Police Behaving Badly

[Dantheman]

There was also a study like 20 years ago that put a bunch of college kids in the roles of jailors and prisoners. Even stand up kids were found to eventually abuse the power. There is a certain mind fucking that goes on when you have no repercussions. I don't know how you get around it when juries, aka not cops, give them the benefit of the doubt.

I assume you're referring to the Stanford Prison Experiment. It turns out that it was all bullshit: https://medium.com/s/trustissues/the...e-d869212b1f62

[digitaldeath]

Why do police in America act like this ?

I know there are mags on TGR who are cops, why do the police constantly cover up for other police ? This incident is basically a criminal conspiracy, out of control cop escalates the situation, police chief arrests him after he later complains, prosecutor presses charges knowing full well both incidents are on video and the citizen is innocent. WTF ?

Cop = criminal.

Police Chief = criminal.

Prosecutor = criminal.

Wow that cop has a death wish

[AdironRider]

I assume you're referring to the Stanford Prison Experiment. It turns out that it was all bullshit: https://medium.com/s/trustissues/the...e-d869212b1f62

Look at any unchecked power scenario from private business to govt, and the "lie" he argues above is proven true time and time again. This medium post (I know I look to medium as the arbiter of facts and truth....) is more about the author's disdain for the doctor getting his cousin off for armed robbery than anything else.

[Dantheman]

Look at any unchecked power scenario from private business to govt, and the "lie" he argues above is proven true time and time again.

That's why we need to stop citing the SPE as proof of the phenomenon. There's no need to rely on bullshit when actual evidence exists.

This medium post (I know I look to medium as the arbiter of facts and truth....) is more about the author's disdain for the doctor getting his cousin off for armed robbery than anything else.

He pretty thoroughly covers the decades of SPE criticism in the field of psychology that has failed to make it into popular media, including a replication study that failed to reproduce the results. Also, he makes a pretty compelling argument that it played a non-insignificant part in fueling the policies and ideological divide that led to our current mass incarceration state.

[AdironRider]

Dude it is literally a promotion of his book, on the topic of his brother's armed robbery. This is more of a hit piece than anything IMO.

The author even explicitly states that peer reviewed scholars continue to utilize the study in college courses. This is just one man's opinion, and frankly, pretty damn biased.

Let alone his PHD is in computer science, and his masters was in fiction writing. Sounds like he's great at both of those, but like Ben Carson now thinks he can take on all academic fields.

[summit]

I assume you're referring to the Stanford Prison Experiment. It turns out that it was all bullshit: https://medium.com/s/trustissues/the...e-d869212b1f62

No, it isn't.

Ethically questionable? YES
Design issues? Yes
Only one interpretation of results? No
Bullshit? NO

I believe that what the experiment says is that if you give power with poor oversight and leadership... over people not used to (or accepting of) being controlled, then it takes little negative influence to see toxic and abuse relationships develop, even if from a few on either side. Many nominally in control will remain passive or participate in the face of abuse and those under control will accede to and participate in abuse under the direction of authority.

This is VERY difficult to experiment with, especially in the modern day with IRBs that would never allow anything resembling Zimbardo/Stanford/71 or Milgram/Yale/65. But history is certainly replete with real world case studies.

The author of the Medium article is very one sided, plus I never saw an interpretation as Cullen states that the study implied that prisons and prisoners were unreformable!

[digitaldeath]

I am not happy about this. seems this is a new standard training.

they just fucking murder people.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/u...uestioned.html

[Dantheman]

No, it isn't.

Ethically questionable? YES
Design issues? Yes
Only one interpretation of results? No
Bullshit? NO

I believe that what the experiment says is that if you give power to with poor oversight and leadership to a group... over people not used to (or accepting of) being controlled, then it takes little negative influence a toxic and abuse relationships to develop, even if from a few on either side. Many nominally in control will remain passive in the face of abuse and those under control will accede to and participate in abuse under the direction of authority.

This is VERY difficult to experiment with, especially in the modern day with IRBs that would never allow anything resembling Zimbardo/Stanford/71 or Milgram/Yale/65. But history is certainly replete with real world case studies.

The author of the Medium article is very one sided, plus I never saw an interpretation as Cullen states that the study implied that prisons and prisoners were unreformable!

Let's ignore the author's interpretive comments for the moment. You have study participants on record who admit they were faking it, you have the experiment's lead consultant on record saying that Zimbardo has grossly misstated the facts of how the experiment was conducted and calls it a "theatrical exercise" rather than an experiment, you have major contradictions between Zimbardos statements and transcripts and documents from the experiment, the experiment's results were never published in an academic journal, a replication study that was published in an academic journal did not reproduce the results (and Zimbardo fought to suppress the results), and you have other prominent psychologists saying that the experiment's results are contrary to Zimbardo's claims. In any other context that would be grounds to apply the "bullshit" label.

Like you said, and I also acknowledged, there is real evidence for the phenomenon of institutions corrupting people. What is bullshit about the SPE is the idea that it is sooo easy for this to happen that it will inevitably happen everywhere, even in a fake prison full of lily white college kids.

[summit]

You have study participants on record who admit they were faking it,

You have a study participant who had a "mental breakdown" (maybe) whose story has changed over the years and who has ulterior motives (like not being perceived as mentally "weak").

you have the experiment's lead consultant on record saying that Zimbardo has grossly misstated the facts of how the experiment was conducted, and calls it a "theatrical exercise" rather than an experiment

You mean the guy who served 17 years for attempted murder who 35 years after the study made some unconfirmed accusations in an oped while possibly having his own ulterior motives? If his accusations were true, he was a source of ideas for cruelty that trickled through the participants and gave them ideas.

you have major contradictions between Zimbardos statements and transcripts and documents from the experiment, the experiment's results were never published in an academic journal

Contradictions that certainly limit implications and conclusions, but don't invalidate the entire study. For example, blurring his role as researcher and warden then suggesting harsh treatment might invalidate a conclusion of spontaneous cruelty, but it certainly validates Milgram's work and leaves an interpretation that such a set of conditions will promogulate great cruelty with small inputs.

a replication study that was published in an academic journal did not reproduce the results (and Zimbardo fought to suppress the results), and you have other prominent psychologists saying that the experiment's results are contrary to Zimbardo's claims.

You have one study conducted drastically differently with different design that had different results... OK... in theory it was meant to build or question the SPE. Here's a good analysis. let's look at Zimbardo's criticisms: the 2002 experiment by Reicher and Hanslem was done with the participants having signed off that the videos taken throughout the experiment would be broadcast on the BBC! That makes the accusation of "theatrical" was leveled at Zimbardo comical in comparison! Further, as Zimbardo pointed out in his criticism, his experimental outcomes resembles real world case studeis while Reicher and Hanslem's work resembles... well... I can't think of a good comparison. I can think of structures where groups of prisoners dominated other groups of prisoners, but not where the prisoners dominated the guards, then they decided to live together. So which study is BS? Or are both a product of their flawed design with one being closer to the real world? I tend to think the latter.

We should be skeptical and critical of not just Zimbardo's work, but also the validity and reliable of criticisms against it as well as the reliability of memory after 47 years.

I stand by the idea that Zimbardo's 1971 study was ethically flawed, but that the methodological flaws, though glaring, only limit the implications. It doesn't make the study BS.

[old goat]

I can only imagine myself in that study--whichever side I was on I would be acting. Regardless of whether the guards were told how to act or figured it out on their own--all the participants knew that in the end no guard was going to be shanked and no prisoner put in a cell with someone who was going to rape them to curry favor with the guards. All the participants knew that at the end they would all still be Stanford students, with all that implies. The absence of real fear makes all the difference. Now if you really want to study what happens to people given power arbitrarily, study your average HOA.

[summit]

I can only imagine myself in that study--whichever side I was on I would be acting. Regardless of whether the guards were told how to act or figured it out on their own--all the participants knew that in the end no guard was going to be shanked and no prisoner put in a cell with someone who was going to rape them to curry favor with the guards. All the participants knew that at the end they would all still be Stanford students, with all that implies. The absence of real fear makes all the difference. Now if you really want to study what happens to people given power arbitrarily, study your average HOA.

A theory being examined by those experiments was that a social role or group identity creates certain behaviors regardless of personality rather than a certain personality with attached behaviors being drawn to a role (as with your average HOA, or perhaps, with real prisoners and guards).

[TBS]

Now if you really want to study what happens to people given power arbitrarily, study your average HOA.

<Beer shoots out nose>

[jono]

A theory being examined by those experiments was that a social role or group identity creates certain behaviors regardless of personality rather than a certain personality with attached behaviors being drawn to a role (as with your average HOA, or perhaps, with real prisoners and guards).

Selection bias was different, not absent. You still get personalities being drawn to the study and randomization of roles just changes what it was they were attracted to. "SJW's needed" certainly seemed implied.

And what about the Warden? He claimed to have initiated a lot, too.

[old goat]

A theory being examined by those experiments was that a social role or group identity creates certain behaviors regardless of personality rather than a certain personality with attached behaviors being drawn to a role (as with your average HOA, or perhaps, with real prisoners and guards).

Or police.

<Beer shoots out nose>

That's against the HOA rules. You're fined.

[summit]

^yep them too

Selection bias was different, not absent. You still get personalities being drawn to the study and randomization of roles just changes what it was they were attracted to. "SJW's needed" certainly seemed implied.

And what about the Warden? He claimed to have initiated a lot, too.

Good points all around

[Dantheman]

We should be skeptical and critical of not just Zimbardo's work, but also the validity and reliable of criticisms against it as well as the reliability of memory after 47 years.

I stand by the idea that Zimbardo's 1971 study was ethically flawed, but that the methodological flaws, though glaring, only limit the implications. It doesn't make the study BS.

Fair enough. But, the way Zimbardo tells it and the SPE is portrayed in popular media, sadistic behavior was pervasive among the guards and it all arose organically purely from the prisoner-guard dynamic. Whereas, the reality is that the wording of Zimbardo's ad invited selection bias and Zimbardo actively escalated the situation before the experiment even began, and despite that most of the guards still did not treat the prisoners cruelly.

[old goat]

The cops get another one--shot in the back as he ran from the police, unarmed.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.d2124bdcde16

[jono]

w t f

Departments need to be incentivized to cut this shit out

Licensure. Should only take, what, two generations?

[old goat]

Licensure. Should only take, what, two generations?

They are licensed. 00 license.

[old goat]

There is a common theme in two recent Sacramento area police shootings of unarmed black men, this one--
http://digital.olivesoftware.com/Oli...24C5&mode=text
and Stephon Clark:
The DA --recently reelected--not managing to complete her investigation of the shootings, in the case of McIntyre for over a year. There is no announcement of any charges against the officers or any disciplinary action until the investigation is complete, which never happens. Sacramento area cops know they have a free pass--that whatever they do will be swept under the rug.
Oh, and the other common theme--both shot in the back.
Increasingly, the rule of law does not apply in this country and when enough people realize that, there will be hell to pay for all of us.

[digitaldeath]

cant wait to have my face stomped by some goon cop

[FLS]

Increasingly, the rule of law does not apply in this country and when enough people realize that, there will be hell to pay for all of us.

Two tiered just-us system. The Protected class (Political "elites" and the wealthy) and their enforcers, who keep the plebs in check through brutality and mass incarceration. Trickle up economics.

[mcski]

Prison industrial complex is now a thing and it's only gonna get worse to feed that machine. At least the m.i.c was primarily problems for foreign countries.

I like that "just-us" play. Spot on

[frorider]

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/e...-on-themselves

Toronto cops steal edibles, eat a bunch, freak out and call 911.

To Protect and Serve eh.

[babybear]

^haha what dumbasses

yesterday i was at a 4 way stop light and while the light is still red the cop (1st in line at the light) just starts driving through the intersection and almost smashes into a car turning from one of the other sides (who had a green light)
The cop then throws his lights on for like 10 seconds then flicked them off and carried on, which I took as a “I meant to do that”
I see cops all the time that are looking down at their laptops next to them while they are driving too. wtf