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  1. #801
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    Besides bitchin' about rents and the lack of affordable housing for a local to purchase, what can be done? I've yet to see any kind of affordable housing program that works. Unlike many Americans, I think homeownership is a privilege not a right. Deed restricted programs benefit very few. Employee housing is a large benefit to the employer.

    How long is the winter commute from Victor or Bondurant? Why can't affordable housing be in these communities? Why do people think they deserve to live within 15mins. of their job and the ski area (sorry "Village")?

    It sucks, but it comes off whiny and unrealistic. Lots of people drive an hour to work or recreation because they live where they can afford. What's so different about Jackson?
    Last edited by Foggy_Goggles; 08-13-2015 at 01:53 PM. Reason: comprehension

  2. #802
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    jackson is in wyoming
    Zone Controller

    "He wants to be a pro, bro, not some schmuck." - Hugh Conway

    "DigitalDeath would kick my ass. He has the reach of a polar bear." - Crass3000

  3. #803
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles View Post

    How long is the winter commute from Victor or Bondurant?
    My lady commutes everyday Victor to Stillson in the winter, Victor to the Aspens in the summer. She leaves 5 minutes earlier than need be to beat the morning commute and averages about 35 minutes. Plenty of others do to.

    In CA my commute was 45 minutes to get 5 miles on the freeway. It could be way worse and its a small price to pay to live where we live and do what we do.

  4. #804
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    ^^^and the crusty fucks that think the world owes them something will keep bitchin' or leave while people like Snapt will move to town with their head held high thankful for everything they have.

  5. #805
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    http://planetjh.com/2015/08/04/the-b...es-of-blair-3/ We don't need home ownership, we need greater rental density in
    town to support all the mega homes and hotels that get approved.

    I'm a small business owner and homeowner but was lucky (well, and maybe smart) to get my toe hold here.

    With housing supply artificially limited to the extreme this place is going to crack soon.

    As an example, I have a prospective employee who would love to work here, and I am paying a competitive wage for Chicago, where he lives, he is ready and willing to relocate with his wife, but vacancy is under 1% and we can't find a work around.

    5 pages of jobs, 3 listings for rentals, and it aint like Alpine and Victor are much better, because he would certainly consider those options.

    Just sayin'

  6. #806
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    Oh, and having been the Grand Marshall/Starter of the Rental Derby, I can stand as the officiant for the Baby Bear-Digital Death ski off.

    My money is on Baby Bear, though that shan't color my view of the proceedings.

  7. #807
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles View Post
    Besides bitchin' about rents and the lack of affordable housing for a local to purchase, what can be done? I've yet to see any kind of affordable housing program that works. Unlike many Americans, I think homeownership is a privilege not a right. Deed restricted programs benefit very few. Employee housing is a large benefit to the employer.

    How long is the winter commute from Victor or Bondurant? Why can't affordable housing be in these communities? Why do people think they deserve to live within 15mins. of their job and the ski area (sorry "Village")?

    It sucks, but it comes off whiny and unrealistic. Lots of people drive an hour to work or recreation because they live where they can afford. What's so different about Jackson?
    from stuff i've read from proponents, deed restricted sales benefit a lot of folks. Even if they don't gain the appreciation, they get access to and benefits from the credit system, and often move up to a market unit successfully. I'm a little confused why JHHA decided to let that ban on appreciation expire after 20 years or whatever the number is.

    Like snapt said, commute from idaho to JH ranges from 30 in Victor proper to 45ish from Driggs. I work north of JH and drive 55 minutes each way, each day- and am stoked to do it, but i fkn dig living in spudcountry. It's been the 'affordable' option to living in JH for decades. But like StuporGaper says, it's getting super tight there too.

    Probably millions of people drive 30-45 minutes to work every day from where they could afford or chose to live. Only difference in JH is that the town/county planners, so by extension the 'community', set, years ago, a goal of housing 65% of the JH workforce in JH. Now that the rental pool is reaching epic clusterfuck, that percent, which was never close to 65%, is dropping even more. I'm conflicted, personally. I get the idea that workers bring a soul and sense of community if they live where they work. But personally i'll take smaller town Teton Valley living any day, grinning as I crest the pass each evening over to the 'bright side', sipping a tall PBR from the incredibly well located Stagecoach Drive-thru Liquor Store...
    Something about the wrinkle in your forehead tells me there's a fit about to get thrown
    And I never hear a single word you say when you tell me not to have my fun
    It's the same old shit that I ain't gonna take off anyone.
    and I never had a shortage of people tryin' to warn me about the dangers I pose to myself.

    Patterson Hood of the DBT's

  8. #808
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    Where I live, the Fraser River Valley in CO, we've had some affordable housing initiatives over the course of the last couple of decades. In my opinion, they have not provided a sizable benefit to either a. a large number of people or b. the community as a whole. Anytime the topic comes up in a public meeting, people can't differentiate between the need for "employee housing" i.e. lower cost rental units for people with lower income jobs in the service industry and "attainable housing" i.e. deed restricted home "ownership" for moderate income families in such. Which is it that Jackson needs most? What does JMHR do for their employees.

    Does the bus go to Alpine? What would the four units in this place rent for monthly http://www.realtor.com/realestateand...03-47337?row=9 ? Show me some multifamily lots in Victor.

  9. #809
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    yea they have buses that go to JH from both alpine area and over the pass.
    not sure what the schedule was like but when my brother and sister in law lived in victor she would use the bus quite often and are geared towards typical work hours

    Seems like a lot of friends have been buying down in the Alpine zone recently vs in the past most were looking over the pass. lots of pros and cons to each. I think the idea of staying in Wyo is appealing for income tax purposes

  10. #810
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    ^^^I know Jackson/Teton Valley is a big and busy place but I'm guessing we've got some mutual friends. All my friends live in ID.

    I find this stuff interesting because it has everything to do with the sustainability of a lifestyle many of us are committed to. That's to say, what is "working class" is a resort town going to look like?

    From afar, it looks to me like Jackson has two challenges. One is a commuting problem. If we are talking about a 2/2 with a garage in Jackson for <$400K, I don't think that is going to happen. I'm guessing the demand for that property from school teachers, bank managers, white collar folk up at the 'Vill is about infinite. Your housing authority (assuming you have one), could levy a 1%ish real estate transfer tax and build some deed restricted units then have a dick sucking contest about "saving the town".

    Problems are a. you can build enough units to make a real difference b. mortgages are for 30 years. You can't enforce that the teacher/fireman/town employee stays in their job that long so you end up providing a benefit to someone for who is was not intended. c. you got government involved in building the house of cards, which is your economy being tied to real estate values, higher and higher.

    I think a some reasonable solution to this challenge is to embrace commuting and the bedroom communities. Expand bus service, build a commuter center (like latch key for adults), etc. Before you know it, population growth (and demographic shift) will lead to changes in Victor, Alpine etc. I know the Mo's that run Victor will hate it, but that's life.

    I think the employee housing challenge is bigger. On one hand, you can say that it is the employer's problem and that if they can't find the employees because of a shortage of affordable rentals, then they should either raise their wages or create the affordable housing themselves. What I've seen happen in this scenario is that the large corporate employers (ski area etc.) provide the housing by whatever means necessary to their employees. Employment with housing attached is indentured servitude and sucks. Also, small businesses get squeezed because they don't have to capital to provide housing. I think this is a bigger concern long term because you risk becoming a "company town". I haven't seen this yet on a whole town scale but many base villages have suffered this fate where all the "soul" is gone because the small businesses all got kicked out.

  11. #811
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    Nine out of ten folks I talk to who are looking/buying/bought in Alpine cite winter pass driving as the biggest factor. Personally I find the pass a breeze and am scared shitless by the semis on ice in the canyon...
    Something about the wrinkle in your forehead tells me there's a fit about to get thrown
    And I never hear a single word you say when you tell me not to have my fun
    It's the same old shit that I ain't gonna take off anyone.
    and I never had a shortage of people tryin' to warn me about the dangers I pose to myself.

    Patterson Hood of the DBT's

  12. #812
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tye 1on View Post
    Nine out of ten folks I talk to who are looking/buying/bought in Alpine cite winter pass driving as the biggest factor. Personally I find the pass a breeze and am scared shitless by the semis on ice in the canyon...
    If I was commuting from Alpine I'd invest in a Zamboni.

  13. #813
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles View Post
    I think the employee housing challenge is bigger. On one hand, you can say that it is the employer's problem and that if they can't find the employees because of a shortage of affordable rentals, then they should either raise their wages or create the affordable housing themselves. What I've seen happen in this scenario is that the large corporate employers (ski area etc.) provide the housing by whatever means necessary to their employees. Employment with housing attached is indentured servitude and sucks. Also, small businesses get squeezed because they don't have to capital to provide housing. I think this is a bigger concern long term because you risk becoming a "company town". I haven't seen this yet on a whole town scale but many base villages have suffered this fate where all the "soul" is gone because the small businesses all got kicked out.
    Something that I do think is a bit different for Jackson compared to most other ski towns is that the tourist economy in Jackson isn't really centered just around the ski resort. Everyone I know up there says that town is way busier in the summer due to tourist traffic heading through GTNP and Yellowstone, which makes sense. So you have a demand for a whole stack of low wage jobs (restaurant staff, gift shop retail, etc.) being provided by companies that aren't big corporate employers - moreso than most "ski towns" I've spent any time in.

    Another interesting thing about Jackson is it seems to me that there's a severe lack of multi-unit developments compared to almost any other resort destination. That makes for a lot less "affordable" housing (purchasing or renting) no matter what other programs are in place.

    I don't have any solutions, just a couple observations about things that seem different about Jackson compared to other places - which would imply to me that solutions that worked or failed elsewhere may or may not have the same result in Jackson.

  14. #814
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    On some fronts, the summer economy actually adds to the sustainability of the place. Another fairly unique aspect of Jackson is that it is the largest town for hours. For example, your dryer shits the bed in your rental, your buying one in Jackson.

  15. #815
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles View Post
    I find this stuff interesting because it has everything to do with the sustainability of a lifestyle many of us are committed to. That's to say, what is a "working class" resort town going to look like?

    .
    Like Victor and Driggs. Our vacation home boom was all about building upscale subdivisions and trophy properties (yes, we too have some millionaires and billionaires) well outside of town. For the most part, the boom was a collusion between the county officials who were cozy with the rural land owners who were selling to developers who wanted lax county regs, not town rules. Very, very little upscale residential development happened in town. Victor and Driggs are a mix: rehabbed but still the old moribund housing stock from decades back, supplemented by newer but rather modest homes and a surprising amount of beat to shit old trailers on trailer park lots. Trying to limit the sprawl and support the towns is still an issue. Recently, Huntsman Springs, the massive development that had achieved concessions by promising to invest heavily in developing Driggs, was allowed to wriggle out of its promises and refocus its build out to the corner of the property farthest away from town. The developers feel Driggs is bad for property values and they don't want to expend any more efforts on building affordable housing in town (they did build some nice apartment buildings before the bust). They are going to build a trophy home, golf course property/resort that is as far outside Driggs as possible but still hooked up to town services. The last three Teton Valley golf course subdivisions each failed spectacularly and are still mired in failure. The big equestrian themed, rich bitch development was a total failure and all the horse facilities were repossessed. The ski resort expansion was a failure before it launched. Meanwhile, there is a definite shortage of affordable homes and rentals for under $700 plus rising demand as fewer and fewer workers in Jackson can live there. Good thing the free market always works efficiently! Face it, it's a 1%ers world. Even when it totally flies in the face of common sense, the wealthy developers up here would rather fail big building another golf course than win small by building something affordable for the other 90%. That's why we have a housing shortage in a valley where land is still dirt cheap. Most of the local guys I know in construction have little incentive to work in the Teton Valley with Jackson's $1100/sq.ft. gold rush going on next door.
    Last edited by neckdeep; 08-14-2015 at 10:54 AM.

  16. #816
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    Actually, odds are you're driving to Idaho Falls to replace that dryer.

    There are lots of beautiful places with great recreational opportunities and no rat race for substandard, overpriced housing. I feel like I dodged a bullet not moving to the Tetons, personally. They are gorgeous, and a great place to visit, but it isn't a place I wanted to hang my hat after spending a decent amount of time there.

    If you can make it work and the lifestyle suits you, rock on, but there are going to need to be big changes in that area to support any kind of legitimate workforce beyond the tourism/service industry and retired millionaires. There's a lot more to life than skiing and looking at pretty mountains.

    The development that has happened in Teton Valley is an utter cluster. The lack of planning, or just plain piss poor planning that went into subdividing tracts of that valley ~15 years ago will haunt it for decades to come. 10% built out subdivisions located as far as possible from the centers of Driggs or Victor, and even further from anything resembling some trees for privacy or wind protection make it feel like a rural Detroit without all of the potential for revitalization.
    Last edited by glademaster; 08-14-2015 at 09:48 AM.

  17. #817
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    Actually with Sears here you can get fine appliances at good prices right in town

  18. #818
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles View Post
    ^^^

    I think a some reasonable solution to this challenge is to embrace commuting and the bedroom communities. Expand bus service, build a commuter center (like latch key for adults), etc. Before you know it, population growth (and demographic shift) will lead to changes in Victor, Alpine etc. I know the Mo's that run Victor will hate it, but that's life.
    1. The "Mo's" don't run Victor, or Driggs, or even Teton County, at least as of the most recent elections.
    2. That sounds pretty bigoted.

  19. #819
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    ^^^It does sound bigoted but I'm not bigot. Bad choice of words, sorry. I'm not the local expert but have an opinion formed by some good friends that live in Drictor. Said a more pc way - I get the impression that the good 'ol boys network is in full effect and that the powers that be in Teton county are an impediment to beneficial change.

    Again, I could be wrong. I've got no dog in the fight just interested in seeing what is going on in a community that seems to be ground zero is the resort town housing development arena.

  20. #820
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperGaper View Post
    http://planetjh.com/2015/08/04/the-b...es-of-blair-3/
    With housing supply artificially limited to the extreme this place is going to crack soon.
    Thanks for posting that link couple interesting points in that article. First why's Robyn and the Planet keep knocking Vail? Take a look at the MLS you can buy a condo in Vail under $300,000 or a 2 bedroom in East Vail for under $350,000 ski to your backyard take the free golf course bus back to the village (10 minutes), Vail sucks East Vail does not..

    But the real scary part of the article is about the Sheriff's. Only 2 of whom actual live in Teton County. [YIKES]

    “For my colleagues who don’t live where they work, the county is saying, ‘We want you to work here, but we don’t want your kids to go to school here or recreate here or be a part of the community here,’” Carr said. “My colleagues don’t have the sense of community enjoyed by people who live here.”

    “As law enforcement, we all fear something happening in our schools,” said Carr, who has been with the sheriff’s department since 1999, becoming a sergeant just a few months ago. “If we have an active shooter or a crisis that occurs in Victor or Driggs or Alpine, we’ve got you covered. But if it happens here, I’m not so sure. They’ll come, but it will be a while.”

    Did that last paragraph really get quoted and published? Harsh but something to consider, especially considering most families here have guns and lots of em.

  21. #821
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    TCSO kind of shoots themselves in the foot on that one by allowing deputies to commute in their patrol rigs and stay on the clock while they're in the county...nice little incentive...
    Something about the wrinkle in your forehead tells me there's a fit about to get thrown
    And I never hear a single word you say when you tell me not to have my fun
    It's the same old shit that I ain't gonna take off anyone.
    and I never had a shortage of people tryin' to warn me about the dangers I pose to myself.

    Patterson Hood of the DBT's

  22. #822
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tye 1on View Post
    TCSO kind of shoots themselves in the foot on that one by allowing deputies to commute in their patrol rigs and stay on the clock while they're in the county...nice little incentive...
    What's a TCSO patrol deputy make? Sounds like opportunity for somebody.

  23. #823
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperGaper View Post
    Oh, and having been the Grand Marshall/Starter of the Rental Derby, I can stand as the officiant for the Baby Bear-Digital Death ski off.

    My money is on Baby Bear, though that shan't color my view of the proceedings.
    I was thinking of tram laps all day top to bottom. As the Grand Marshal SuperGaper you could call each run as they load. I'll keep you fueled with adult beverages, DD, I'll give you a 1000 dollars if you can beat Baby Bear.

  24. #824
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    Make it Granite laps and I'm in.
    Move upside and let the man go through...

  25. #825
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    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldeath View Post
    thats on you, i was giving you the courtesy. FYI i dont stop for lunch, i only stop to call out posers snaking my lines
    Lmao. I remember my first pow day. I was riding with a homie and had to take a piss like a motherfucker. But as I quickly learned there's no fucking bathroom stops on a pow day, or friends.

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