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  1. #1
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    Athletes or daredevils?

    Many of my friends debate the point of whether golf is a sport or game and whether golfers are athletes.


    After watching this years crop of ski flicks I am pondering similar questions about the pro skiers that star in these films. Are they athletes? Or are they merely daredevils who take ever greater risks to life and limb in order to entertain, perhaps even titillate, us, the movie viewers and consumers of the sponsors products.


    Are we, the stoke viewing public, a collective group of vicarious adrenaline addicts? We clamor for something ’new’, something ‘original’, a first descent, a ski BASE jump, and when that’s not enough a double back flip ski BASE. The entertainment, the excitement, the wow, and the whoaaaaa, line has to be pushed further and further out there. Until what? Until parents no longer want to introduce their kids to the sport, like we are seeing with football?


    I found Days Of My Youth to be a refreshing film. I loved he spirit of adventure, of play, especially the in bounds segment. When I first saw Cody slay that line at the end, I was like “H O L Y S H I T” that was the most insane thing I’ve ever seen. But now I wonder if I am part of the problem. How does someone one-up that? What do you think would happen if 10 (20? 100?) hotshots tried to ski that line that aggressively? heck, what if Cody skied it 100 times? What are the odds that someone would not be killed, or at least seriously injured?


    Last year I watched Mcconkey with my family, and my mother-in-law, a true casual observer and one who is not up on the latest haps in the ski obsessed subculture, and even she knew how the movie would end before it was over. There was only one ending written. Shane, an incredible talent and true visionary, seemed unable to envision the statistical certainty of taking such consequential risks so many times. It’s like hitting a hot craps table in Vegas. The shooter is on a roll and everyone is making money. As the streak gets longer, the excitement grows, the odds get pressed. The hard ways hit, the crowd shouts its appreciation. More money is thrown on the table as confidence grows. Shooter rolls snake eyes and someone gets paid 30 to 1. This table is can’t lose. This shooter is hot. The excitement emanating from the table is felt across the casino floor. The roller feeds off the excitement. He’s all in. And inevitably he rolls a 7. Out. . Only, when you crap out in Vegas you go back to you room, raid the minibar, and miserate about the money you lost. In the mountains, on a line of consequence, out is ones life.

    Thanks for letting me rant. The mountains are blue so I'm going to pop a top, slip Almost Ablaze in the DVD player, and soak in the stoke.

  2. #2
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    Shut your fucking pie hole, jong.

  3. #3
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    Athletes or daredevils?

    Yes they are athletes. Daredevil subjectively depends on the person that is judgings tolerance, skill level. My mom for instance considers anyone who skis being a daredevil.
    Last edited by Ski to Be; 12-21-2014 at 04:35 PM.
    License to kill gophers by the government of the United Nations

  4. #4
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    Exceptional top level athletes. Read Andreas Fransson's diaries for why such elite athletes undertake meticulously planned mountain challenges.

    Interesting read in this months issue of Powder which has eulogies to Auclair and Fransson, killed together in an avalanche. One common thread on both men was their being "present" in all aspects of their lives. Something you see in Eastern religious philosophy.

  5. #5
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    How long before red bull changes their logo to a blood smear?
    You are what you eat.
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    There's no such thing as bad snow, just shitty skiers.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by EaglesPDX View Post
    One common thread on both men was their being "present" in all aspects of their lives.
    Ironically, they aren't present in any aspect of their lives anymore...

    I'm not big on watching young adults risk life and limb for some free gear and bragging rights so I don't watch much ski porn, sorry TGR.

  7. #7
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    What about the hahnenkamm? What about Planica?

    I mean, the terms aren't mutually exclusive. A daredevil can also be an athlete or not. An athlete can also be a daredevil or not. My thinking is that there are numerous high level skiers who distinguish themselves from the rest of the field by their willingness to do something incredibly sketchy. There are lots of skiers who can shred great turns in the steeps but aren't willing to roll the dice on huge airs or dicey exposure...just like there are lots of skiers who can make a good clean arc in a GS course but aren't willing to roll the dice running downhill. They're all athletes but some are athletes and daredevils.

  8. #8
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    this isn't new, and it's not limited--by any means whatsoever--to the freeride/big mountain aspect of skiing.








  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtngirl79 View Post
    Ironically, they aren't present in any aspect of their lives anymore...
    “It’s better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing, than a long life spent in a miserable way.”
    Alan W. Watts

    And having chosen to do what is important do not worry about the duration.

    “The morning glory which blooms for an hour differs not at heart from the giant pine, which lives for a thousand years.”
    Alan W. Watts

    Because...

    “For unless one is able to live fully in the present, the future is a hoax. There is no point whatever in making plans for a future which you will never be able to enjoy. When your plans mature, you will still be living for some other future beyond. You will never, never be able to sit back with full contentment and say, "Now, I've arrived!" Your entire education has deprived you of this capacity because it was preparing you for the future, instead of showing you how to be alive now.”
    Alan W. Watts

  10. #10
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    This stuff is an addiction, the feeling of going really fast and flying is an addiction in the sense that people will suffer horrible consequences up to and including death and lifelong disability chasing that moving horizon. You go faster, bigger, faster, higher...the close calls get closer and closer, the whole thing gets gnarlier and gnarlier and eventually you either have to choose life--a life that will feel boring and empty without chasing your dragon--or you just keep chasing until you're eating hospital jello or filling a hole in the ground.

    That's our sport people. Yeah we love it, but it's a motherfucker sometimes.

  11. #11
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    ^ and if any of those guys had the choice to pick again those days they died I guarantee they would have picked staying home...

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtngirl79 View Post
    ^ and if any of those guys had the choice to pick again those days they died I guarantee they would have picked staying home...
    The times they were most alive was the times they were challenging themselves. They chose living over safety and they made their choice over and over again.

    You really need to read Andreas Frannson's diary to understand their motives.

    They knew exactly what they were doing and the risks involved.

    To this thread's topics, they were elite athletes to even be in a position to make the choices they did.

  13. #13
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    Yeah, well...I mean here I am in michigan watching TV and it's extremely hard to enjoy normal life the same way other people enjoy normal life when I spent years doing something sketchy almost every single day. It was skiing really hard, or riding motorcycles, or working with helicopters and falling trees. It was something every day....and now, nothing. It's the exact same way meth and ecstasy users do permanent damage to their brains by causing downregulation...it's pretty hard to get excited about football on TV when I spent those years playing with mortal danger...and the reality is that if you play with mortal danger long enough you're going to end up fucked up.

    So yeah, they'd rather have lived...surely they'd rather live...but life without pushing your limits is a different kind of life. It can be pretty flat, boring, and tedious.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by YetiMan View Post
    Yeah, well...I mean here I am in michigan watching TV. It can be pretty flat, boring, and tedious.
    It's your choice. They made other choices.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by EaglesPDX View Post
    It's your choice. They made other choices.
    oh yeah, believe me I understand. My hand was forced... I just meant to point out that it's not such a simple choice between being the guy who lives out there on the ragged edge and coming back home to be Mr. Normal for your kids and family. That choice doesn't really exist for a lot of people. After enough excitement (war, high level sports, dangerous work....whatever) the choice is really between being yourself doing the dangerous shit you do versus undertaking a forced lifestyle modification and being a very boring, depressed shell of yourself.

    I wish Robb Gaffney would post in this thread because I'm sure he has a unique perspective on this with his combination of background and education.
    Last edited by ill-advised strategy; 12-21-2014 at 05:49 PM. Reason: attempt to add clarity

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by YetiMan View Post
    That choice doesn't really exist for a lot of people.
    But if one is an elite athlete like Auclair and Frannson, one has that choice. To answer the original question, yes they were extraordinary athletes first and very likely their athleticism lead them to the choice to live fully in the present with the known risks.

  17. #17
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    I thought this show had a lot to say about facing the inevitable end to your glory days. And really that's what I'm saying, is that if you keep going you're going to meet some kind of an end, be it death, disability, or a difficult choice to live a boring depressing unexciting life. One way or the other, once you start that addiction cycle there is a price to pay someday. That's why former athletes kill themselves, you used to be awesome and do awesome things and now you've chosen to live and be safe but it's a lot less satisfying...and dealing with that becomes your way of life.

  18. #18
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    My issue isn't so much the choices people make for themselves for their own reasons...

    it's the fact that companies profit off kids "going big" and when it goes wrong who foots the bill? They aren't paid enough to justify the risk and that risk just keeps getting bigger and bigger. People aren't expendable no matter how much they enjoy, think they need or are addicted to adrenaline/high risk situations...

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by YetiMan View Post
    I thought this show had a lot to say about facing the inevitable end to your glory days. And really that's what I'm saying, is that if you keep going you're going to meet some kind of an end, be it death, disability, or a difficult choice to live a boring depressing unexciting life. One way or the other, once you start that addiction cycle there is a price to pay someday. That's why former athletes kill themselves, you used to be awesome and do awesome things and now
    It's not for some flaw in their character as you imply. You are not respecting their choices when you say they must die doing it and that it is an addiction. For athletes of their skill level, playing at their skill level is what creates the risks.

    And one doesn't have to be an extraordinary athlete to do something you love to do and to be present in life, all that Alan Watts stuff above.

    I like to think my thirty days a year skiing I get a taste of that.

    But back to the question, these guys are super athletes first and that is why what they do skiing is so risky.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by EaglesPDX View Post
    But if one is an elite athlete like Auclair and Frannson, one has that choice. To answer the original question, yes they were extraordinary athletes first and very likely their athleticism lead them to the choice to live fully in the present with the known risks.
    Holy shit dude. I'm not arguing with you, you're just misreading my posts.

    The choice to which I referred, or lack thereof, was the false choice often assumed by normal people with a normal perspective on life...the choice between doing the dangerous shit we love and just choosing not to and being normal. It's not like that for a large number of people who spend a lot of time doing dangerous shit they reach a point of no return where scaling the danger back means living a very boring and unfulfilling miserable life.

    Obviously the highest levels of skiing are occupied exclusively by elite athletes. That's not in dispute...maybe for the OP, but not for me. There have been situations (Paul Ruff, Terry Cook, John Tremann, Leo Brayman, maybe Jamie Pierre...maybe.. come to mind) where somebody is getting famous more on stunty daredevilish stuff than on elite level skiing. But mostly if you're in the ski media it's because you're a great skier.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by EaglesPDX View Post
    It's not for some flaw in their character as you imply. You are not respecting their choices when you say they must die doing it and that it is an addiction. For athletes of their skill level, playing at their skill level is what creates the risks.
    It is a character flaw! Once you're beyond a certain level of risk tolerance and excitement threshold you've physiologically reworked your brain to require significant danger to feel excitement, and reworked your brain to require excitement to feel a sense of fulfillment. That's a cycle that often ends very poorly for people. Not always, but frequently. We've seen a lot of evidence of that recently with people dying, but the other side is rarely discussed: the whole process of facing a huge psychosocial rework of your sense of self and your lifestyle in order to scale back the risks....or in response to diminished capability because of an accumulation of injuries.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by YetiMan View Post
    This stuff is an addiction, the feeling of going really fast and flying is an addiction in the sense that people will suffer horrible consequences up to and including death and lifelong disability chasing that moving horizon. You go faster, bigger, faster, higher...the close calls get closer and closer, the whole thing gets gnarlier and gnarlier and eventually you either have to choose life--a life that will feel boring and empty without chasing your dragon--or you just keep chasing until you're eating hospital jello or filling a hole in the ground.

    That's our sport people. Yeah we love it, but it's a motherfucker sometimes.
    I agree with you, Yeti, but what I've found as I'm aging and have kids, etc. is that my dragon is shrinking as time goes by. I no longer need to scare the fuck out of myself to have fun skiing, motorcycling, or playing in the waves. Doesn't mean I'm gonna hang it all up either, tho.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by EaglesPDX View Post
    It's not for some flaw in their character as you imply. You are not respecting their choices when you say they must die doing it and that it is an addiction. .
    Bullshit. Needing to go do some sketchy thing that's probably going to kill or maim you because you feel hollow and depressed without it....that's a state of addiction. And it makes sense, after all it's the same batch of chemicals and sensations you access with various drugs.

    Respect their choices? They had limited choices, keep living a life full of sketchy shit that was bound to fuck them up or cut it out, get a real job, and spend your time bored shitless arguing with some shitdick on the internet about which Alan Watts quote makes the best marching orders to your avalanche death and how everyone is supposed to feel about that. What does respect look like in this circumstance? Should I say it's unfortunate they're dead but good they spent their life chasing their dreams instead of wasting it in some factory? I don't know broseph, sometimes it seems like people are so butthurt about all the death that you can't really say anything without touching a nerve on somebody. I want what we all want: I want all of us to have HUGE SHIT EATING GRINS every day doing all our crazy stupid shit we love and for none of us to ever die or face a serious injury from it...but as I get older that just seems retarded and naive...so I just accept the deaths and disabilities as part of our addiction to danger.

  24. #24
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    Are bowlers athletes or just daredevils? I mean,
    those fancy shoes CAN get slippery!!
    "The reason death sticks so closely to life isn't biological necessity - it's envy. Life is so beautiful that death has fallen in love with it; a jealous, possesive love that grabs at what it can." by Yann Martel from Life of Pi



    Posted by DJSapp:
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  25. #25
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    Is a really good bowler any less of an athlete than an nfl kicker or a 1 inning left handed relief pitcher?

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