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  1. #76
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    I tried tubeless on my existing ~23mm ID rims & kept burping the tires too much. Picked up the wider (~31mm) carbon rims for weight savings primarily, but I'm also hoping to not burp tires so much. I'm told wider rims should help with this. Also have 2.4 tires on the carbon so I don't risk pinch rim shots.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesp View Post
    I tried tubeless on my existing ~23mm ID rims & kept burping the tires too much. Picked up the wider (~31mm) carbon rims for weight savings primarily, but I'm also hoping to not burp tires so much. I'm told wider rims should help with this. Also have 2.4 tires on the carbon so I don't risk pinch rim shots.
    makes sense. I guess bead/rim sidewall connection have a lot to do with that too. 2.5 minion exo's on 23 inner 823's have never burped. I can't remember ever having a problem with my 19mm inner crossmax either(2.35 ust hr on the rear). part of the reason I'm hesitant to try other rims/company inspite of 823 weight. that big pop when they seat when you air them up gives a sense of confidence. lb has a 24mm. wonder if anyone has had any burping issues with those?

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo View Post
    So is your perception of what happens at speed. Why do you think enve's newer layups stress increased vertical compliance?

    Of course you knew that didn't you?
    To avoid the breakages they are having? To make them worth the +$2,000 price tag? I guess I'll have to ride faster to find out.

    So ... do you like tight spokes? That's part of the picture too. Just a hunch cause I'm not a wheel specialist.

    But I didn't find a chattery bone on the last hardtail 29er I rode that had wide carbon rims and high volume tires at a good tire pressure.

    edit: but thinking about it. The spandex crew racing at 150psi on carbon rims probably do notice. Just get ESI grips and a better chamois.

    Last edited by puregravity; 11-17-2014 at 07:52 PM.
    OH, MY GAWD! ―John Hillerman  Big Billie Eilish fan.
    But that's a quibble to what PG posted (at first, anyway, I haven't read his latest book) ―jono
    we are not arguing about ski boots or fashionable clothing or spageheti O's which mean nothing in the grand scheme ― XXX-er

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by grinch View Post
    makes sense. I guess bead/rim sidewall connection have a lot to do with that too. 2.5 minion exo's on 23 inner 823's have never burped. I can't remember ever having a problem with my 19mm inner crossmax either(2.35 ust hr on the rear). part of the reason I'm hesitant to try other rims/company inspite of 823 weight. that big pop when they seat when you air them up gives a sense of confidence. lb has a 24mm. wonder if anyone has had any burping issues with those?
    But what psi do you ride at? Can you go 15-20 psi on rooty/rocky trails without a burp? That's where I figure the extra rim width helps with tubeless setup.

    OH, MY GAWD! ―John Hillerman  Big Billie Eilish fan.
    But that's a quibble to what PG posted (at first, anyway, I haven't read his latest book) ―jono
    we are not arguing about ski boots or fashionable clothing or spageheti O's which mean nothing in the grand scheme ― XXX-er

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by puregravity View Post
    So ... do you like tight spokes? That's part of the picture too. Just a hunch cause I'm not a wheel specialist.
    You don't seem to really be a specialist at anything bike related other than believing everything you read on mtbr from a bunch of hacks.
    Besides the comet that killed the dinosaurs nothing has destroyed a species faster than entitled white people.-ajp

  6. #81
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    ^^^ lol. That's a good troll Kidwoo. But you didn't answer the question.

    OH, MY GAWD! ―John Hillerman  Big Billie Eilish fan.
    But that's a quibble to what PG posted (at first, anyway, I haven't read his latest book) ―jono
    we are not arguing about ski boots or fashionable clothing or spageheti O's which mean nothing in the grand scheme ― XXX-er

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by puregravity View Post
    But what psi do you ride at? Can you go 15-20 psi on rooty/rocky trails without a burp? That's where I figure the extra rim width helps with tubeless setup.

    15-20 I find the tire sidewall flexes to much in the corners. for xc I like about 25ish front and a lil more in the rear the odd time I put a gauge on. park I pump them hard for jumpy jump and more stability in the corners

  8. #83
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    It's not that tight spokes are part of the picture, it's that running them all sloppy and giving up anything resembling reasonable life is also possible. Doesn't make it right.

    If you want a more complaint wheel try longer and thinner spokes; lace it 4X or something. If you can tell the difference in a blind test it will be newsworthy.

    Even with road slicks at 130 psi on a full carbon frame I've never been able to detect the sheet of paper I always roll over to calibrate my sense of wheel stiffness. My disappointment mounts. Then I go back to suspension.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by puregravity View Post
    ^^^ lol. That's a good troll Kidwoo. But you didn't answer the question.

    On aluminum rims I use straight gauge spokes specifically to get the wheel as tight as I absolutely can. And then keep them there. That's mostly because they flex less.

    On my enve wheelset they came with butted spokes which I hadn't ridden in about 10 years until then. I expected I'd be changing them out but haven't yet. Even though they were used, I had to retension them several times before they'd settled they were stretching so much. They're still on there.

    So even with spokes designed to add elasticity to a wheel, they give way more chattery feedback, even compared to stiffasfuck™ dh rims.

    Which is pretty much what anyone with a clue has already been saying for years.

    Since you only believe things on the internet, here:

    http://dirtmountainbike.com/features...need-them.html

    Pay special attention to 1:08 and 4:45 on. He speaks in the queen's language and she's on your currency to you have to listen.

    .....although I don't buy the BS about having to be an aggressivealpinebiker to benefit from light, stiff rims....... But I'm american so I don't have to listen.
    Last edited by kidwoo; 11-17-2014 at 09:36 PM.
    Besides the comet that killed the dinosaurs nothing has destroyed a species faster than entitled white people.-ajp

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo View Post
    On my enve wheelset they came with butted spokes....Even though they were used, I had to retension them several times before they'd settled they were stretching so much.
    Mind clarifying that a bit? Are you saying these came with used spokes or that you would expect butted spokes not to need re-tensioning?

    Sounds like the spokes were not stress relieved properly. Losing tension up front and then stabilizing after being re-tensioned a few times means they were yielding in places that would be under less stress after changing shape--that applies to elbows really obviously, but not so much to the middle 90%. (And, of course, elbows are the easiest part to get wrong anyway.) It's worth remembering that the amount of radial deflection at the rim as a result of that action is really really small. Less than the length of spoke that gets taken up again when you tighten them back up. So even if that was the source of deflection during riding, would you notice that more than your tire and suspension?

    I'm not claiming no one can tell any difference between stiffer and less stiff rims, but the 'stretch' described doesn't sound like it's related to either wheel stiffness or lack of it.
    Last edited by jono; 11-17-2014 at 09:55 PM.

  11. #86
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    They stretched as if they were new spokes. On a wheelset that had obviously been ridden. But I bought them from a guy in chicago who just had a kid so I pretty much expected that.

    And yeah I'm one of the people who will tell you there's quite a bit of difference in feel between butted and straight gauge spokes. That determines a wheelset's stiffness as much or more than a rim IMO.

    I know straight guage spokes stretch too but when I used to use butted ones it seems like I was always retensioning them way more. Because why wouldn't a thinner section stretch more than a thicker straight wall? Both will reach a baseline. But one seems to always take a little longer.

    I only mentioned it because it means my very first ride on them included the period when they were the 'most' elastic. Which is precisely where I noticed the difference in resonance the most.
    Besides the comet that killed the dinosaurs nothing has destroyed a species faster than entitled white people.-ajp

  12. #87
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    So, I'm reading Roger Musson's book right now. Pretty interesting stuff, though I have yet to do any actual wheel building myself.
    What's curious is that he seems to poo poo the idea of tighter spoke lacing making any difference. Seems to suggest that as long as they're moderately well tightened, the wheel will be as stiff as it can be thanks to the engineering beauty of the lacing pattern. He also doesn't put much stock in the performance difference of different spokes. Other than saying single butted aren't any good and bladed are stupid.
    Definitely goes against a lot of the opinions I've read from maggots over the years.

  13. #88
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    If they lost elasticity throughout that period then the movement was definitely not in the straight portions of the spokes. Steel doesn't change it's stiffness during yield; strength might change quite noticeably, but not stiffness. On the other hand, elbows or crossing points that were carrying a wider bend radius would be more elastic than ones that have been bent in and re-tightened.

    I'm not disputing your observations, but I would guess that without your re-tensioning you would have broken some spokes in short order. I mention it because I think this whole discussion gets muddied by wheels that don't have enough tension to provide a proper comparison. People draw conclusions from them for the wrong reasons. Like the rims in that video with no spokes: it's easy to see which rims are stiffer, but knowing what that means when they're built up is far less obvious. The carbon rims might easily be 5X as stiff as Al with no spokes and when built up the carbon wheel might be all of 5% stiffer.

    Of course, I am also in the camp that says spoke stiffness matters more than rim stiffness, but they're both deceptive. Anyone still reading, here's an experiment: take a carbon-rimmed wheel and measure the distance between rim and hub. Put enough weight on it to bottom out your suspension, then have your lovely assistant measure the distance between the rim and hub again while you hold the bike down. (I'll suggest the use of a stick cut to length with a couple of very thin shims as an internal feeler gage; just check the number of shims needed in each case...best to have your lovely assistant feel the right amount of resistance the first time, too.) If you can't see any difference, imagine how much heavier you would have to be to change the contact patch by flexing the rim.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by jm2e View Post
    So, I'm reading Roger Musson's book right now...he seems to poo poo the idea of tighter spoke lacing making any difference. Seems to suggest that as long as they're moderately well tightened, the wheel will be as stiff as it can be thanks to the engineering beauty of the lacing pattern.
    That's absolutely correct...as long as there's enough tension, and assuming you're talking about wheel stiffness and not spoke life. Without enough tension a spoke can go into compression at the bottom of the rotation; obviously, this must be avoided. Spoke life generally goes up with higher tension because the relative change in tension is smaller, which means less fatigue.  

    ETA: it also assumes stress relieved spokes, which often doesn't happen with moderate spoke tension. Spokes with big sweeping bends in them aren't stiff.
    Last edited by jono; 11-17-2014 at 10:54 PM.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by jm2e View Post
    Seems to suggest that as long as they're moderately well tightened, the wheel will be as stiff as it can be thanks to the engineering beauty of the lacing pattern.
    That's kinda sorta true.....to a point. What you'll find though is that minimum recommended tension numbers usually end up with a wheel you end up truing more often, and one that flat spots easier. That's because it's easier to deform the rim with less tension on it all around. Deform it enough and it bends/stays that way. You can get roughly the same amount of deflection from wheels with fairly different spoke tension, so 'as stiff' but wail on it hard enough and they're going to behave differently. But if spoke tension didn't matter, staying on top of keeping new wheels tensioned wouldn't be such a big deal. But it is. Tension matters.

    That's kind of the difference between butted and straight gauge spokes too though. I can't even remember the last time I broke a spoke. It's seriously been over 10 years. But I've got a buddy who insists on running butted spokes on his dh bike who breaks them regularly. Riding the same lines, the same speed literally following one another doing the exact same things. Equally burly rims. Everything has a breaking point. High tension and uniform spoke profiles offset that breaking point a little and throw the force somewhere else (like into the frame or blowing the rim). The reason butted spokes break AT the butting change is that they allow the entire wheel to deform to the point that something has to go.


    But canwilf's premise that spoke tension has everything to do with a perception in resonance between carbon and aluminum rims is just bs he's concocted in his head to try to 'win' some argument with me. He's never built wheels, he's never changed just the spokes in a set of wheels and seen the difference, and he's probably never even trued one of the damn things and seen the effect of any of this. Outside of some mavic and this particular set of enve prebuilts I've built every wheel I've ridden for the last 16 years. And I was building way more sensitive roadie wheels for years before that. But wheelbuilding experience aside, I regularly ride mountainbikes over 20mph over chunk. He's not doing that on a hardtail in vancouver. He has no idea just how different they really are.
    Besides the comet that killed the dinosaurs nothing has destroyed a species faster than entitled white people.-ajp

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    If they lost elasticity throughout that period then the movement was definitely not in the straight portions of the spokes. Steel doesn't change it's stiffness during yield; strength might change quite noticeably, but not stiffness.
    I never said it did. What I referenced was the entire system of the wheel and elasticity. Which if a spoke is stretching, that's contributing to that elasticity.


    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    I'm not disputing your observations, but I would guess that without your re-tensioning you would have broken some spokes in short order.
    Obviously. Or the rim would have gone in a spoke 'soft spot' where the spokes weren't there to support it. You have the keep a complex system like that even or it all goes to hell. Even used these things cost way too much. Fuck yeah I was terrified of screwing them up so I was on it. I know what I'm doing. Especially when it's expensive.

    On your notes about the two materials in a built up wheel sure everything changes. But your raw materials in that complete system matter. Otherwise everyone would be riding dh on 300g aluminum rims. A stiffer starting point is going to leave a stiffer final product when built similarly. And that was kind of my point. With these rims, I've been doing something I never would have previously........run butted spokes on a rear wheel on ANY bike. Because they really do add that much stiffness. That's nothing but rim.
    Last edited by kidwoo; 11-17-2014 at 10:58 PM.
    Besides the comet that killed the dinosaurs nothing has destroyed a species faster than entitled white people.-ajp

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo View Post
    I never said it did. What I referenced was the entire system of the wheel and elasticity. Which if a spoke is stretching, that's contributing to that elasticity.
    I was just laying background there, since it's something I expected you knew, with the point being that when we eliminate a change in the material stiffness we know the stiffness increase came from a change in shape, and since stretched round cylinders aren't stiffer we know the change must lie in the bends.

    Agreed, the materials and stiffness of the components matter, of course. But some portions of the discussion would seem to imply that they provide a very noticeable impact, when in reality balloon tires will mask a lot of small differences pretty well once those components are built up. How much is enough gets subjective.

  18. #93
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    Geek out all of you. I'm just saying, the chatter thing is Buddhist coffee.

    Unless you DH when you should Enduro.

    OH, MY GAWD! ―John Hillerman  Big Billie Eilish fan.
    But that's a quibble to what PG posted (at first, anyway, I haven't read his latest book) ―jono
    we are not arguing about ski boots or fashionable clothing or spageheti O's which mean nothing in the grand scheme ― XXX-er

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by puregravity View Post
    Just to throw in my experience ... after sporting 30mm wide ID rims, I don't see them as 'wide' anymore. If I were to buy again, the Ibis 37 ID ones would be my preferred choice. The wide rims with tubeless at low psi has been great. I've gone as low as 15 psi on wet days and had no problems. Unfortunately, some bikes just won't fit a wide rim combined with a high volume tire.
    it's like the first time trying a ski bigger than 90mm waist, you mean?

    hey alu rim fans, anyone use Spank Oozy Trail 295? pretty damned light, makes carbon rim choice look like it's all about nebulous ethereal "maybe better" stuff.

  20. #95
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    As rad as those Spank rims look, after a buddy of mine spent a short amount of time on some Pacenti rims, I'd be hesitant to get an untested lightweight rim that claims remarkable strength to weight ratios. My buddy basically put a new bend in both front and rear wheels about every other ride until he retired them about 3 months into their lifespan.
    This is why I'm digging the real life anecdotes from people who have guinea pigged the various rims and sampled their warranties.

  21. #96
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    one rider's experience with rim breaks/bends doesn't sway me much, a lot of people destroy wheels regularly and consider wheels as disposable as gloves or brake pads. I haven't put a rim ding/flat spot in a rim in over a decade, have taco'd a 29 wheel but that's what those big things tend to do

    for those who sing the praises of carbon rim rigidity/perpetual planar behavior, are decent carbon rims making your wheels snappier/truer/better than I9 wheels?

  22. #97
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    I've had good experiences with Spank. (Yea, I know how that sounds )
    I ran the Spike 35s on my DH bike this past year and they still look like new.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jer View Post
    After the first three seconds, Corbet's is really pretty average.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Malcolm View Post
    I mean, it's not your fault. They say talent skips a generation.
    But hey, I'm sure your kids will be sharp as tacks.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by puregravity View Post
    Geek out all of you. I'm just saying, the chatter thing is Buddhist coffee.
    And I'm saying your frame of reference is a lot smaller than people who are saying the opposite.

    So a carbon rim that tracks better, builds a stiffer wheel, that is pretty much incapable of deforming at the rim to any great degree without failing........somehow magically rides with the same compliance as an aluminum one.
    Besides the comet that killed the dinosaurs nothing has destroyed a species faster than entitled white people.-ajp

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by creaky fossil View Post

    for those who sing the praises of carbon rim rigidity/perpetual planar behavior, are decent carbon rims making your wheels snappier/truer/better than I9 wheels?
    Definitely. And the spokes even stay tight!
    Besides the comet that killed the dinosaurs nothing has destroyed a species faster than entitled white people.-ajp

  25. #100
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    Why does chatter matter? As much as I think the difference is minimal in meaningful ways, the singing tone of stiff rims is audible. But so what? Watch a triathlon go by and you'll hear huge differences, but the rims doing all that singing are narrow and deep: plenty strong enough radially to use minimal spokes, but the added rim weight is buying them aero, not resistance to the taco. To clarify: I don't expect to notice radial deflection on either type of rim. Show me a carbon rim that supports my weight when it's laid on it's side and I'm on board.

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