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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by jm020 View Post
    asshole opinion?! Why do you think they can get away with paying $15/hr?? Probably because they have stacks of applications and don't need to pay any more. As someone else posted, it's economics 101, supply and demand. Sorry buddy, that's not my opinion...

    On the other hand, I didn't know about the "banning of life" for giving lessons on the side, my bad. Just throwing options out there, and now that I know it's forbidden, I agree that would be a good change and would definitely lower prices of lessons. I still doubt you'd see your hourly rate go any higher at all, but if the lessons are cheaper, maybe more tips/lessons...

    The bottom line though is that you are living in Vail as a ski instructor. If you aren't happy there (or anywhere else for that matter) quit and get a better job. I have plenty of friends in the valley that moved here as an instructor/liftie/patrol/etc, and have moved onto higher paying jobs to support them and their families.
    Throw your opinion away.

    A couple of years ago, it was Vail or one of the other Colorado big resorts that took a guy to federal court for teaching lessons privately. Since it's federal land, federal court has jurisdiction.

    Now, as a couple of lawyers explained this to me, federal court is expensive, with huge legal fees. It's a lot different than local or county courts. The standards are higher. The resort did this to this poor fellow to send a message, which is that they have a monopoly on the ski market and they intend to keep it that way.

    The guy could've fought it, but for hours of billing with pre-trial depositions, the trial itself and the calling of paid expert witnesses--the dude would've been looking at legal fees in excess of five figures, well into six.

    On another point, as some have pointed out, the PSIA is a bunch of tired old windbags who've forgotten that skiing and boarding should be fun. The level of instruction in public K-12 sports is much higher, as most of those coaches have graduated college, studied sports science and coaching, and have to keep up with current developments, such as ethical issues, social issues and, of course, ever evolving techniques.

    Go over the PSIA site, Epic Ski or--shudder!!!--Real Skiers. The discussions are not at the level you have in university based sports science coaching and instruction. Just look at this site, which is the tip of the iceberg of university based sports science, which is to say evidence based coaching:

    http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/csa/thermo/thermo.htm

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Pow View Post
    Would you also be prepared to contribute to the cost of resort operations which allows you to ply your trade?
    Isn't that what the lift ticket fee covers?

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by jm020 View Post
    asshole opinion?! Why do you think they can get away with paying $15/hr?? Probably because they have stacks of applications and don't need to pay any more. As someone else posted, it's economics 101, supply and demand. Sorry buddy, that's not my opinion...

    On the other hand, I didn't know about the "banning of life" for giving lessons on the side, my bad. Just throwing options out there, and now that I know it's forbidden, I agree that would be a good change and would definitely lower prices of lessons. I still doubt you'd see your hourly rate go any higher at all, but if the lessons are cheaper, maybe more tips/lessons...

    The bottom line though is that you are living in Vail as a ski instructor. If you aren't happy there (or anywhere else for that matter) quit and get a better job. I have plenty of friends in the valley that moved here as an instructor/liftie/patrol/etc, and have moved onto higher paying jobs to support them and their families.
    American resorts are basically operating on contracts as local monopolists. They control the land as if it is private property whether it is a lease or privately-owned. So you can't sell your own lessons without permission any more than you can set up your own cheeseburger stand without permission. On average, I doubt that allowing privateering would raise instructor wages either. You might find yourself with an equilibrium where you sell fewer lessons in the aggregate because quality ceases to be easily discernible by the typical consumer. You'd definitely see that $900 price drop quite a bit, though: that's for certain. Who wins and loses beyond that is more of an econ 301 question.

    Of all the industry players to bitch about, though, Vail is pretty far down my list. Yes, they have some market power so they are an obvious target for bitching, but they actually offer health insurance, a 401(k), and an above-market hourly. And at the Vail-owned entity that I have experience with, I would be on the clock for north of 6 hours a day on any day I want to. I had never been offered those things before I went to work for a Vail resort. I've worked for more "core" and "soulful" places that offered a very below-market hourly and split the private request rate 50/50 or better with the instructor. If you got a really big clientele of returners, working at a place like that would probably be better. The only problem is it was very hard to develop that kind of clientele at that place and you still had no 401(k) and health insurance.

    It seems to me that if you really want to make a living at it rather than have it as a hobby, you have to have some combination of your PSIA 3, a shitload of returning private clients, or get into management (which probably requires your PSIA 3 if you aspire to be one of the handful of people making a salary at any given resort). If you have those things and really hustle, you can make a decent living if you live in one of the higher-ski instructor-wage places in the US (which you already are! you work for Vail!).

    Unfortunately, to get your 3, get a shitload of returning clients, or get into management, you need to be at the top of the heap, either on paper or in practice. This means you need to be an exceptionally great skier, an exceptionally great people person and teacher, or you need to be really great at learning the craft and improving yourself very quickly (and able to endure poverty wages while doing so). Given the style of bitching you've committed yourself to, this probably isn't you. Do it part-time and find something else.

  4. #54
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    I agree with quite a bit of what sirshedalot posted- Vail isn't the worst employer around in terms of benefits and training opportunities, but I think the only one of their core values the executive really care about is "Driving Value" with Doing Good and many of the other stated values taking a back seat.

    FWIW, I have had very good client reviews and year end evals. Also, the last 3 supervisors hired at my pod were either cert 1 or 2s.

  5. #55
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    If you wanna have fun and ski, don't be a ski instructor and move the fuck out of Vail. You don't make money working on the hill or in a shop. You watch other people have fun or babysit their children all for $9/hr
    The sooner wannabe skibums start to realize this, the happier and healthier they'll be. And maybe, just maybe, the decreased labor supply will increase wages for people you are really passionate about babysitting kids and tourists, I mean teaching.
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyoverland Captive View Post
    Isn't that what the lift ticket fee covers?
    That's part of it, but there are other revenue streams which contribute.

    And which guests would pay but not independent isnstructors.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Pow View Post
    That's part of it, but there are other revenue streams which contribute.

    And which guests would pay but not independent isnstructors.
    Like what? I would be happy to purchase a season pass and pay full price for on mountain food if I was allowed to teach independently.

  8. #58
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    You dense? Or just keeping a conversation going with yourself?

    To develop an area like Vail takes immense amounts of money. Given that you really expect a publicly traded Corporation to just nod and say, yeah go ahead, cut off a slice, were cool with that?

    Ski area work is what you make of it and the vast majority of workers aren't in it for the money. Are instructors exploited? Probably.

    Still better than picking tomatoes.

    It may not be fair but it is reality.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

    "Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"

  9. #59
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    Last week i did a ski lesson for a case of beer, she did bring by some really good beer so i didn't feel exploited
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by FairWages View Post
    Like what? I would be happy to purchase a season pass and pay full price for on mountain food if I was allowed to teach independently.
    Lodging, rental, food & beverage.

    It's not just a season pass price. It would be a commercial pass taking into operation costs and loss of revenue.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Pow View Post
    Lodging, rental, food & beverage.

    It's not just a season pass price. It would be a commercial pass taking into operation costs and loss of revenue.
    It could be argued that a private instructor would bring clients to the hill who would not have otherwise skied, thus providing lift ticket / food revenue that would not exist otherwise. Lots of variables.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyoverland Captive View Post
    It could be argued that a private instructor would bring clients to the hill who would not have otherwise skied, thus providing lift ticket / food revenue that would not exist otherwise. Lots of variables.
    Yeah, and some people make that argument and negotiate with the resort to host a clinic or program there. If you can convince the operator that you're making it rain, they'll give you the chance to prove it.

  13. #63
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    Head beating wall with this level of basic stupidity.

    I can't even attempt to take this thread seriously.

    Presume operation threadcunting. Which is apropos here, as opposed to the nice taste of philosophy offered in the Cyber Monday thread that deserves no cunting. Hint.
    Is it radix panax notoginseng? - splat
    This is like hanging yourself but the rope breaks. - DTM
    Dude Listen to mtm. He's a marriage counselor at burning man. - subtle plague

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirshredalot View Post
    Yeah, and some people make that argument and negotiate with the resort to host a clinic or program there. If you can convince the operator that you're making it rain, they'll give you the chance to prove it.
    BINGO!!!!!

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirshredalot View Post
    It seems to me that if you really want to make a living at it rather than have it as a hobby, you have to have some combination of your PSIA 3, a shitload of returning private clients, or get into management (which probably requires your PSIA 3 if you aspire to be one of the handful of people making a salary at any given resort). If you have those things and really hustle, you can make a decent living if you live in one of the higher-ski instructor-wage places in the US (which you already are! you work for Vail!).
    Well said... and if you look this definition up, you'll see a picture of Weems Westfield.
    Screw the net, Surf the backcountry!

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodneyyee View Post

    A real job ? Please elaborate, do you shovel roofs or chop wood to prove how woodsy and mountainey you are?
    actually yes I do both

    I"m so core that when I shovel roofs I never rope in either

  17. #67
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    as mentioned before the great thing about vail is they have thousands of people every season who want to come live the dream, there ready to show up party like their on vacation every day and ski and ride like they are the best on the mountain

    its mind booggling how many people are desperte to get here each october and stay till march, so sure they can offer really low paying jobs with housing that costs over half their check and people are lined up at the door to take part in the lifestyle

    vail doesn't care about their employees weather you at the top or the bottom, everyone is dispsoable, people with twenty years of service get axed all the time

    so you say your a first year ski instructor well guess what your title should realy read babysitter why is it the people I know who have been teaching for 15 or 20 or more years don't seem to bitch about their job, thats right there getting paid well and they aren't 1st or 2nd year babysitters

  18. #68
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    Ski Instructor Pay- Details

    I don't know if it's been mentioned but some places are pretty good. I'm only a level 2, get about 6 hrs/day guaranteed work, can freeski in downtime, and make 55% of what a customer pays at the window if I get a private request, which can boost hourly wage to something like what pipe fitters get. I try HARD to generate repeat business because of this.
    So ... If you don't like yer ski school ... Move.
    Edit to add: or get better at your job.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Pow View Post
    BINGO!!!!!
    Mike, are Niseko and other Japanese resorts operated on land owned by the government? Private?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest_Hemingway View Post
    I realize there is not much hope for a bullfighting forum. I understand that most of you would prefer to discuss the ingredients of jacket fabrics than the ingredients of a brave man. I know nothing of the former. But the latter is made of courage, and skill, and grace in the presence of the possibility of death. If someone could make a jacket of those three things it would no doubt be the most popular and prized item in all of your closets.

  20. #70
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    Shouldn't your average ski instructor have like 3 or 4 other jobs?

    Just look at Tony D'Annunzio in Caddyshack. He'd schlep both the Havercamp's bags all day and then sling Rusty Nails for Czervik all night.
    Probably squeezed in 18 holes for himself too, he almost won the caddy tournament!

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Pow View Post
    Lodging, rental, food & beverage.

    It's not just a season pass price. It would be a commercial pass taking into operation costs and loss of revenue.
    So is Vail now requiring people to spent money on lodging, rental, F & B to ski the mountain?

    Yes, the out of state guests do this, but there are still a lot of people who drive up from Denver/Front Range as day skiers. Remember, Vail has a NON-EXCLUSIVE Special Use Permit issued at a below market lease rate on US Government land. Would Vail lose some revenue if a 2nd Ski School and/or Independent Instructors were issued SUPs by the Forest Service? Of course, if you studied your monopoly lesson, you would have learned that an efficiently run monopoly is more profitable than a business who has to compete in a free (or less monopolistic) market. There are some pretty smart people running Vail (who are very focused on the bottom line)- Do they really need the benefit of a government sponsored monopoly with a below market lease payment?

    Vail is not open to offers from outside Instructors because they don't want give up any control of their position as the exclusive employer of over 2,000 Vail Valley Ski Instructors- that's how they keep wages low.

    Vail's SUP payments start at under 2% and max at 4% of revenue to the US Gov. I'd be happy to pay the US Gov 8% to run a competing ski school and pay another 2% into a fund to be split by all Vail Resort Employees.

    Quote Originally Posted by fastfred View Post
    as mentioned before the great thing about vail is they have thousands of people every season who want to come live the dream, there ready to show up party like their on vacation every day and ski and ride like they are the best on the mountain

    its mind booggling how many people are desperte to get here each october and stay till march, so sure they can offer really low paying jobs with housing that costs over half their check and people are lined up at the door to take part in the lifestyle

    vail doesn't care about their employees weather you at the top or the bottom, everyone is dispsoable, people with twenty years of service get axed all the time

    so you say your a first year ski instructor well guess what your title should realy read babysitter why is it the people I know who have been teaching for 15 or 20 or more years don't seem to bitch about their job, thats right there getting paid well and they aren't 1st or 2nd year babysitters
    Who said anything about being a 1st year instructor? I have worked multiple years at Vail and non-Vail resorts. I have received supporting emails from many Instructors with 20+ years experience.

  22. #72
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    oh boy, Economics explains everything!

    and who said that what Economics asserts is the only explanation for how/why things work that way?

    the $15 to instructor, $135 to hill for a $150 lesson isn't "economics at work." holy fuck.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Notchtop View Post
    I don't know if it's been mentioned but some places are pretty good. I'm only a level 2, get about 6 hrs/day guaranteed work, can freeski in downtime, and make 55% of what a customer pays at the window if I get a private request, which can boost hourly wage to something like what pipe fitters get. I try HARD to generate repeat business because of this.
    So ... If you don't like yer ski school ... Move.
    Edit to add: or get better at your job.
    Its great that you are making 55% on private requests. I agree that some resorts, like Aspen, pay a decent wage to top instructors.

    Would you make the same argument about moving if you were an attorney who owned a home in Los Angeles and the US Gov decided that it was in the public interest to have a "Regulated Monopoly" in Los Angeles with only 1 company being allowed to sell legal services to the public. Sure, you could move to San Diego if attorneys there were making twice as much, but why should you have to?

    Vail/Beaver Creek Ski Instructors get an extra $6/hr on a private request- I am sure all would be happy if they were making the close to the 55% you are.

    Here is what one Vail Instructor emailed me-

    Dear FW,


    I do support what you are doing and your tactics. I like the dissidence that you are spreading... I believe that true change can only come from organization and discontent at the bottom.


    The company charges a lot for our services, and does not compensate accordingly. It's like I run my own business, and someone else gets the reward for my hard work and professionalism.


    The hardest part about the wage issue for me is when I book my own privates. When I do all the work i.e.: following up, getting the booking, getting the credit card info, having the client sign the waiver, meet them at their residence/hotel/condo, teach, advise, plan, equipment rental,and all the other details... I strongly feel I should get at LEAST 1/3 if not half of the private fee.


    Tipping does not cover it! Keep up the good work and rattle the cages even harder. Wow, that felt good.
    Last edited by FairWages; 12-02-2014 at 09:07 AM.

  24. #74
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    Be careful. If you raise too much of a stink on this you will be blacklisted at Vail. Then you'll have to find a real job waiting tables or at city market and find out how awesome being a ski instructor was.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by LightRanger View Post
    Mike, are Niseko and other Japanese resorts operated on land owned by the government? Private?
    Mixture.

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