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  1. #3326
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    Quote Originally Posted by JongDoe View Post
    Yes, but you are assuming that these cops are veterans with PTSD. Any data to support that?
    Only data I've seen is that roughly 20% of active police are vets. I'm of the "opinion" that everyone who sees real combat suffers from PTSD to some degree. It's only human to be at least somewhat traumatized by horrific experiences. Odds are at least one or two of those what 8 cops, is a vet with obvious issues. I don't care what kind of training they had or didn't have. Only someone seriously mentally fucked up treats people like that.

    Not walking that back... Out for now though.. Nothing more to add..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  2. #3327
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    Police Behaving Badly

    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Only data I've seen is that roughly 20% of active police are vets. I'm of the "opinion" that everyone who sees real combat suffers from PTSD to some degree. It's only human to be at least somewhat traumatized by horrific experiences. Odds are at least one or two of those what 8 cops, is a vet with obvious issues. I don't care what kind of training they had or didn't have. Only someone seriously mentally fucked up treats people like that.

    Not walking that back... Out for now though.. Nothing more to add..
    Just because they are veterans on the police force doesn’t mean they participated in combat with the enemy , over 80% of the jobs are support for combat arms. The Air National Guardsman in the article is prime example plus there is no mention of what he had done on the job as a police officer in Newark NJ prior to going to Iraq. I suspect he had issues prior with PTSD like many first responders
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  3. #3328
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    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Only data I've seen is that roughly 20% of active police are vets. I'm of the "opinion" that everyone who sees real combat suffers from PTSD to some degree. It's only human to be at least somewhat traumatized by horrific experiences. Odds are at least one or two of those what 8 cops, is a vet with obvious issues. I don't care what kind of training they had or didn't have. Only someone seriously mentally fucked up treats people like that.

    Not walking that back... Out for now though.. Nothing more to add..
    Your conclusions are seriously flawed. You make the statement that a large cause of these police cases are because of the influx of vets with PTSD. Then you say odds are that at least 1 or 2 of the 10 or 11 in the video are vets. What about the other 8? Plenty of f'd up people out there besides those that have seen horrific things.

  4. #3329
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    Cops as racists and as instruments of repression is hardly new. Most violence by cops against black people was ignored by the general public. It finally started gaining attention in the 50's and 60's but then it was viewed by most non-Southern whites as a Southern problem. Meanwhile cops in Chicago and Detroit and Boston were shooting black people with impunity (during the Detroit riot of 1967 black people lying on the floors of their apartments trying to hide were shot through the brick walls by M60 machine guns). Cops were also used as strike breakers during the labor movement and then there's the famous Chicago police riot of 1968. What is new today is that the unjustified killing of black people by cops is finally getting some attention.

  5. #3330
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    OG, That's a good reminder

  6. #3331
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    And let us not forget why the Black Panther Party was formed - to monitor and intercede for victims of police brutality in Oakland. Panthers open-carried in compliance with their 2nd Amendment rights, to protect themselves from oppressive police tactics. Lot of shootouts between Panthers and police, as the cops didn’t like Panthers all up in their shit. Mulford Act passed to strip Panthers of their gun rights and to outlaw carrying loaded firearms - Reagan signed it into law.
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  7. #3332
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  8. #3333
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBS View Post
    And let us not forget why the Black Panther Party was formed - to monitor and intercede for victims of police brutality in Oakland. Panthers open-carried in compliance with their 2nd Amendment rights, to protect themselves from oppressive police tactics. Lot of shootouts between Panthers and police, as the cops didn’t like Panthers all up in their shit. Mulford Act passed to strip Panthers of their gun rights and to outlaw carrying loaded firearms - Reagan signed it into law.
    And where was the NRA then? Same place they were when they started denying gun licenses to legal pot smokers. The 2nd Amendment is only for right wing white people.

  9. #3334
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    The 2nd Amendment is only for right wing white people.
    Quoted for emphasis

    https://www.theroot.com/maybe-there-are-no-good-cops-1790856860/amp

  10. #3335
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    Quote Originally Posted by JongDoe View Post
    Your conclusions are seriously flawed. You make the statement that a large cause of these police cases are because of the influx of vets with PTSD. Then you say odds are that at least 1 or 2 of the 10 or 11 in the video are vets. What about the other 8? Plenty of f'd up people out there besides those that have seen horrific things.
    Not every cop shoots and kills unarmed brown people. There's the fucked up cops and there's the cops who protect and refuse to testify against the fucked up people..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  11. #3336
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    Way to go Denver douche bags for harassing a pilot.
    make every day count

  12. #3337
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    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Not every cop shoots and kills unarmed brown people. There's the fucked up cops and there's the cops who protect and refuse to testify against the fucked up people..
    Your post quotes my response, which refers to vets with PTSD being a major cause of police brutality. Your post doesn't address my statement. Were you rebutting me?

  13. #3338
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    Quote Originally Posted by JongDoe View Post
    Your post quotes my response, which refers to vets with PTSD being a major cause of police brutality. Your post doesn't address my statement. Were you rebutting me?
    My post is a direct response to the question you ask..

    What about the other 8? Plenty of f'd up people out there besides those that have seen horrific things.
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  14. #3339
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    I was ready to drop this but since Jong wants to keep digging there's s little more data here. Again, it's a pretty common hypothesis that putting ex soldiers in the community as police results in a higher degree of violence by police against the public..



    Dallas Police Department officers with military experience were significantly more likely to have discharged their firearm while on duty than cops with no military service, a study reported this month.


    ..........


    In a 2017 investigation, The Marshall Project found that officers in Boston and in Miami with military experience were more likely to have a use-of-force complaint filed against them. In addition, one-third of the 35 fatal police shootings in Albuquerque from January 2010 to April 2014 involved cops who were military veterans.

    Police With Military Experience More Likely to Shoot
    It's not a stretch to suggest that the traumatic experiences military vets endured make them more trigger happy or more likely to fight instead of peacefully diffusing a potentially threatening situation.
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  15. #3340
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    Do you get that cop training depts currently have little to zero de-escalation training? They have lots of eliminate threat training. This applies to all trainees not just ones that may or may not have ptsd. So, just maybe consider the real problem is systemic and stop falling into the blame the mental illness narrative

  16. #3341
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post
    Do you get that cop training depts currently have little to zero de-escalation training? They have lots of eliminate threat training. This applies to all trainees not just ones that may or may not have ptsd. So, just maybe consider the real problem is systemic and stop falling into the blame the mental illness narrative
    Who dictates what programs are taught in training and who administers this training? Is there a stronger correlation between length of military service, combat experience, and advancement to higher ranks within police departments? I don't know the answer to this, but I suspect it's all tied to the militarization of civilian police forces nationwide. As the number of combat vets increases nationally, so does the number of combat vets rising the ranks of police forces... and so does the number of heavily armed mentally unstable civilians. I can kind of see why we might actually want people on the force who also have heavy military combat experience.. but with that comes the unfortunate baggage they carry. Tough trade offs to consider without further limiting the civilian access to dangerous weapons..

    Ultimately, it's more my nature to look for reasons why the police are acting in these seemingly inexcusable manners rather than just concluding they were born assholes..
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  17. #3342
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    Police Behaving Badly

    ^^^ just shut up.

    Here is a case of a USMC combat veteran who served in Afghanistan who came home and became a cop. Faced with a situation where an African American suspect had a gun out, this cop tried to talk calmly to the suspect to deescalate the situation. Other cops arrived on the scene (who were not combat vets) and immediately killed the suspect. Then the combat veteran was fired by the police department for NOT immediately killing the African American guy.

    https://features.propublica.org/weir...west-virginia/

    So just shut already about veterans being the problem.
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  18. #3343
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    Militarization of the police is a huge problem, but the source of that style of policing equipment and policy is being driven by lobbyists, not vets in the dept necessarily.

  19. #3344
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    Correlation is not causation.....

  20. #3345
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    I don't particularly like the cops, but until you've dealt with some shit, maybe think about what you're saying.

  21. #3346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    ^^^ just shut up.

    Here is a case of a USMC combat veteran who served in Afghanistan who came home and became a cop. Faced with a situation where an African American suspect had a gun out, this cop tried to talk calmly to the suspect to deescalate the situation. Other cops arrived on the scene (who were not combat vets) and immediately killed the suspect. Then the combat veteran was fired by the police department for NOT immediately killing the African American guy.

    https://features.propublica.org/weir...west-virginia/

    So just shut already about veterans being the problem.
    That's an excellent example of some other fucked up shit. And I never said veterans are the problem. Wars (actually fake wars for oil interests) are the problem. Veterans are victims, pawns in the game coming home fucked up (mentally and physically) with few good career options other than joining the police force.
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  22. #3347
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post
    Militarization of the police is a huge problem, but the source of that style of policing equipment and policy is being driven by lobbyists, not vets in the dept necessarily.
    Ever look at how many retired generals and other high ranking military serve on the board of directors for companies like Lockheed Martin and Raytheon? My dad made quite a decent living in the private sector building weapons of war after he retired at LTC. It's more like a chicken and egg thing nowadays.
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  23. #3348
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    People who have studied the psychological impact of combat say that the factor that has the most impact--more than the fear of being killed or grief at the wounding or death of a comrade--is having to kill other people. That might make veteran LEO's less likely to shoot a suspect.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4920722/
    The person most likely to be killed by a PTSD victim is the PTSD victim himself.

    The cop I think would be the most dangerous is not the ex-warrior but the warrior wanna-be--easily frightened, eager to prove their man or woman-hood.

    I get the impression that the rules of engagement for soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq were a lot tighter than the rules for cops stateside.

    It's worth noting that a lot of PTSD cases are in fact TBI from explosions. The symptoms, treatment and outcome may be much different.
    Last edited by old goat; 06-16-2019 at 04:43 PM.

  24. #3349
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    Kenneth French, who was shot and killed by an off duty officer when he apparently started an argument then attacked the cop while cop was holding his kid, is mentally handicapped and non-verbal. Cop also shot French’s parents who are in critical condition. I hope this is on video and justice is served.

  25. #3350
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    Inside the store. There has got to be fucking video of that. None of this shit that passes for official statements makes any sense......

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