Wiring question about GFCI w/ no ground

[Flyoverland Captive]

I'm helping friends do a kitchen remodel in an old house. They have a GFCI outlet above a counter. It's black, they want white, so I take it out. The wire feeding the outlet is old, and has no ground. Whoever installed the black outlet connected the neutral feed to the neutral terminal on the outlet AND the ground screw. I've never seen this before; is this correct? Should I duplicate it on the new one, or just connect the hot and neutral wires and ignore the ground? There's no way to run a new wire, so I have to use what's there. Help!

[spudbumkin]

Black wire to brass screw, white wire to silver screw, nothing on ground screw. Standard procedure for old 2 wire circuit. GFCI will still function properly.

[teletripper]

^^^^
This in a lot of older houses the sheathing on the MC is your ground.

[Flyoverland Captive]

That's what I thought; I've just never seen anyone wire the neutral to the ground too.

[warthog]

Shared Neutral/Ground is actually a code violation.

You can meet code in old houses by using GFCI at every receptacle. The GFCI reads what goes out vs. what comes back. If it varies by more than 4-6 ma, it trips. No ground is needed.

My old house was built in 1938, and had no ground. I met code by replacing every receptacle with a GFCI. I get them free, so it was pretty cost effective, but it still would be cheaper than stringing a new ground.

[crackboy]

can't you just ground to metal box?

[spudbumkin]

If the circuit was ran in EMT conduit back to the panel, the box would be grounded. Typically in houses though, the circuits are run in romex and boxes are nailed to wood studs, so box is not grounded unless bonded to the ground wire of modern romex. The OPs romex is old style 2 wire, no ground wire.

[Flyoverland Captive]

It's a metal box, with no conduit. This thing is ancient; there's a large corroded copper-colored round nut at the back, which may be some sort of ground, but I don't know for sure. I found the wire where it enters the wall from the basement, and there is no conduit or ground wire, just the two-strand wire that comes out at the box.

When I say ancient, I mean fabric-coated-with-rubber ancient.

[irul&ublo]

It's a metal box, with no conduit. This thing is ancient; there's a large corroded copper-colored round nut at the back, which may be some sort of ground, but I don't know for sure. I found the wire where it enters the wall from the basement, and there is no conduit or ground wire, just the two-strand wire that comes out at the box.

When I say ancient, I mean fabric-coated-with-rubber ancient.

and BTW, probably w/ asbestos fibers in the insulation. breathe deep

[strawjack]

If you have access to run a new wire I would do that maybe. Although, what is your panel? Breakers or fuse?

Warthog knows what he's talking about.

[Flyoverland Captive]

Thanks Warthog and the rest of yous guys.

The main panel was replaced 20 years ago, and has breakers. Most of the wiring was replaced too, but some hard-to-get-to outlets were not changed. This is one in an inaccessible wall, no way to replace without a major tear-out. From the breaker, newer romex runs to a box in the basement, where the old wire is joined to it.

I've installed sub-panels, wired remodels, etc. and generally like to keep my circuits clean. One circuit for living room outlets, one for kitchen, one for microwave, etc. This house is a spaghetti-bowl of circuits: the outlet I'm fixing is in the main-floor kitchen, and is the same circuit as the basement sump-pump. There are four outlets above the kitchen counter, all on different circuits. Whenever the owners wanted a new outlet, they just grabbed whatever circuit was convenient and tapped into it. If it were my house, I'd be cleaning it all up, but it's not, so I just do what the owners ask.

[crackboy]

It's a metal box, with no conduit. This thing is ancient; there's a large corroded copper-colored round nut at the back, which may be some sort of ground, but I don't know for sure. I found the wire where it enters the wall from the basement, and there is no conduit or ground wire, just the two-strand wire that comes out at the box.

When I say ancient, I mean fabric-coated-with-rubber ancient.

i have the same stuff. pain in the ass. i went to replace an outlet this week, and the extre at the junction box had pretty much the entire insulation crumble off. i would just replace th run but i have no idea where it is coming from. my cut the wire back and throw in another junction lower down and nut in some new romex

[XXX-er]

when buying house insurance I get questions about the electrical, do house insurance companies not want to insure a house with old wiring and an 80 amp service?

[whipski]

Have VRBO from the 50's same deal. bought it in august and remodeled. about a month after the install of new forced air furnace a power surge and outage fried the computer in the furnace. Luckily replaced on warranty but the HVAC guy said next one is ours. Ran a ground to the furnace and the TV/wifi area and placed surge protectors . The gfci will protect you at that outlet only but any device plugged in could still get fried. A surge protector without a ground will not protect devices.
If you're thinking of skiing Monarch take a look.
http://www.vrbo.com/651694