Lower Leg Pain 3-4 Inches above ankle (Posterior Back Outside)

[ShaneSchmutz]

Lower Leg Pain 3-4 inches above ankle (Posterior Back Outside)

Hello,

I'm in Utah and like to ski aggressively and off piste. I'm beginning to think that maybe my problem is the Intuition Wrap Liners?

My brother and I have the exact same problem since buying new boots and Intuition Liners!

I've been getting real bad lower leg pain in the tendon that goes down the outside of the back of my leg and connects behind my ankle. Leaning back in my boots adds to the pain and it runs from my ankle up to mid calf. Twisting of the boot while it's in the ski can also cause pain.

By the end of the day my legs are tender to the touch and it hurts when I walk around. If I patiently wait to ski for a couple days, the pain doesn't come back until later in the ski day. If I ski the next day, it hurts after only a run or two. The worst conditions to exacerbate the symptoms are hard crud or anything that causes my skis to skip on the snow.

I skied 50+ days on Solomon Impact CS (110) boots with the stock liners in them and have had ankle pain in the past. My ankle would over pronate and push into the inside of my boots making my ankle bones sore. I corrected this with custom foot beds and by placing a pad-like extra "donut" material (sticky on the back) on the ankle areas of my liners. This seemed to help until they got packed out.

Last year, my brother moved home from Germany and he had Tecnica Cochise Pro Light boots with Intuition Wrap Liners. I tried them on and they felt very comfortable. I was particularly impressed with the Intuition liners. They felt thicker, more supportive, and they seemed like they wouldn't pack out as quickly (especially in the ankle area).

So, I bought the exact same set up (Tecnica Cochise Pro Light with Intuition Liner). Now I don't have ankle bone problems, I have a new problem.

My brother and I now have the exact same problem as described above (lower leg pain)! Our legs hurt on day two of hard skiing in the exact same area. They are very tender to the touch. The problem is exacerbated when conditions are rough, choppy, or when we wear bigger, fatter, and longer skis. Skiing two days in a row is almost impossible now. It feels like our bones/tendons/muscles are bruised in this exact same area.

I'm thinking that it has to be the boots. But, it also may be the liners? Maybe Intuition liners are great to make your foot and ankle comfortable, but, it seems as though this NEW problem has occurred. I've never had this issue and now I have it with the same boot/liner set up as my brother. He has the same issues. It's either the boots or the liner.

Thoughts?

Shane

[adam]

I had this same problem with intuitions. I didn't do anything about it though and it went away after about 10 days of skiing.

[ShaneSchmutz]

Adam,

Thanks. I'm on day 12 this year and the pain isn't going away. My brother skied an entire season last year with the boot/liner setup described above and his pain never went away either. Hmmm? I don't know what to do.

[regct]

1) Go see a GOOD bootfitter
2) Post in Tech Talk

[ShaneSchmutz]

REGCT: I have had two separate boot fitters (both good ones) and have had foot bets made, had my liners heat molded, and have had my shells heat molded (in both pairs). I didn't have the problem until these new boots with intuition liners. It's either the boots or the liners.

Thanks though.

[glademaster]

Intuition liners suck. They have to be one of the biggest scams in snowsports. They're expensive, wear out after 50 days, offer shitty snow feel/feedback and aren't that comfortable when you consider the loss of snow feel and performance that comes with using them. Like an Alzheimer's patient, I kept trying different models from them, thinking there had to be one that isn't total shit, but I was wrong, they're garbage across the board.

Try the boots with your footbeds and the liners from your old boots for a few days, that will at least let you know if it is the liner or the shell that's causing the issue. Conversely, try the Intushitons in your old shells for a few days and see how that goes.

[XXX-er]

well like thats just your opinion man

I been using intuition liners for >15 years the PW's always work for me, but the tongued Intuition liners didn't but no liner is going to fix the wrong shell or the wrong sized shell

[ShaneSchmutz]

Glademaster,

Thanks. What's funny is that when you first try on the Intuition Liners you are in heaven. You think that you've found the best liners in the world and that you're finally going to be comfortable. In fact, I liked them so much, I bought three pair (one for each of my boots).

I've skied the last three days in a row. Three days ago I skied my Tecnica Cochise with Intuition Liners. I felt fine but, I obviously strained my Fibularis Longus, the Fibularis Brevis, and the Flexor Hallucis Longus (at least one or a combo of the three - as this is where the pain is). Two days ago, I skied the same set up and could only do one run, my legs were killing me in the spot discussed. Yesterday, although sore to the touch, I skied my old boots (Solomons) for the first time with foot beds and Intuition liners (I had bought a pair of Intuition liners for them too). I skied 5 runs and my legs didn't hurt as bad (they were still bruised/sore from the previous two days in my Tecnica Cochise boots). They didn't hurt as bad, but, my Solomons have more flex in them and the snow was much softer and more forgiving yesterday. It's too early to tell if it's the boots or the liners.

Like you said, I need to try to ski my Tecnica Cochise boots with the liners that they came with (non-Intuition).

Have you heard of anyone else having problems with Intuition Liners?

Thanks,

Shane

[deft_funk]

Yeah man I have had similar problems with intuitions- crippling pain on the back outside of my leg (muscle/bone, not tendons though) that does not appear if I use stock liners. Skiing fast in choppy snow/getting knocked around in the boots a bit makes it worse for sure. I have fucked up feet though so intuitions solve a lot of other problems I have, still am trying to make them work but I have been to several fitters none of whom really seem to know what to do about it.

My old roommate had a very similar problem, wound up with a stress fracture after just pushing through the pain for weeks and ditched the boots/liners for sollys with stock liners and had no foot issues last season. Can't say for sure what exactly it was about those boots (cochise) and liners (intuitions), but that combo ruined his season.

[ShaneSchmutz]

Deft_Funk,

Thanks. That makes me feel better. I too thought that the pain was bone at first (it still may be). I have massaged and palpated the sore area and it seems to be muscle that is hurting (I thought it was bone). It may go into tendon as well, but, it sounds like we're hurting in the same area. It's the rear-side though, not the very rear (certainly not the Achilles tendon that hurts me). It's the Fibularis Longus/Brevis (if you google pictures of those, that's where I'm hurting).

Maybe the combo of the Cochise and Intuitions is a bad combo. Then again, maybe it's just the Intuition liners (unfortunately). Like you, I love the way the Intuitions feel on my feet. But, if they're causing pain in my legs, that's not good.

Thanks for your input,

Shane

[old goat]

Three thoughts. First--pull up your long underwear so the cuff is above the boot top. Don't laugh. Bunched up long underwear in the cuff of the boot will cause exactly the symptoms you're having. I recently cured the same problem by doing that. Second--at least for me, power wraps put me more in the backseat, because of the extra thickness in front. I fixed by using a small heel wedge on the boot board and a rear spoiler, which sticks well to the intuition. You, or more likely your unkind friends, should be able to tell if you're in the backseat. Obviously depends on the forward lean of your boots, ramp angle, etc, etc, etc. Three--POST IN TECH TALK YOU JONG.

[ShaneSchmutz]

Old Goat,

Thanks for the advice. I have a rear spoiler. A Heel lift might be helpful too. What you said about the extra material in the front makes sense. Thanks again.

Shane

[old goat]

Jerk off new guy I believe. Not just any new guy, but one who posts in the wrong forum.
If you have a rear spoiler you could try taking it out.

[XavierD]

Some times, your legs are just weak.

I have some serious leg pain the first few days of skiing every year. Then my legs harden the fuck up and I don't have no problems no more. I ski in Intuition PWs inside Cochise 120s (so same shell and liner as you). When my lower leg is skiing strong, I don't have any problems.

I think PWs ski great by the way. No, not as good as a foam injected liner, but I like my feet warm and comfortable.

If you don't know how to size them, or try and fit a bad fit with them, you will have a bad time. Otherwise they are the tits.

[ShaneSchmutz]

Thanks Xavier. Maybe I'm just weak. I don't think so though. On day 14 of skiing (in Vail now). We'll see. I've been experimenting with different set ups.

Shane

[ShaneSchmutz]

MY CONCLUSION:

After 20 ski days this year and seven days in a row of skiing and experimenting with different set ups I am fairly certain that the Intuition Power Wrap liners combined with the Cochise 120 Pro Light Shells cause pain in the lower leg area (Fibularis Longus, Soleus, Flexor Hallucis Longus, Fibularis Brevis, Peroneus Brevis). Additionally, I feel that the Intuition Power Wraps are too stiff and can cause some pain after a hard day of skiing with any shell.

Set ups I tried:
- Cochise 120 Pro Light Shell (3 Buckle) with Intuition Power Wrap Liner (most painful set up)
- Cochise 120 Pro Light Shell (3 Buckle) with stock liners (A little painful)
- Solomon 110 Impact CS (4 Buckle) with Intuition Power Wrap Liner (A little painful)
- Solomon 110 Impact CS (4 Buckle) with stock liner (Not painful at all).

Notes:
- I had two separate pairs of Intuition Power Wrap liners each heat molded to each of the two specific pairs of shells.
- For each pair of boots and liners I had custom molded foot beds.
- Flat light and hard snow conditions caused proper ski form to suffer and caused increased pain/symptoms.
- I tried each set up at least 2-3 times each.
- A 3 Buckle vs. 4 Buckle system may add to the issue of pain/symptoms (possibly).
- I feel that the Intuition Power Wrap liners are simply too stiff and cause the lower leg muscles to overwork (not flex) which can lead to pain/symptoms.
- A buddy of mine has the Dalbello 120 Panterra boot with the Intuition I.D. Liner and he is very comfortable (we compared these two liners and the I.D. liner is much softer and much less stiff then the Power Wrap liner).

CONCLUSION:
- The Cochise 120 Pro Light shells with Intuition Power Wrap liners is painful and I do not recommend them.
- I have a strong belief that the Intuition Pro Wrap liners are too stiff with any shell and may cause pain/symptoms.
- An alternative may be the Intuition I.D. liner that comes with the Dalbello 120 Panterra (made specifically for Dalbello by Intuiton - less stiff).


Hope this helps some people,

Shane

[beaterdit]

Hmm. Been skiing Intuition Power Wraps for 10+ years in everything from Tele boots to my current Lange RS 140s. I have tried a few other liners from high end stock liners to other models of Intuitions that I didn't like as well. I've found the Power Wrap to be the lightest, stiffest, highest performing, warmest, most comfortable liner out there. It has gotten considerably stiffer over the years.

You're certainly not alone in not liking them though.

[old goat]

MY CONCLUSION:


- The Cochise 120 Pro Light shells with Intuition Power Wrap liners is painful and I do not recommend them.
- I have a strong belief that the Intuition Pro Wrap liners are too stiff with any shell and may cause pain/symptoms.
- An alternative may be the Intuition I.D. liner that comes with the Dalbello 120 Panterra (made specifically for Dalbello by Intuiton - less stiff).


Hope this helps some people,

Shane

Highly unlikely that this will help anyone. What boots and liners work is highly personal and depends on 1) the foot and leg 2) the level of performance vs comfort the skier wants 3) the way the skier skis 4) the fit. What does or does not work for one skier is irrelevant to any one else. A recommendation on a specific feature may be useful--the classic What will fit my really skinny calves? for example. Broad recommendations like don't use this liner with this boot are worthless. And your statement that Pro Wraps or Pro Wraps are too stiff for any shell is ridiculous--as thousands of satisfied users will tell you. Your statement that 3 buckle boots with intuitions cause problems, based on your experience with one boot is obviously a gross overgeneralization. Obviously Intuitions wraps didn't work for you and Cochises didn't work for you. Glad you found what works for you. You don't have nearly the experience or knowledge to advise anyone else.

[XXX-er]

Intuitions don't work for you but its not a logical conclusian to say they are too stiff for everybody, I got PW's in my 3buckle tele boots, my 4 buckle overlap alpine boots and my 3 buckle AT boots, obviously they work or I wouldn't have bought them and I have literaly walked all day and all night in a powerwrap

https://intuitionliners.com/the-liners/powerwrap/

There are several flavors of wrap and you seem to be mixing up powerwrap with pro wrap ?

[WaistDeepGroomers]

Moved to Tech Talk, jong!

[Two06]

Sometimes it's not the boot or liner... it's your foot/leg that's the problem. I get tons of discomfort the first week of the season, even though my boots were fine the Spring before. Sounds like you strained a muscle or have tightness issues. Tissue quality is often overlooked! Tight muscles restrict bloodflow and cause all sorts of issues

[steved]

Tensing up some tendons, along with curling the tigertoes? Shouldn't be happenning...
Maybe just need time to relax & heal, then stop tensing anything and use muscle tone & relaxed joints instead of clawing and tightening...but it does sound like there's more rolling inside the boot than there should be..
Maybe wrong boot(shape) allowing movement thus gripping/tightening to keep control of boot = cold feet & often pain.
$.01

[old goat]

Tensing up some tendons, along with curling the tigertoes? Shouldn't be happenning...
Maybe just need time to relax & heal, then stop tensing anything and use muscle tone & relaxed joints instead of clawing and tightening...but it does sound like there's more rolling inside the boot than there should be..
Maybe wrong boot(shape) allowing movement thus gripping/tightening to keep control of boot = cold feet & often pain.
$.01

$.01. Is that your bill, doctor?

[Banh Mi]

lol isnt this a very common pain for skiers? Im sure a bad boot could make it worse, but doesnt it usually come from tension and strain when your leg muscles are weak, as Xavier said?..

I had this last year, same with my buddy. do some calf raises and heel raises, along with barbell squats and hamstring exercises once a week. That helped mine go away..

[Dshack89]

I've had similar lower leg pain in the past and know how much hard crud makes it hurt...feels like getting stabbed in the ankle on every bounce.

But, I've always been able to trace the root cause to skiing in the backseat. Usually it happens early season in heavy powder when my legs get tired - just like your situation. I just ice that part of my leg and take ibuprofen.

Maybe in your case it is the boot/liner combo, but it also might just be that you strained your Fibularis Brevis.