Eccentric Leg Strengthening for Skiing

[::: :::]

Here's saying that the goal isn't so much to GET SWOLE, rather it's to avoid being swollen.

It’s one thing to just not get injured.
Is it not important to be strong on each side given the nature of the sport?
Seems like a stopoff on a continuum…

[rod9301]

Gen pop isn't exactly the target audience for this thread.



The title of this thread is a misnomer. Eccentric training for skiing has nothing to do with building muscle or developing strength. It's about using the Repeated Bout Effect to reduce your susceptibility to the specific type of muscle damage created by high levels of eccentric loading. That eccentric muscle damage can be downright crippling if you haven't trained for it.

Also, while strength is very important for skiing, being in "ski shape" is just as much about power and muscular endurance, but that's a discussion for the leg extensions thread

I don't do any eccentric leg training, just leg press and hamstring and butt training, heavy weights (for me) and i never have issues with muscles hurting.
Middle back muscles, yes, which I'm trying to fix with back extensions.

Not sure how this eccentric loading started, i believe from some trainers that need to be different.

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[muted reborn]

I don't do any eccentric leg training, just leg press and hamstring and butt training, heavy weights (for me) and i never have issues with muscles hurting.
Middle back muscles, yes, which I'm trying to fix with back extensions.

Not sure how this eccentric loading started, i believe from some trainers that need to be different.

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That's irrelevant if we don't know how or what you ski.

Do you ski 2000+ vert non stop in variable conditions at high speed and hit cliffs on your way down? if so, I would guess eccentric leg training is necessary to get into ski shape.

[Dantheman]

It’s one thing to just not get injured.
Is it not important to be strong on each side given the nature of the sport?
Seems like a stopoff on a continuum…

Strength is just one aspect of fitness that is important for skiing. And don't get me wrong, it's a very important aspect. If you can't or can barely squat your bodyweight for one rep getting stronger will help your skiing immensely. But, beyond a certain level getting stronger has diminishing returns.

Skiing is dominated by eccentric muscle contractions (contracting the muscle while it gets longer), it's basically a long series of "negatives." The muscle damage that causes muscle soreness occurs almost entirely during eccentric contractions. This same eccentric damage also dramatically reduces strength, muscular endurance (which is not to be confused with aerobic endurance/cardio, these are completely separate aspects of exercise physiology), and ROM. The repeated-bout effect is a well-established phenomenon in exercise physiology whereby muscle rather rapidly adapts to eccentric loading and the amount of damage to muscle fibers is dramatically reduced in subsequent bouts of similar activity, which results in far less soreness and loss of strength, ME, and ROM. Thus, on average, eliciting this effect pre-season substantially improves your ability ski hard and rack up vert early in the season (or, for those aren't able to ski frequently, when you are able to actually go skiing), and/or on consecutive days.

Also, building strength is a slow and tedious process while the RBE kicks in fast. If you've slacked off and have a ski trip coming up in a couple of weeks you'll get more benefit from a crash course of leg blasters than a traditional strength program (though ideally you'd do some of both).

That's irrelevant if we don't know how or what you ski.

Do you ski 2000+ vert non stop in variable conditions at high speed and hit cliffs on your way down? if so, I would guess eccentric leg training is necessary to get into ski shape.

Rod and the leg press = XXXer and Aquaseal.

IIRC, Rod is 70+. Now, at that age I'd say keep doing whatever is working for you. But, I'm also not going to give your opinion more weight than Rob Shaul's, especially when my own personal experience aligns with Rob's and those anecdotal experiences are well-supported by core principles of exercise physiology.

[::: :::]

Thx for that explanation, Dan

[east or bust]

x2 that was great.

From my personal experience there were a few times in my early 20s where I happened to go on some pretty huge hikes in the month(s) leading up to ski season and noticed a huge difference in what I perceived to be strength/stamina following said hikes. Maybe not a perfect example but thinks it checks out per the RBE?


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[muted reborn]

Thanks Dan. My personal experience: Last fall, I did a ton of steep hikes and then jogged down them. it took forever to be able to do it without pain ( I guess that was micro-tearing that never ended now I read your posts), because I was out of shape and elderly. But it worked out so well at the end, I felt in great shape for ski season. Also before that I had knee pain to a point I thought I may have to quit skiing - it completely went away and didn't come back after these hikes. A year later, the knee pain hasn't come back. I was simply REALLY out of shape, thats where the knee pain came from IMO.

I lost a ton of leg muscle mass thanks to lockdowns and life and I've read it happens when you become old, just in the last couple years, so I need to join a gym this fall.

[rod9301]

That's irrelevant if we don't know how or what you ski.

Do you ski 2000+ vert non stop in variable conditions at high speed and hit cliffs on your way down? if so, I would guess eccentric leg training is necessary to get into ski shape.

Not necessarily high speed, but yeah, 2,000 ft non stop at squaw, or steep couloirs in the pyrenees. You can look at my posts.

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[muted reborn]

Not necessarily high speed, but yeah, 2,000 ft non stop at squaw, or steep couloirs in the pyrenees. You can look at my posts.

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I don't need to, I'm sure you are a decent skier and what works for you is great, but irrelevant to many people. I don't think I need to explain this, do i?

[Dantheman]

From my personal experience there were a few times in my early 20s where I happened to go on some pretty huge hikes in the month(s) leading up to ski season and noticed a huge difference in what I perceived to be strength/stamina following said hikes. Maybe not a perfect example but thinks it checks out per the RBE?

Yep, checks out, especially if it was steep terrain with lots of vert.

It's important to note that all strength/resistance training elicits the RBE (unless you're doing some very specialized concentric-only exercises). The difference with skiing is that the volumes are huge compared to standard gym workouts. Reps/set schemes for strength workouts are typically 3x5 or 5x5, and hypertrophy workouts are more like 5-8x8-12, so 25-60ish reps on the high end. On a typical day alpine skiing you're going to make thousands of turns. That's why the large volumes in a Leg Blaster workout (350 reps for the standard 5x workout) or a long trail descent (thousands of steps) really shine for this purpose.

Thanks Dan. My personal experience: Last fall, I did a ton of steep hikes and then jogged down them. it took forever to be able to do it without pain ( I guess that was micro-tearing that never ended now I read your posts), because I was out of shape and elderly. But it worked out so well at the end, I felt in great shape for ski season. Also before that I had knee pain to a point I thought I may have to quit skiing - it completely went away and didn't come back after these hikes. A year later, the knee pain hasn't come back. I was simply REALLY out of shape, thats where the knee pain came from IMO.

I lost a ton of leg muscle mass thanks to lockdowns and life and I've read it happens when you become old, just in the last couple years, so I need to join a gym this fall.

Yes, after 40 you will lose 3-8% of your muscle mass every decade if you don't lift stuff, and this rate accelerates after 60-65. This is very well-established science. Join a gym, buy a couple heavy dumbbells, do burpees and body weight stuff, carry random heavy household objects up and down stairs. Hell, a bag of Tube Sand from Home Depot costs $5 and makes a great weight--I have one in my office right now.

Just find something, anything, that you are motivated to do and do it consistently. Another core principle of exercise physiology is that going from nothing to anything confers huge benefits. The benefits from all forms of exercise accrue on an inverted U-shaped distribution.

[zion zig zag]

Yes, after 40 you will lose 3-8% of your muscle mass every year if you don't lift stuff, and this rate accelerates after 60-65. This is very well-established science. Join a gym, buy a couple heavy dumbbells, do burpees and body weight stuff, carry random heavy household objects up and down stairs. Hell, a bag of Tube Sand from Home Depot costs $5 and makes a great weight--I have one in my office right now.

Just find something, anything, that you are motivated to do and do it consistently. Another core principle of exercise physiology is that going from nothing to anything confers huge benefits. The benefits from all forms of exercise accrue on an inverted U-shaped distribution.

At my age, this really hits home. My weightlifting workouts have been super uninspired for the last couple of years and I'm certainly not making any gains. I need to reinvigorate with some purpose. Maybe I'll start with tube sand!

That being said, I feel pretty fit for the things I enjoy outside, but I don't think I could keep up with old me in the sufferfest department (ie, alpine climbing).

[kootenayskier]

Thanks for the technical explanation Dan, makes a lot of sense. I’ll just keep carrying tools up and down mountains all summer, skiing all winter, yoga every morning. Seems to work.

[Iowagriz]

I'm sure that I could dig back, or use Google, but what exactly are leg blasters?

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[John_B]

I'm sure that I could dig back, or use Google, but what exactly are leg blasters?

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Awful. They are awful.

https://www.backcountry.com/explore/...-alpine-skiing

[billyk]

I hate lunges. I can’t imagine how much I would hate jumping lunges.

[Iowagriz]

Awful. They are awful.

https://www.backcountry.com/explore/...-alpine-skiing

Thank you

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[bodywhomper]

I hate lunges. I can’t imagine how much I would hate jumping lunges.

Y’all should get into tele skiing. Jumping lunges are kinda a normal thing on some days.

i'm in my mid-40's and been what i'd consider a hard charging tele skier since in was in my early/mid-20's. in my early 20's, i learned a long-form version of the tai chi chuan yang form. the form that i practice involves substantial leg stength and stregthening. when i've been on top of practicing tai chi chuan (3-7 times per week), i can hit the ground running (and charging) on tele skis w/o issues and can hot lap bell to bell multiple days in a row. I figured this out for myself when i was 23 or 24 and it remains true now, 25 years later. it's pretty cool! i struggle to find good research about the strengthening benefits of the form of tai chi chuan that i practice outside of research about elderly health and well-being. i've always been surprised about how explosive i can be as a rsult of doing slow eccentric and concentric(?) movements in a squat position. i'd like to add leg blasters to that routine and see how it goes. currently, i'm rehabbing a knee and following the PT's stabilization/strengthening exercises, though i'm going to bring up leg blasters in my next appt.

[old goat]

Eccentric exercise or eccentric anything else sounds perfect for tele skiers.

[billyk]

Y’all should get into tele skiing. Jumping lunges are kinda a normal thing on some days.

I’ve watched tele skiers. Looks like a lot more effort than fun. But I’m sure you guys are in much better shape than me.

[bodywhomper]

Don’t know until you go. Don’t let the blister jongs discourage you

[thefortrees]

Y’all should get into tele skiing. Jumping lunges are kinda a normal thing on some days.

i'm in my mid-40's and been what i'd consider a hard charging tele skier since in was in my early/mid-20's.

I thought it smelled like stale yogurt in here. Take a shower, cut the dreads, get a job, and click in your heels ya friggin bum.

[bodywhomper]

Lock the heels and standup like a man!

I don’t eat the yogurt (with chia) until I’m refueling at the car at the end of the day. Bars, nuts, water, and coffee are the fuel on the hill. On a good day, my breaks involve refilling little water bottle, getting more coffee, and sometimes dropping the kids off at the pool.

Saw a vid of somebody doing leg blasters with a weight vest on…. This is the way….(?)

[Danno]

Thanks for the leg blasters reminder. 1st mini set done, starting slow

[Stuntmonkey]

I am on the path for losing 15lbs pre-season, which isn't a terribly big deal for me. Leg blasters are a great addition to my normal routine, I'm throwing them in on active recovery days. Finally up to 4 sets of full in a session and boy it hurts.

Don't forget your barbell back squats for those who have no core (me) lol.

[Dantheman]

Jeezus, if you're doing LBs on "active recovery" days what do your on days look like?