HD3. Haven't ridden one but it'll probably fit the bill nicely. 150mm travel, light, and DW link is pretty good at keeping bikes moving the direction you intend.

    Transition - Totally different direction than the Ibis stuff as you'll be buying something that is 1 pound heavier than it needs to be. But it'll last and the new hotness rides *really* well. Especially on the down.

    Stay away from the scott stuff.

  13. #38
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    I rode the Genius within a few hours of the SB5, and can't remember liking two more different bikes. Don't think I'd own a Genius because small bump compliance inspired slow cornering, but I found the ability to sit up a half degree in "pedal mode" useful. Worth about half a downshift in my case, but overall it really is tuned for the up. Too much so for me, and probably you, too, from your description. It's a testament to how well the SB5 pedaled that the only pedaling difference I found meaningful was the two-mode feature; the Genius might be the best uphill bike I've ridden.

  14. #39
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    I live in town and ride the Snow King area/ Ferrin's, etc more than anything. If I had the time I'd ride the Pass a lot more. Favorite is Phillips Ridge but I'll ride most everything up there but take the B line around bigger gaps on Parallel. Riding the Village has given me more confidence in the air but I'd like to improve my confidence and speed. I'll probably still skip the bigger gaps but would like to be faster/smoother over the hits I do ride.
    HA is just one way I have split up different bikes but I realize I need to look at the whole picture. It seems like quite frequently bikes that sync with my goals are around 67deg for HA.
    I might end up going 1X but between long, steep ups (rocky climbs during the occasional Moab trip) and road access loops (Fish Crk Rd and crossing town) I'm thinking 2X at this point.
    Wasn't thinking 29 but the Ripley looks interesting.
    Love the sound of the HD3. Not such a fan of the price but...
    Transition Scout look interesting too
    and both are at the same shop locally. Might be worth demoing.

  15. #40
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    Given that I work for a bike company my opinion is biased but if I didn't, I'd base my decision off what suspension platform first and then other geo numbers second. Plenty of great designs out there from Maestro, DW, etc. Also plenty of marketing hype to go along with it. I'll tell you one thing is that a lot of the small companies like Santa Cruz offer shit margin to their retailers compared to the majors. What that means for the consumer is you're more likely to see a retailer blowing out a SC than a Trek, Specialized, Giant. PM me if you have any questions.

  16. #41
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    I stand corrected. It is a rubber baby bucky bumper. Is the fact that they made it look like suspension why it starts at $6,600 complete, or do I at least get a reacharound while being raped like that?
    Oh, and sar, 29ers are not your friend if you want confidence in the air. I got one because I suck and I don't air. You might still like a 26". But with a 2x? Man, that's so 2 years ago.
    I fucking hate the bike industry.
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman View Post
    Given that I work for a bike company my opinion is biased but if I didn't, I'd base my decision off what suspension platform first and then other geo numbers second. Plenty of great designs out there from Maestro, DW, etc. Also plenty of marketing hype to go along with it. I'll tell you one thing is that a lot of the small companies like Santa Cruz offer shit margin to their retailers compared to the majors. What that means for the consumer is you're more likely to see a retailer blowing out a SC than a Trek, Specialized, Giant. PM me if you have any questions.
    Santa Cruz doesn't offer keystone markups? At least they don't use a bunch of proprietary shit like the big 3.
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  18. #43
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    Seriously, in what other industry does technology keep getting MORE expensive? More planned obsolescence more "standards," more carbon fiber...
    Guns and hunting, maybe. That's why I got rid of the .270. I might get rid of the .22 for the right price, but it's not worth much.
    It's gotta be the most ridiculous racket I've ever seen. I guess it's my fault for not making a lot of money.
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  19. #44
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    Honestly demoing is the *only* way to make a decision like this.

    And yeah, 150-160 is a lot of overkill for what you are riding. I'd say stick to 120-130mm. It'll be far more enjoyable. Think of it this way...rocking a 150-160mm bike on Ferrins is like skiing the King on a 120mm waisted brawler more suitable for AK. Its not really un-fun but its really not the right tool for the job.

    The 120-130mm bikes these days are unreal fun. And unreal capable. If you have doubts, again, I rallied that Ripley all over the pass without concern (hit everything too!). I don't tell you this to pump my own ego up but to imply "that bike is capable!"

    Less travel in a way will help you become a better rider and you'll have more fun by not toting around all that weight you really (really) don't need.

    J

    (side note, my fastest Ferrins descent was on the Ripley - not the 165mm enduro bike I own)

  20. #45
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    I like the idea of choosing based on suspension platform but lacking the demo days at this point that's kinda tough.

    Not sure why a retailer would blow out a low margin line more than a high margin one. In my ski shop days I knew who we had the best margins with and could push the price conscious buyer in that direction while the quality conscious buyer was willing to pay for what they wanted.

    Thanks though

  21. #46
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    Happy to stay in the 5" range (SB5 is my top choice except for price). As it turns out, if you ask folks what 5" travel bike to get, a lot of them start listing 6" travel rides. I'm just trying not to exclude anything at this point. Except Scott and the Bronson apparently

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by sar13 View Post
    Happy to stay in the 5" range (SB5 is my top choice except for price). As it turns out, if you ask folks what 5" travel bike to get, a lot of them start listing 6" travel rides. I'm just trying not to exclude anything at this point. Except Scott and the Bronson apparently

    FWIW - My complaints with the Bronson are far more granular than that of the Scott...

    Edit: I'll take the bike that fits well over the bike with the hottest suspension platform. (all things in moderation obviously)

    I know Aaron demos most of his rigs. At least Ripleys!

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Seriously, in what other industry does technology keep getting MORE expensive? More planned obsolescence more "standards," more carbon fiber...
    Guns and hunting, maybe. That's why I got rid of the .270. I might get rid of the .22 for the right price, but it's not worth much.
    It's gotta be the most ridiculous racket I've ever seen. I guess it's my fault for not making a lot of money.
    Healthcare.

    I'm really confused at the hunting comment but I guess I really should just stop trying to make sense of your posts.

    Just because you can't afford something doesn't mean it needs to make sense to you. Jealousy is an evil drug.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman View Post
    Given that I work for a bike company my opinion is biased but if I didn't, I'd base my decision off what suspension platform first and then other geo numbers second. Plenty of great designs out there from Maestro, DW, etc. Also plenty of marketing hype to go along with it.
    I don't work for a bike company, but I'd do the exact opposite of this unless you already have a really good idea of how different suspension platforms perform and which one suits your riding style.

    Most riders can tell the difference between different geometries; a slacker vs. steeper head angle has a readily apparent effect on the bike's handling. Same goes for a longer vs. shorter reach, a higher vs. lower BB, etc. Sure, the geometry has to be taken as a whole, the suspension effects the geometry once the bike is weighted, and anyone who says that they can glance at a geo table and give the full story on a bike is full of shit, but the basic geometry of a bike tells a lot about what its intended purpose is and how it will behave.

    Suspension, on the other hand, is far more variable. Even if you favor a given suspension platform, pretty much every platform has a ton of variations, many of which perform quite a bit differently from each other. So just because you rode one VPP bike that you liked doesn't mean that some other VPP bike is going to ride just like it. As evidence, look no further than this thread - the SC 5010 and Nomad are getting a bunch of love, but the Bronson is getting shat on, even though it's the same basic design (as a brief aside, I liked the Bronson a lot, but it was still a little timid on descents compared to some of its competitors). Plus there's the whole issue of suspension setup, which is a huge can of worms and has a massive effect on how a bike will ride; it can easily make two identical bikes with the same suspension platform feel completely different.

    In other words, I think it's a lot easier to make an accurate assessment of a bike's geometry than it is of a bike's suspension.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    I don't work for a bike company, but I'd do the exact opposite of this unless you already have a really good idea of how different suspension platforms perform and which one suits your riding style.

    Most riders can tell the difference between different geometries; a slacker vs. steeper head angle has a readily apparent effect on the bike's handling. Same goes for a longer vs. shorter reach, a higher vs. lower BB, etc. Sure, the geometry has to be taken as a whole, the suspension effects the geometry once the bike is weighted, and anyone who says that they can glance at a geo table and give the full story on a bike is full of shit, but the basic geometry of a bike tells a lot about what its intended purpose is and how it will behave.

    Suspension, on the other hand, is far more variable. Even if you favor a given suspension platform, pretty much every platform has a ton of variations, many of which perform quite a bit differently from each other. So just because you rode one VPP bike that you liked doesn't mean that some other VPP bike is going to ride just like it. As evidence, look no further than this thread - the SC 5010 and Nomad are getting a bunch of love, but the Bronson is getting shat on, even though it's the same basic design (as a brief aside, I liked the Bronson a lot, but it was still a little timid on descents compared to some of its competitors). Plus there's the whole issue of suspension setup, which is a huge can of worms and has a massive effect on how a bike will ride; it can easily make two identical bikes with the same suspension platform feel completely different.

    In other words, I think it's a lot easier to make an accurate assessment of a bike's geometry than it is of a bike's suspension.
    ^^^This

    I'll take a single pivot with a good shock, good tires and good numbers (geo) over the hottest/latest/greatest suspension platform.

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