Flagstaff's new bike park

[raisingarizona13]

Phase one of the Fort Tuthill bike park has been completed and consists of three trails, beg. to expert "flow" trails. I got some footage yesterday and threw this vid short together last night.

I still can't figure out how to post vids ever since the sight was changed. Hopefully someone can help me out, thanks.

[gravitylover]

Looks like fun!

When did you film that? Is it really t shirt weather there this winter? Bummer for winter great for year round riding.

[raisingarizona13]

This was two days ago. Winter? I'm not sure what that's like any more.

The biking sure is good right now.

The south west is going to burn up this coming spring/summer.

[forty]

sweet!
how did it ride? condition?
can definitely tell it was done by the flowride kids, same folk who came and worked with us at our park, rad guys, they hit flagstaff right after leaving here, felt bad working them to the bone and sending them off to another big project haha

[creaky fossil]

How did the bike park designer/builder deal with the terrified voices who fear litigation and liability? Typically govt entities in the 21st Century are unwilling to create such ...uh... "dangerous" public facilities and are more inclined to vote Yes on things that are bland and safe, but un-fun.

[kidwoo]

Meh.
Places like this are popping up everywhere. The park here has straight up doubles in one line with many more bigger ones coming in two months. The one in Park City blows away most non-sanctioned spots with some genuinely scary sized lips and landings.

Just like skateparks 15-20 years ago, once a few get started, people realize this is no more dangerous than getting clocked in the head with a baseball or getting shoved into a soccer goal post.

The only thing worse than irrational fear is drummed up fear of irrational fear (FDR yo) keeping people from doing things. It's worth accepting when that phase has passed instead of holding onto problem as an excuse to do nothing. So we can worry about important dangerous things like measles vaccinations........

It's good to see this stuff. Nice work Flagstaff and Co.

[creaky fossil]

Meh.
Places like this are popping up everywhere. The park here has straight up doubles in one line with many more bigger ones coming in two months. The one in Park City blows away most non-sanctioned spots with some genuinely scary sized lips and landings.

Just like skateparks 15-20 years ago, once a few get started, people realize this is no more dangerous than getting clocked in the head with a baseball or getting shoved into a soccer goal post.

I guess this is just one more issue where uberzoola is well behind the curve, then. At least we have SOUL in the middle of the town name. But how do we get more people like those who live in places where this stuff is approved w/o issue? Can we ship the whingers, gripers and paranoids to some other town and replace them with sensible people from Tahoe or Flagstaff?

[kidwoo]

Has anyone in Missoula tried to get something like this on a county, city, or state park?

It (obviously) seems mostly a generational change with younger people getting into jobs where these decisions get made. Just like with the USFS districts, who sits in the chair matters more than anything. That and someone getting motivated enough to hassle them, preferably with some funding.

The one here is on city land FWIW. I'm curious about the one in Park City. Pics of that place genuinely blew me away. It looked like something you'd see hidden in the woods.

[Rico in Flag]

Can we ship the whingers, gripers and paranoids to some other town and replace them with sensible people from Tahoe or Flagstaff?

Heh heh, that's funny, you think we got sensible people here?! (j/k, we have our share of whiners, gripers and paranoids.) I have no idea how the county park made peace with the liability issue.
I would find it hard to believe Missoula wouldn't have a bike park. Flag is very similar to Missoula.

Seriously, we have Bell Helmets to thank. Flag won the bike park contest, so this is phase one of the project. Phase two and three are much more of an unknown. On the counter of every bike shop in town, change cans for the next phases are pushing out the cans for the march of dimes kids. Coconino county couldn't have built this on their own, they're broke.

[creaky fossil]

Has anyone in Missoula tried to get something like this on a county, city, or state park?

Various people including myself tried in the past; we have the same person in power now at Uberzoola Amy Poehler (Parks & Rec) since those days; same Mayor; City Council members slightly different but not really voting differently. I think it's more about the particular paranoia that Missoula's townspeople harbor. And we have a durable history of bicycle-blaming in this town, Sam & Andy Schultz notwithstanding.

When our skatepark was built in 2000s decade, it was thanks to Pearl Jam Power, the celebrity of Jeff Ament outweighing the constant paranoia of the townfolk on behalf of their precious snowflakes. For a bike park, you'd think the Schultz bros would be celebrity enough, but apparently bike racers don't rank with rock stars. Who knew?

Heh heh, that's funny, you think we got sensible people here?! (j/k, we have our share of whiners, gripers and paranoids.) I have no idea how the county park made peace with the liability issue.
I would find it hard to believe Missoula wouldn't have a bike park. Flag is very similar to Missoula.

Seriously, we have Bell Helmets to thank. Flag won the bike park contest, so this is phase one of the project. Phase two and three are much more of an unknown. On the counter of every bike shop in town, change cans for the next phases are pushing out the cans for the march of dimes kids. Coconino county couldn't have built this on their own, they're broke.

Interesting. So what tipped the balance? Was it the $$? Was it the public notoriety of an outside entity (Bell Helmets) being affiliated? I've been to Flagstaff, it does seem similar in many ways, and I wouldn't think the residents here would be that different in attitude from those in Flagstaff.

Mid-2000s we proposed a bike facility on some brownfields land in the downtown-ish region, city told us to forget about it and try to convince the ski areas to build it on their land. The land had been sitting dormant for decades. Of course, now it's got some luxury condos on it, and a bizarre "urban park" that is as artificial as astroturf. And a stadium. But we're supposed to be an outdoor rec town.

[kidwoo]

I think it's more about the particular paranoia that Missoula's townspeople harbor.

Explains the 'guns as a lifestyle' thing.

When our skatepark was built in 2000s decade, it was thanks to Pearl Jam Power, the celebrity of Jeff Ament outweighing the constant paranoia of the townfolk on behalf of their precious snowflakes.

Huh? What did Jeff Ament do for a skatepark in Missoula? I'm not sure celebrity presence is required. It wasn't in any of the other parks I know about. Speaking of which, you know about the one in Boise right? These things exist. Maybe it's time to approach your locals again with a stack full of precedent.

[creaky fossil]

Ament argued for it and gave some $$$. As I understand it, the mention of his rock star-ness tipped the balance for the city govt people, and the $$$ donation was not anything close to being more than a drop in the bucket toward full construction costs, but it's probably lots more than any citizen gave, and Ament's not even a citizen of the town these days. The real story, though, would be hard to get in this town of smarmy slicksters who are masters at Not Me when it's blame and Me Me Me when it can be creditworthy.

The precedent argument is a good suggestion but practically speaking would fall on deaf ears now, our city council just voted to approve expensive soccer fields construction even though we have a shit-ton of soccer fields in the town/region. (Again the yuppie transplant issue raises its ugly head.) The best location for the bikepark would have been those brownfields I mentioned, they're adjacent to a city park and a greenway bike path. Unsurprisingly, real estate development was more attractive to the city govt, but they wouldn't admit that publicly.

[joetron]

Park City's park is on town land, it used to be the Xmas tree dump.

The two parks I've watched mature, PC and Barnum in Denver both started out with kind of goofy 'safety' jumps that were tall, short in length and pretty steep(not safe); then there were also mellower 'true' tabletops. Both were built by 'pros', I think both had some IMBA involvement (which for better or worse seems to calm the powers-that-be during presentation and planning). Soon after completion though, both parks were handed over to local volunteers who got after it and vastly improved them.

The Flowline guys seem to be doing a great job of just building things well the first time through. Shea was a landscape architect before he started traveling the world and digging, and he makes awesome drawings of the proposed parks and his presentations are super pro...I think that helps too.

[Rico in Flag]

So what tipped the balance? Was it the $$? Was it the public notoriety of an outside entity (Bell Helmets) being affiliated? I've been to Flagstaff, it does seem similar in many ways, and I wouldn't think the residents here would be that different in attitude from those in Flagstaff.

I should say I'm hardly an insider, but I do pay attention to what's going on around here. So, my guess what tipped the balance is that the money (Bell's $) showed up. The bike park was all designed and coordinated through our local bike advocacy group, Flagstaff Biking Organiztion. And then we won the Bell contest. The bike park is on a huge and under-utilized county park. And I think the county parks and rec people wanted to do something like this but couldn't on their own resources. And then the Bell money came in, and they couldn't say no. And even then, it was the local mtb and construction community that showed up with backhoes, Bobcats, and shovels. The county didn't do much except truck in the dirt.

Missoula surely has a bike advocacy group right? Maybe they need to champion the idea of a bike park, then start looking for funding and a piece of dirt that doesn't look a developer's dream.

The thing is, when bike parks are on municipal land, said municipality sees it as a potential cost every year in the future. It becomes a budget liability to the parks and rec departments, like who's gonna pay for the water to water down the jumps, who's gonna pay for trash collection at the park, etc... I don't know what it's like in MT, but our local municipalities are nearly broke and haven't recovered from the recession.

(I gotta get down to the park and work on my skills.)

[jamal]

There is that ride for Tanner bike park in the works. My understanding is that the goal is to start work on it this year. Helmet party fundraiser is at the beginning of april so I assume some new info will come out around then.

[creaky fossil]

Explains the 'guns as a lifestyle' thing.

I wanted to laugh at that but the bitter truth is the opposition isn't from the shooters, it's from the gun-fearers who are pretty quickly starting to dominate this town's political culture. Missoula's always been the most un-Montana part of Montana (true life bumper sticker: Missoula, only 30 mins from Montana), but lately it's really stuffed to the gills with pantywaisted people with money, time, and lots of ego to spare. The shooters, meanwhile, are pulling up stakes and moving away, and their houses are being razed and replaced with McMansions (if in a swanky part of town) or MUDs (elsewhere in town). Honestly I think we have a better chance of getting a nuke plant built in town than we do getting a bike park.

There is that ride for Tanner bike park in the works. My understanding is that the goal is to start work on it this year. Helmet party fundraiser is at the beginning of april so I assume some new info will come out around then.

I was going to mention RFT but I wasn't sure how far that project had gone or where it's going. Is it happening at Marshall Mtn? That's what it was going to be last time I talked about this with someone who appeared to be somewhat connected (but don't want to name here).

[grskier]

If we can get several in our valley.... and a ski area to supplement with it's own flow trail... I wouldn't doubt Missoula could eventually get in on the action. But I obviously don't know the local political scene. The big thing for us is the dedicated property tax that goes to open space, and how committed the locals are to the program. Many big time property owners seek to put conservation easements or turn their property over to help preserve rural character.

[zombinate]

My general impression is that it is much easier to get things like this past the city/county/land manager if the money is taken care of. Whether that comes from a local advocacy group, bell-esque award, or angel investor, cash in hand (or at least promised) greases the wheels.
Also, a real group to build it helps. Too many times I see "proposals made by 2 guys with truckers hats", and no other backing besides their ambition. Ambition is great, but bike parks take a huge amount of work, and 2 guys aren't going to cut it. A real, local, coalition is important, and getting those folks to show up, even more so.
So there it is, Real money and people.

[creaky fossil]

True enough, universal even in most urban/suburban settings 'round major cities. Uberzoola, thanks to its explosive growth (in amount) and radical shift in town attitude (type of growth), now is a town that is partly old-boy-network, old-ways oriented and that path quickly is being displaced by the more 21st Century PowerPoint Pro Production approach. The lady who has been at the helm relevant in Parks/Rec has historically been old-school, informal and offering formalities wasn't the issue for her. But top-down that might have changed. The skatepark and Ament's input could be the template now, but at the time they were seen as one-off. The whole landscape is like that friggin' The Perfect Storm movie/book's ocean. Add into the mix now that your Pro Presentation has to be tuned politically, which is why I mentioned the problem of paranoids, etc.

[Yonder_River]

We have dirt ramps a block from our house and right next to a sweet skatepark, all in the middle of Seattle. Times have changed, luckily.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using TGR Forums

[jamal]

Last year the unofficial dirt jump park got bulldozed:

http://missoulian.com/news/local/cit...a4bcf887a.html
http://missoulanews.bigskypress.com/...ake-gravel-pit

[kidwoo]

Last year the unofficial dirt jump park got bulldozed:

http://missoulian.com/news/local/cit...a4bcf887a.html
http://missoulanews.bigskypress.com/...ake-gravel-pit

And there ya go!

“For the record, the Missoula parks department strongly supports mountain biking and believes that a bike skills park would be a good thing for Missoula,” he wrote. “In the past 3-plus years, we have been working closely with the mountain biking community, local bike shops and the ‘I Ride for Tanner’ nonprofit to find a home for a bike skills park. Someday, hopefully sooner rather than later, this park will become a reality.”

And as usual, how this often gets started.......

“A few weeks ago, we received complaints from some hikers about an extensive mountain bike jump course

I'm always so glad the fun police are out there protecting us from ourselves. Such hard and thankless work.


I hope the tanner park ends up being something worthwhile for you guys. I think as a whole, nationally, we're getting away from bomber places being replaced by useless piles of shit that no one wants to ride. Anyone in California remember Calabassas?

[creaky fossil]

And there ya go!

And as usual, how this often gets started.......

See the 2-faced position of the city? They think it's essential yet they refused to take the notion further than saying No when approached about it in the mid-00s, and they bulldozed CW's jump park.

If it was USFS I'd understand, they've always told us new trails are going to have to be in ski area settings, and never said publicly they want new trails or that new trails are needed.

Missoula surely has a bike advocacy group right? Maybe they need to champion the idea of a bike park, then start looking for funding and a piece of dirt that doesn't look a developer's dream.

Yeah there is one, it's had 3 different directions and identities since I've been here, I was involved early 00s and friends were involved through mid 00s but all of us tired of pushing Sisyphus's boulder up the hill. The current group seems better connected politically, but less adept at trail construction. They've done one new trail on city land that sees lots of traffic, and a smaller reroute elsewhere on city land. Both projects were sub-par compared to what got built in 00s when USFS let us do 2 projects on its land. But they have the govt's ear, at least. As with all things, the new group sees me & my friends as geezers since we're old guard. My friends were a shift from the people before us, who spent most of their efforts on not losing trail access.

[toast2266]

Last year the unofficial dirt jump park got bulldozed:

http://missoulian.com/news/local/cit...a4bcf887a.html
http://missoulanews.bigskypress.com/...ake-gravel-pit

That's not the first time. There used to be a full BMX track (with a starting hill and everything) that had a bunch of dirt jumps next to it. It was in Spurgin Park out west of reserve. It had a parking lot and I think they even had the area plumbed so the jumps could be watered. They leveled the whole thing about 7 years ago and it's now a vacant field that's probably a really nice place to do meth.

It's funny - up here we're kind of the opposite. We have a city sanctioned dirt jump park with 4 lines in it, from very small to decently large. But everyone who likes to ride dirt jumps has their own private set of jumps in their backyard, so no one uses the city jumps. The city would probably be willing to throw a nominal sum of money at the park, but whenever we fix the jumps up, they fall apart within a month or so due to non-use. I think that can be classified as a first world problem.

[kidwoo]

See the 2-faced position of the city? They think it's essential yet they refused to take the notion further than saying No when approached about it in the mid-00s, and they bulldozed CW's jump park.
.

As a time based thing maybe........
But just based on that article, I don't. Things change.

There is that ride for Tanner bike park in the works. My understanding is that the goal is to start work on it this year. Helmet party fundraiser is at the beginning of april so I assume some new info will come out around then.

I would argue with the necessary order of events but it sounds like there's a concession being made to allow for that 'type' of facility in a public park context. Even if it's literally the same people that said no previously, it's progress. It's a kinda BS they couldn't retroactively just turn the tamarack spot INTO a park if it really were on city property but it's not like the whole idea is being quashed.

All kinds of things were turned down in the mid 2000's, including mountain bike specific trails on USFS land. That doesn't mean people shouldn't act on the changing atmosphere. Being right and holding grudges doesn't matter. Getting places to ride does. I don't care what the PCTA says today if they start telling me we can use the trail tomorrow.

My real conclusion is this is why whiners just need to be ignored. They put the city in a position where they felt like they needed to act.....so they did. Poorly, but if those calls had never started, those jumps would still be there.

Either way, I hope the tanner thing comes through. If anyone reading this is looking for build crews, shoot me a PM. I know some guys. They've done a few of these at this point and do them better than most. Coloradans along vail-ish 1-70 should know a little of their work by now.