studless snow tire life expectancy ?

[Toadman]

So were stuck between tests run by manufacturers, sellers and DOT. The link I posted is from a university, not that they are impartial.

I don't loose anything running two sets. I get to run summer tires that would perform horribly in the winter and I get the best in the winter. I just hate winter tire zealots that want mandatory winter tires.

And again AustinFromSA, it not like all seasons stagnated for the past 20 years.

You also don't lose anything either. All seasons haven't come very far in the last 20 years. Sure, some marginal improvements in tread compounds, and some marginal improvements in tread design. But the best all season still leaves much to be desired in the one condition where it matters the most.

[MontuckyFried]

So were stuck between tests run by manufacturers, sellers and DOT. The link I posted is from a university, not that they are impartial.

I don't loose anything running two sets. I get to run summer tires that would perform horribly in the winter and I get the best in the winter. I just hate winter tire zealots that want mandatory winter tires.

And again AustinFromSA, it not like all seasons stagnated for the past 20 years.

Having just put on my winter rubber yesterday, and not being a paid tire company, I can impartially say that the differences are astounding. Just got several inches of snow. Yes, the snow tires are worlds better.

Now, I'm not suggesting we start MANDATING winter tires or anything, BUT it's on you when your Subaru goes careening into a ditch. I've rescued many a Subaru, and some of them with brand new all-seasons. Their helpless slides into the ditch/snow bank would not have happened with proper winter rubber. That's on them, though. Again, not suggesting we mandate them by law (at least in Montana). You should be free to have as slippery of a ride as you want. Not sure why you'd want a slippery drive, though. Probably got too expensive and cumbersome for Caltrans though to keep rescuing people, so I could see why they'd want to require certain equipment with the millions upon millions of people driving around over there.

[uglymoney]

Yep^

I was stuck in a 30 degree ice/snow storm here last weekend without snow tires but with good all seasons on our 4wd 4-Runner. What a nightmare. No comparison to driving on snow or ice tires where as a driver I am still firmly in command of my vehicle and able to avoid collisions with others with my traction advantage. Last week I was at the mercy of other drivers who were going too fast and watched other drivers fail to climb and then spin down hills ramming other cars.

Mandating snows in the US is just not practical. We are too poor and strung out.

[XXX-er]

They could do it by state which might make more sense, I'm guessing you don't need snowtires in florida but for dentist in colorado it might make sense ?

The year they mandated snowtires in Quebec there was a big run on snow tires, I know this cuz I needed to replace the Haks that year and fortunately I ordered/gotmine early something to remember if you get in that situ

[bodywhomper]

aren't they mandated in areas of Europe and Canada?

In the Sierra, CHP cruisers are equipped with studable tires, which have been studded. I've never seen a cruiser chained-up and seen them plenty of times doing their thing in chain control conditions.

[BCMtnHound]

This is what is required on select 'winter highways' in BC:



Minimum tread specs for both all season 'M&S' and true winters is also required by the regs.

[klauss]

Back on the studless tire train as just placed an order for Nokian R2s

[MrMan]

44,000 on my current set. I leave mine on year round as it isn't worth the money to swap them every spring and fall or to own a non winter set. They are all set for another year.

[Todd Zander]

44,000 on my current set. I leave mine on year round as it isn't worth the money to swap them every spring and fall or to own a non winter set. They are all set for another year.

yea lets all take the advice from a guy who doesn't buy insurance.

[Game Over]

Uhh false equivalence.

[Todd Zander]

how so

44k and theyre not shot? bullshit, they're been heat-cycled and dryrotted well beyond their life expectancy. The same guy who doesnt spend the $ on car insurance also doesnt see the benefit of a spare set of wheels.

[Game Over]

You have several very valid points. Attacking his insurance choices was not the strongest

[neufox47]

My friend has a pair of studded Hakka7s on his Xtera that were 45k deep over 7 seasons and still way better than all seasons and some snows.

[klauss]

nokians were pricey AF in the size I needed, but I wanted that taste on one vehicle before I leave this world

[doebedoe]

In 2014 when this thread was started there weren't many of the newer generation AT tires with 3PMSF rating on the market yet. Now there are many: the Duratrac, Coopers ATW, Falken AT3W.

I've got about 16k on my Falken AT3Ws running them year round in CO. I'd say I'm just over 50% of the way to their EOL as a snow tire -- i.e. ~30K as a year round tire before I'd want to replace them in the snow.

[klauss]

I've been running mountain snowflake ATs since I started driving and have had many of the variants. I think the requirement is still that the tire needs to have a traction index of 10% or greater to a reference tire to get the symbol. The AT 3PMSF tires work fine, but there is a huge difference between them and a studless snow tire with the softer compounds in snow/ice.

Summer tire = rental snowblade / bigfoot
M + S tire = custom rax
AT 3PMSF tire = rental ski
Studless snow = supergoat
Studded snow = worldcup GS ski

[galibier_numero_un]

@auvgeek's post #61 and the follow-up comments in this thread turned my thinking around with respect to studded tires:

https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...f-winter-tires.

Living in the Front Range means a lot of warm, dry days between jaunts up into the high country and I'd discounted the idea of studded tires until considering his logic.

As an aside (thinking studless here), given the dramatically superior usable tread life on Nokians (vs. Blizzaks), I fail to understand why someone would pour money into Blizzaks. I got 39K miles on my Hakkapeletas and always run them well into April and sometimes May (lots of hot pavement).

... Thom

[auvgeek]

^^Thanks, Thom.

I've been very happy with the Hakka 8 -- they're loads better in snow and especially ice than the Geolandar G015 (3PMSF-rated) that I own for 3-season use (change over when it's consistently over 65-70F around town). The AWD masks it when accelerating, but there's a huge difference in grip when braking and cornering.

For people who don't want to read the other thread, here's a study that's interesting: http://www.brunowessel.com/content/p...d_r_review.pdf

I found it interesting because the Hakka 8 outperformed (or was as good as) the R2 on ice, snow, wet, and dry pavement. If anyone knows of a newer study, I'd love to see it.

And the new Hakka 9 is supposed to be quite a bit better than the Hakka 8 -- Nokian kept the studs from the Hakka 8 for only the middle 1/3 of the tire and designed a different stud for use on the outer areas that's optimized for lateral grip. They also beveled the shoulder of the stud so it can penetrate deeper into ice. Plus added more siping for snow traction.

[PNWbrit]

how so

44k and theyre not shot? bullshit, they're been heat-cycled and dryrotted well beyond their life expectancy.

^ This.

[Sessiøn]

how so

44k and theyre not shot? bullshit, they're been heat-cycled and dryrotted well beyond their life expectancy. The same guy who doesnt spend the $ on car insurance also doesnt see the benefit of a spare set of wheels.

I do the same. I also have insurance. But I didn't notice any degredation in traction.

[klauss]

Thanks for linking that test. yeah I really wavered on studs vs. studless. I would have leaned studs if I were within 30 minutes from the snow zone I think. The shops also didn't carry em.

I had blizzak studless for a couple seasons a while back and thought they were great.

I do think studs cause excess wear on roads and the associated dust particles, but I make exceptions elsewhere so that linked test certainly is interesting. Also in oregon studs are legal 11/1 to 3/31. Probably could get away with them for that extra month in April when I encounter snow or just deal with my ATs.

[uglymoney]

On our 2002 Outback we have five seasons on my x-Ice-2's now and they still have good useable siped tread left but there usefulness as a snow tire definitely started degrading last year - though they still will get you out of any situation with tons of traction at slow speeds. Thinking about upgrading to the x-ice3's this year which have a 40k mile warranty...just not sure if my car will last long enough to take full advantage of a five year lifetime.

On our 2012 Prius V (wagon) we have two seasons on x-ice3's and they look about 1/3 worn. The Prius commutes 60 miles every single work day on mostly dry pavement. Problem around here is ice in the mornings with everybody driving on shit tires = junk show all winter.

Same Michelin XI3 snow tires going back on the Prius wagon this winter for their final season of usefullness. Car now closing on 120k still on original set of Michelin snow tires (Dec thru Mar) and original Yoko summer tires. They are wearing at roughly the same rate with the Yoko's getting 8 months and the Michelin snows 4 months. Brake pads are original as well...pretty sure the brake pads are going to 200k no problem.

2002 Subaru got third set of snow tires last winter 16/17. Yoko K2, Mich Xi2, now Mich Xi3. Xi3's still backed by 40k treadlife warranty. They look mostly new after last season...driven mostly on dry roads sadly with trips to Oootahh, Telluride, Arches (2600 miles), and Jackson (2500 miles) and lots of trips to our local ski hill.

Interestingly I have only ever bought one pair of summer tires for the 2002 Subaru and they are still going strong at 216k. The original Potenza's wore out really fast. Replaced with Yoko's. Yokohama sent me a letter recalling them after a few years for sidewall cracks that might show up and gave me a brand new set. I think I have one more summer left in them assuming the car keeps running.

[GeezerSteve]

As an aside (thinking studless here), given the dramatically superior usable tread life on Nokians (vs. Blizzaks), I fail to understand why someone would pour money into Blizzaks.

In my case neither Hakkas nor X-Ice are available in the correct size for my truck wheels (2017 Tundra). We've got X-Ice on the CX-5.

[auvgeek]

I do think studs cause excess wear on roads and the associated dust particles, but I make exceptions elsewhere so that linked test certainly is interesting. Also in oregon studs are legal 11/1 to 3/31. Probably could get away with them for that extra month in April when I encounter snow or just deal with my ATs.

I hear you on the road wear issue, but the Hakka 8/9 seems like a step in the right direction with the "eco stud" concept where the studs are cushioned from behind. I suspect studded tires often get a bad name (for road wear, noise, and dry/wet pavement handling) because people are more experienced with generic studded tires that are studded by some teenager instead of factory studded to the correct depth. I also hear you on heavy snows in the shoulder season -- that's one reason why we have 3PMSF-rated "summer" tires.

In my case neither Hakkas nor X-Ice are available in the correct size for my truck wheels (2017 Tundra). We've got X-Ice on the CX-5.

Nokian Hakka 8/9 SUV (and LT2) comes in 275/65R18 -- that'd work fine, no?

[klauss]

What size tundra wheels? I am putting these tires on tundra take off oem 18s. At least in that rim size, Nokian have the Hakka 9 SUV studded, Hakka R2 studless, and LT2 (studded option) in a 275/65/18

Thom, what hakks do you have?

The tire shop said they can get the Hakka 9 studded for $16 more per tire. Argh. decisions