Is it our doom, the past repeating? - NYT on skinning

[Boreas]

I'll have to disagree with you on this one Dave. For years land managers, the State, and Nat'l Forest have turned a blind eye to glad trimming, something akin to the don't ask don't tell policy. IMO, at the drop of a hat this could all change and they could begin actively begin pursuing people such as your self. IMO, it's probably best to have an organization out there already started with in roads in case this does happen, after all nearly every sport known to man has some sort of agency or organization built to watch out for the interests of their user group.

In regards to these alliances as promotional pieces, I can't disagree. I, like you (I presume) do not want this to become a pay to play activity but at this time I've also heard no mention of this. I've yet to see the CTA, GMC, VTBCA, or RASTA propose this as an idea. Worst case scenario at this point would be state parks requiring an annual parks pass to use their plowed lots(like they do in summer for their facilities). And if pay to play does happen, like you've previously stated there's enough terrain out there to ski for free..


As to your history lesson on VT glades. Did it ever occur to you that the reduction in trail maintenance coincided with the rise of ski lifts and the consolidation of ski areas. It wasn't because they felt the need to preserve, it was a change in user base and ski oriented goals. Look at it this way, you spend every morning getting up at 4:30 to milk the cows and clean stalls in 1950 what sounds more pleasant hiking for a few laps or riding a tbar for 20? My grandfather grew up skiing at Underhill and Stowe with people like Gardiner, Merrill, and Lord even spent some time cutting with them, he stopped skiing because the time commitment was to much for farm and family. I remember him telling me that he stopped regularly skiing in Underhill because of Stowes chairlift it offered more variety and a longer run.

[chatton18]

Don't worry guys, WSJ is getting in on this too - Uphill Skiing Explained

http://www.wsj.com/articles/uphill-s...ned-1418844419

SKIERS MAY HAVE ACCESS to zippier chairlifts and more heli-skiing operations than ever, but a growing number are taking a DIY approach to ascending the slopes. It may sound counterintuitive or flat-out crazy, but traveling uphill on your skis—known as “alpine touring,” “backcountry skiing” or just “skinning”—is liberating and, rather inconceivably, fun. So much so that it’s the sport’s fastest-growing segment, according to the Snowsports Industries of America.

[robrox]

Maybe it's just the skier interwebz regulars kids touring. Then again, maybe not. Johnny and Diggity have been teaching Sugarkidz about ski mountaineering for a number of years...is it nearly 10 now? Their parents are plunking down good money for the program and the gear the kids need.

There is also Grant's group, going for even longer...at least it seems that way...scores of kids freeheeling all over the Shire.

Are the papers just waking up to fait accomplis?

[JerseyDave]

eh....nevermind.

[looseofforangejuice]

eh....nevermind.

i thought Sugarbush was on state/federal forest land? if so how can they ban people going uphill? i thought that was the reason Stowe/Smuggs allowed it?

EDIT: So Sugarbush didn't ban uphill travel? Your post changed as I was quoting it

[JerseyDave]

i thought Sugarbush was on state/federal forest land? if so how can they ban people going uphill? i thought that was the reason Stowe/Smuggs allowed it?

EDIT: So Sugarbush didn't ban uphill travel? Your post changed as I was quoting it

Rumor. They recently put forth an official policy.....limting skinning to night time, on certain trails, ect. ect.
"Change to hiking and skinning policy: Hiking or skinning on designated trails at both Lincoln Peak and Mount Ellen is not permitted before the mountains open for the winter season, nor is hiking or skinning permitted during the operating hours of the resort.

Hiking or skinning is permitted once the mountains are open, before and after operating hours at both mountains, with the following provisions:


At Lincoln Peak
•between the hours of 5 PM to 10PM on the following trail: Easy Rider to Lower Pushover to Pushover to Birch Run.
•between the hours of 4AM to 7 AM on the following trails: Racer’s Edge to Lower Snowball to Snowball to the top of the Valley House Chair.
•Due to plowing, parking for hiking and skinning is provided at Lincoln Peak in the heli lot, to the right of The Schoolhouse.

At Mount Ellen
•between the hours of 5 PM to 10PM and 4AM to 7AM on the following trails: Easy Does It to Straight Shot to Cruiser to Lower Rim Run to Rim Run.
•Due to plowing, parking for hiking and skinning is provided at Mt. Ellen in the lot next to the Sunny Double lift

There will be times when skinning and hiking is closed due to weather conditions. Please check the Sugarbush snow report before proceeding.

Hiking and Skinning during operating hours may be authorized under special circumstances (i.e. lift mechanical failure or weather hold, or special events) Hiking or skinning during operating hours on designated trails requires a day ticket or season pass and is only permitted when specifically authorized by the Resort (these routes are only open when the weather and conditions permit). Please call Guest Services at 802-583-6590 for current designated route.

Hikers and skinners must adhere to the following rules:
•Mountain operations take place AT ALL TIMES. This includes grooming, snowmaking, transportation of materials and personnel, and other activities. STAY AWAY from all resort operations and machinery.
•Hikers/Skinners must hold a valid “Uphill Travel Pass” available at no cost at the Guest Services desk at Lincoln Peak.
•Hike and skin in a single-file line, on the side of the trail.
•Hike and skin on designated trail going up, and ski or ride on same trail going down.
•Dogs are not allowed.
•Be aware that there are numerous inherent risks associated with skinning and hiking at the resort.
•While our lifts may not be running, our mountain is still operating. This includes snowmobiles, grooming machines, snowmaking equipment, winch cats and more.
•Winching involves a grooming machine hooked up to a long cable under a tremendous amount of force. Our operators will utilize beacon lights when performing this extremely hazardous activity. NEVER GO NEAR A WINCH CAT.
•Overnight stays on the mountain are prohibited.
•Do not hike or skin on a closed trail.
•All Terrain Parks & Park Features are off-limits.
•Tubing and/or sledding of any kind is prohibited at all times.
- See more at: http://www.sugarbush.com/snow-trails-conditions/winter-trail-use-policy#sthash.o8eCrM66.dpuf"

Feel the Love.
http://www.sugarbush.com/images/skia...p1314large.jpg
Basically they allow you to skin and take runs down beginner groomers....in darkness. Hilarious, but I guess an improvement as before it was just trespassing. I see a loo[p hole...I guess we can ski closed trails....

Sugarbush leases Federal land and owns a lot of North. The Federal Land Lease gives them considerably more control over access then state lands. From my research on state land leases, the lease can not prohibit access to land, the lease if for facilities I.E. lifts, lodges, ect. Mike Scnieder on the VT Edition piece about the VTBCAuthority was misleading on this and indicated the resorts can prohibit uphill traffic. As I read the lease agreement, this is not true....for State land.

[looseofforangejuice]

^^^ good to know, thanks

[Vt-Freeheel]

Make sure your light is charged.

[mtnbikerskierchick]

This article is just kind of confusing. "Skinning" at the resort is being confused with actual backcountry skiing.

And I really wish people would stop calling "skinning" "ski mountaineering" (2nd paragraph). It drives me nuts. If you aren't in need of crampons or ice axes or at the very least some bootpacking (because it's too steep or too firm to skin), it's just not ski mountaineering IMHO. I mean, can someone tell me where the "mountaineering" is if you're just skinning up a resort run? Anyone else feel the same?

[LightRanger]

Anyone else feel the same?

Yep.

[robrox]

Fair points...I'm sure others would agree.

Then again, the newby wrote the thing so what newspaper editor in the Big Apple would know how to use that blue pencil for such a topic?

Better call S'bush (http://www.sugarbush.com/ski-ride-sc...i-mountaineers)..but they do get off piste and often yo-yo in the gnar w/o lift support for the session

[mtnbikerskierchick]

^^ Does "ski mountaineering" as it really should be actually exist on the East Coast on any place other than Mt. Washington?

[Vt-Freeheel]

There's a bit in Maine. Also some in the Adirondacks of NY and possibly in the Gaspe' peninsula.

Maine

[JerseyDave]

^^ Does "ski mountaineering" as it really should be actually exist on the East Coast on any place other than Mt. Washington?

Other spot in NH, as well as Smugglers notch. If you were so inclined to find some routes that include ice and rope work there are actually a lot of places for that kind of thing. Not on a big scale, but you could certain train for bigger mtns easily in VT, NY, NH and Maine. For sure the effort in Vt is aiming at bringing beginners and resort centric folks new to skiing away from lifts out into the bc. Trying to cash in on "the fastest growing segment of the industry". 'Cause there were like 15 folks touring around here 10 years ago, now there's like 50 so that's a 300 percent increase! Think I'll open a guide service, blow it up and retire in a few years.

[robrox]

Stout work can be had off the peaks from The Twins, Garfield, Lafayette, Lincoln, Liberty and Flume. The Little River headwater cirque Slides are rarely done, but a compact expedition could pull a couple in a day and take over a week to nail them all. The rest of the Prezzies offer a lot in case Geoge is holding out. Crawford Notch offers stout opportunities when conditions are right. Oscelola has a couple items and Cannon has one notable, but perilous cliff descent with only two descents (done in one go by two skiers).

Just a partial list....I've seen a few things up in the Charlevoix. Newfie and Labrador come to mind. Baffin is East.... and is too stout for my bucket list.

[Boreas]

Not to beat you up DaveVt, but smuggs is not ski mountaineering. Shit man you really need to travel.
Easy gully is probably the longest pure steep continuous ski line and it's perhaps three twenty foot sections of 50 degrees connected by another maybe 200ft of 35 degree snow. In a good year you can easily walk all of it but the top 15 feet sans crampons. The only reason it doesn't get skied frequently is due to prevailing up drafts blowing the snow away.

Jeff slide would be longer but it's far more mellow, all of the steeps coming from short cliff bands and one 230 foot icefall at the very bottom.

Cass gully is never skied but the fan, again due to up drafts and it's final chimney and chock stone.

hidden has nice snow fields but it would be 3 raps, to start, 80 feet of snow, short rap, 100 feet of skiing, full rap, and then mellow gully/ gladeskiing. Can you say contrived, 4 200 ft raps for 180 feet of skiing.

Blue ice gully, blue ice bulge 50 feet of 40/45degrees the rest 35 degree skiing

Bore/tusk 40 degrees max and only 400 feet long in terms of actually in the gully skiing.

And oh yeah not one of the aforementioned "lines" come close to the alpine zone of mansfield. So yes you can ice climb with skis on your back but that is not mountaineering, but it does have decent albeit short skiing.

Ten years ago it was rare to see skiers on the short gully's in the notch, but Bore, Tusk, bday bowls, broken leg, no Queebs, Queebs,hourglass, Jeff, thunder, hell brook, easy, bear pond, LT, and whatever the young kids are calling them these days were all skied heavily by more than 15 people when the snow warranted it.

[Alaskan Rover]

Recently heard at the bar by a mid 60's lawyer type who looked like hes never left the city. "I got this pair of AT - 'all terrain' - bindings from Cindy, they let you move your heel up and down and then you put this sticky thing on the bottom of the ski that allows you to go up hill. So now I never have to ride the lift!"

The end is near.

I laughed!!!

I don't think we have to worry about flocks of weekend warriors clogging up the BC, though. I'm much more worried about ever farther ranging snowmachines disturbing the solitude of the federal lands. The thing is the new BCers will soon tire and go back to the liftlines...the snowmachiners, however, consider their snowmachines an extension of their big four-door pickups, and will never tire...as the next basin is just a few twists of the throttle away. Spend a day in Hatcher or Turnagain to know what I mean.

[Lone Star]

I think it's only "ski mountaineering" if you begin your descent with part of your skis on the true summit. Other than that, whatever Lou Dawson says it is.

[JerseyDave]

Not to beat you up DaveVt, but smuggs is not ski mountaineering. Shit man you really need to travel.
Easy gully is probably the longest pure steep continuous ski line and it's perhaps three twenty foot sections of 50 degrees connected by another maybe 200ft of 35 degree snow. In a good year you can easily walk all of it but the top 15 feet sans crampons. The only reason it doesn't get skied frequently is due to prevailing up drafts blowing the snow away.

Jeff slide would be longer but it's far more mellow, all of the steeps coming from short cliff bands and one 230 foot icefall at the very bottom.

Cass gully is never skied but the fan, again due to up drafts and it's final chimney and chock stone.

hidden has nice snow fields but it would be 3 raps, to start, 80 feet of snow, short rap, 100 feet of skiing, full rap, and then mellow gully/ gladeskiing. Can you say contrived, 4 200 ft raps for 180 feet of skiing.

Blue ice gully, blue ice bulge 50 feet of 40/45degrees the rest 35 degree skiing

Bore/tusk 40 degrees max and only 400 feet long in terms of actually in the gully skiing.

And oh yeah not one of the aforementioned "lines" come close to the alpine zone of mansfield. So yes you can ice climb with skis on your back but that is not mountaineering, but it does have decent albeit short skiing.

Ten years ago it was rare to see skiers on the short gully's in the notch, but Bore, Tusk, bday bowls, broken leg, no Queebs, Queebs,hourglass, Jeff, thunder, hell brook, easy, bear pond, LT, and whatever the young kids are calling them these days were all skied heavily by more than 15 people when the snow warranted it.

Practice, exactly what I said. There's a lot more to do then ski around here. Instead of travel, I just diversify my activities...I love when people tell me what I NEED to do.

[Boreas]

I think it's only "ski mountaineering" if you begin your descent with part of your skis on the true summit. Other than that, whatever Lou Dawson says it is.

My definition would be if it's considered a non technical hike in the summer, it's not mountaineering just because there's snow on the ground.

[abraham]

I suspect it's used in those rules to refer to the racers. Aren't there skimo world championships?

[CarveMan]

Lift line jongs clicked into their AT bindings trying to look core. I'm not worried. They never fucking use them.

This.

I sell a bunch of AT bindings. I always wonder what % of them gets used in anger. Gotta be less than 50%

[mtnbikerskierchick]

I suspect it's used in those rules to refer to the racers. Aren't there skimo world championships?

I do not think that all skimo races actually involve what I call "mountaineering". However, some skimo races are really legit. The one we have here in Crested Butte has the racers climbing Guides Ridge which is class 5 and scary in the summer without a rope. They set up a fixed rope for the race though. It's pretty sweet.