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  1. #51
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    Setting a new record everyday, that has to be nice.

    Blue Bumps no bueno
    "knowledgeable in escapades of the flesh"

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
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    Thumbs up Eccentric training - only a piece of the puzzle

    For alpine skiing, eccentric muscle contractions have been shown to occur 2x as often as concentric contractions. Why this is unique is that its almost totally opposite of most sport related activities. That said, it's only one piece of what you need to consider when thinking about dry-land training for skiing. You need to also consider core strength and what is referred to as the whole "kinetic chain". To train the whole system you also need to add instability training to improve balance and strengthen the core. All power radiates from the core.

    You can download a free report on ski training by searching on the term CoreSkiing .

  3. #53
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    Nov 2007
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    http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/1...cover-injuries

    I will just leave this here. Also, for everyone trying the best exercises for skiing think about this , you ski on two legs on two different planes, so EXERCISE each leg on one plane, meaning ONE LEGGED EXERCISES, no one does them in the gym and watching try to pathetic, what do you think happens when you tear your acl? One leg gets isolated and you twist it. Learn to develop strength doing as many different one legged exercises are you can, then when BOTH legs fire at the same time, they are unstoppable.

  4. #54
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    I shouldn't have to say this, but don't try this at home. You can do a lot of damage with a tourniquet. (Plus I doubt the technique would do any good for training, as opposed to injury rehab.)

  5. #55
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    Nov 2007
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    Breckenridge
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    Yeah I am working with some PTS in Vail, they just got the machine. More and more PT offices are starting to get them for recovery.

  6. #56
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    from the studies I've seen, it works, but no better than heavy weights. Good for rehab when you cannot stress the joint or tendons.

  8. #58
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    Nov 2007
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    Breckenridge
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    I started KAATSU a week ago in Vail, I will report back once I prove everyone wrong. Thankfully its under my insurance.

  9. #59
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    Sep 2006
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    Been doing one legged strength and plyo workouts since the early 80's. Doesn't everybody do one legged workouts? Seriously in the track and field world this is old news. Ex high jumper, but we always worked both legs equally to avoid injuries to the non-dominant leg. Plus you might end up running in circles if one leg was so much stronger than the other! Glad the ski the world is finally catching on to some old training techniques that have been around for many decades.
    "We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch

  10. #60
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    Nov 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lineskinj View Post
    http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/1...cover-injuries

    I will just leave this here. Also, for everyone trying the best exercises for skiing think about this , you ski on two legs on two different planes, so EXERCISE each leg on one plane, meaning ONE LEGGED EXERCISES, no one does them in the gym and watching try to pathetic, what do you think happens when you tear your acl? One leg gets isolated and you twist it. Learn to develop strength doing as many different one legged exercises are you can, then when BOTH legs fire at the same time, they are unstoppable.
    Ha yeah well I live in a big ski town and now that i am rehabbing and in the gym everyday, its not as popular as you think, I still see people putting up their weight in squats in bad form. I have and always will continue to do one legged exercises to maintain rotational strength, because rotational strength comes from stable strength, pretty simple to understand.....but not to the masses.

  11. #61
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    Jan 2013
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    Northern BC
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    Once a week, I fill a backpack with rocks and go for a hike. Steepish trail with undulating and sinuous features. Does everything the Shaul's program purports to do but all at once. Combined with some running and lots of skiing (hill and touring), I feel I get plenty of eccentric leg conditioning. And you get the added bonus of not being a gym ramrod.

  12. #62
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    Sep 2010
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    After more reflection and training, I think heavy squats better prepare my legs for inbounds skiing than heavy eccentric exercises like leg blasters and rear-foot elevated split squats. I don't currently live near skiing, so I'm not able to get into shape by skiing: I have to show up ready to go. I shifted my focus from the quadzilla complex to squatting heavy this year, and I think it worked better. First real ski trip of the year, I skied 6/8 days with no soreness (and I only took the two days off because my boots need work and my feet were in pain). Compared to last year, I was far less sore.

    Leg blasters—specifically the jumping/scissor lunges, which I think are the most eccentric component of that complex—seem to target my glutes almost exclusively and squats definitely target my quads more, which are primarily what get sore when I ride lifts. Squats also really work my low back, which is another area that used to get sore early season. Finally, squats don't give me delayed-onset muscle soreness (DOMS) like the leg blaster/quadzilla complex, which allows me to train heavy a little more frequently.

    Single leg stuff is great, and I've started incorporating single-leg squats into my workout on a regular basis, but I don't think single-leg stuff can replicate the neuromuscular recruitment of a heavy squat. Even my pull-up strength went up after I started squatting heavy. I'm working on learning to snatch, but I find the movement is a little tough to learn without a coach, especially with a bad shoulder. Overhead squat is good, though it definitely works more core and upper back for me than legs.

    One more thought: I sometimes get pain on the lateral side of my lower leg after skiing many days in a row in plug boots. Like peroneous longus area. Nothing I've tried specifically targets that area. General leg strength definitely seems to help, but doesn't completely eliminate pain/soreness there after skiing a bunch. I'm going to try adding a single-leg balancing exercises to see if that makes a difference. Anyone else have experience with this?

    YMMV and all that.

    Edit: For context, I'm still on the House-Johnson text progression, but I lift 3x/week in the max strength phase, instead of 2x/week as suggested. I do a variation of Angle Parking's backpack of rocks for the main workout in the muscular endurance phase.
    Last edited by auvgeek; 01-23-2017 at 08:38 AM.
    "Alpine rock and steep, deep powder are what I seek, and I will always find solace there." - Bean Bowers

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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lineskinj View Post
    I started KAATSU a week ago in Vail, I will report back once I prove everyone wrong. Thankfully its under my insurance.

    Started KAATSU 3 weeks ago, on week 3 , 2times a week, still not walking, one crutch, noticeable difference in muscle definition, personally i think my muscles in the injured leg look very similar to my uninjured leg. 75 % weight bearing now, progress to walking next week. KAATSU is used for 20 minutes straight until fatigue. I feel like i could walk right now without a limp but I am abiding by Steadmans crutch rules. Will continue on twice a week through next two months and report back. Very unusual, my mind is confused as it thinks its lifting much more. Progressed to a 12 pound ankle weight on my Total Knee Extensions over a foam roller., which is baffling because most people get to 5 pounds and then start walking. Will report back in a few weeks.

    Overall, I think it is working and more clinics will start to get this soon.

  14. #64
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    Dec 2017
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    5
    So I started the original workout posted yesterday. I'm out of shape so I can't do it all but I figure you have to start somewhere.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by auvgeek View Post
    After more reflection and training, I think heavy squats better prepare my legs for inbounds skiing than heavy eccentric exercises like leg blasters and rear-foot elevated split squats. I don't currently live near skiing, so I'm not able to get into shape by skiing: I have to show up ready to go. I shifted my focus from the quadzilla complex to squatting heavy this year, and I think it worked better. First real ski trip of the year, I skied 6/8 days with no soreness (and I only took the two days off because my boots need work and my feet were in pain). Compared to last year, I was far less sore.

    Leg blasters—specifically the jumping/scissor lunges, which I think are the most eccentric component of that complex—seem to target my glutes almost exclusively and squats definitely target my quads more, which are primarily what get sore when I ride lifts. Squats also really work my low back, which is another area that used to get sore early season. Finally, squats don't give me delayed-onset muscle soreness (DOMS) like the leg blaster/quadzilla complex, which allows me to train heavy a little more frequently.

    Single leg stuff is great, and I've started incorporating single-leg squats into my workout on a regular basis, but I don't think single-leg stuff can replicate the neuromuscular recruitment of a heavy squat. Even my pull-up strength went up after I started squatting heavy. I'm working on learning to snatch, but I find the movement is a little tough to learn without a coach, especially with a bad shoulder. Overhead squat is good, though it definitely works more core and upper back for me than legs.

    One more thought: I sometimes get pain on the lateral side of my lower leg after skiing many days in a row in plug boots. Like peroneous longus area. Nothing I've tried specifically targets that area. General leg strength definitely seems to help, but doesn't completely eliminate pain/soreness there after skiing a bunch. I'm going to try adding a single-leg balancing exercises to see if that makes a difference. Anyone else have experience with this?

    YMMV and all that.

    Edit: For context, I'm still on the House-Johnson text progression, but I lift 3x/week in the max strength phase, instead of 2x/week as suggested. I do a variation of Angle Parking's backpack of rocks for the main workout in the muscular endurance phase.
    Like with most exercises, it may be best to have a balance in training. It is not should I squat heavy or do leg blasters, rather incorporate both. Leg blasters are a mostly plyometric and eccentric exercise. Heavy squats are strength.

    If your max strength was relatively low, then you could get a significant improvement from increasing it. The force to make a turn may have been 60% of your max previously, and now 30% if you doubled your squat. Once you hit 2 or 2.5x body weight, I doubt increases will improve your skiing any.

    Rather than do full olympic snatches, do narrow grip hang snatches. Far less weight, but way easier to learn and safer for the shoulder.

    https://youtu.be/anHVRQNzb-8

    A good workout program should include mobility, plyometrics / agility, power, strength and conditioning.
    Last edited by neufox47; 01-26-2018 at 09:15 PM.

  16. #66
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    Sep 2010
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    The way I handle the strength phase of the TFTNA program has evolved since that post from over a year ago. Additionally, my comments were more focused on the differences between the TFTNA max strength phase and the eccentric-loading prescribed by Mountain Athlete. Shaul created leg blasters to have an eccentric component, stating that training heavy squats (front, back, box), etc still left him sore for ski season. My point about the leg blasters specifically were that they seem to target my glutes much more than my quads. Both are important, but my quads are what get sore when riding lifts so I liked the fact that squats train those a bit more.

    But ultimately, you're right -- I had weak max strength in the seasons before I made that post. I'm seeing less of a transfer to skiing now that I can back squat 2-2.5x BW, as both you and Leavenworth Skier (in a different thread) suggested. I still squat heavy, but I incorporate additional exercises that focus on other parts of the speed-strength curve. (While doing loads of Zone 1 cardio, as per the House text.)

    My new favorite eccentric exercise (focusing on quads and trunk) is the drop snatch. I'm also about to start experimenting with banded squats. Uphill Athlete's freeride training plan programs "half squats rather than full squats because its range of motion is most similar to the range of motion when skiing." I don't love that because half-squats have less hip activation.. but it seems like banded squats would achieve a similar effect while retaining the hip activation of a full squat and increasing the eccentric component. But I haven't tried them yet, so I guess we'll see. I also like scissor/jumping lunges, depth drops, and other plyometrics.

    That video of the narrow-grip hang power snatch seems very awkward. The bar is very far away from her body, there's no hip contact with the bar, she's jumping high and slamming her feet down, she pulling the bar overhead rather than pulling herself under the bar...why are all those things supposed to be better than the regular hang snatch? Think I'll stick with the Klokov drop snatch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ts5essXg1Bc) and continue to work on the snatch. (I'd have it down except I had to take a bunch of time off this year for various reasons.)

    TFTNA has only a max strength phase and a muscular endurance phase -- there is no phase for plyometrics, agility, etc. Skiers who want to also move quickly uphill need to figure out how to incorporate additional exercises into the training. For me, it's been a big experiment since I don't have access to a coach.

    Aside: I solved my lower-leg issue (was actually tendonitis) with targeted strengthening of muscles used for ankle eversion using a high-resistance theraband.
    Last edited by auvgeek; 01-27-2018 at 12:02 PM.
    "Alpine rock and steep, deep powder are what I seek, and I will always find solace there." - Bean Bowers

    photos

  17. #67
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    I had the same lower leg pain, and I my case, calf raises helped the following season.

    Re eccentric loading because legs hurt the first day of skiing.

    Eccentric loading tears the muscles. Similar to running downhill, my quads hurt the day after. However the next time I run downhill, they are ok, providing not too much time elapsed.

    There is a difference between being strong enough to ski well, squats with heavy weights, and prevent some of the first day soreness, which is helped by plyometrics.

    I wouldn't worry to much about the delayed onset soreness, it's not due to being strong or not.

    Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using TGR Forums mobile app

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    There is a difference between being strong enough to ski well, squats with heavy weights, and prevent some of the first day soreness, which is helped by plyometrics.
    I'm talking about being strong enough to ski hard riding lifts for 7-10 days in a row and/or skin 5-7k vf for a 3-4 days in a row, as my first time skiing/skinning that season. That's often my current situation so that's what I train for.

    I understand the point of eccentric exercises. I'm just saying I think there are more skiing-specific exercises than leg blasters, which seem to target my glutes pretty exclusively. I'm starting to really like the drop snatch, which IMHO feels remarkably similar to dropping a cliff and landing a bit backseat. It's eccentric, speed-oriented, and requires trunk strength.

    Tried eccentric calf loading -- it did nothing for me. It was tendinitis of the peroneal muscles, and was fixed with eccentric and progressive concentric strengthening of the eversion muscles with different resistance therabands.
    "Alpine rock and steep, deep powder are what I seek, and I will always find solace there." - Bean Bowers

    photos

  19. #69
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
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    3
    Adding BOSU ball exercises to core training and lunges can really help! Also, didn’t start the leg blasters early enough this year to get the most benefit so next year I’ll start earlier.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by e221b View Post
    Adding BOSU ball exercises to core training and lunges can really help! Also, didn’t start the leg blasters early enough this year to get the most benefit so next year I’ll start earlier.
    We'll see.
    One thing that's important, especially as people get older, is warming up. You go from car to lift and do a tough run and the arterioles in your leg muscles aren't dilated yet and your heart rate and cardiac output haven't increased, so you wind up with an oxygen debt that's tough to overcome. As I get older I find that it takes longer and longer for my heart rate to max out and for my leg arteries to open up. Unfortunately the opportunities to warm up at a ski area are somewhat limited--I suppose if you get there early enough you could walk stairs or walk up and down a hill, but for most people warming up means skiing easy runs for a while. On a powder day, if you do get to the hill early enough what are you going to do--warm up or get in line? So do I warm up on powder days? You're kidding, right?

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    We'll see.
    One thing that's important, especially as people get older, is warming up. You go from car to lift and do a tough run and the arterioles in your leg muscles aren't dilated yet and your heart rate and cardiac output haven't increased, so you wind up with an oxygen debt that's tough to overcome. As I get older I find that it takes longer and longer for my heart rate to max out and for my leg arteries to open up. Unfortunately the opportunities to warm up at a ski area are somewhat limited--I suppose if you get there early enough you could walk stairs or walk up and down a hill, but for most people warming up means skiing easy runs for a while. On a powder day, if you do get to the hill early enough what are you going to do--warm up or get in line? So do I warm up on powder days? You're kidding, right?
    I noticed that it takes longer for my heart rate to go up, but how does it feel when the leg arteries take a long time to open?

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  22. #72
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    Oct 2018
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    Reviving this thread because I was trying to think of ways to eccentrically train my legs without the impact of plyometrics. One thought I had would be to do one legged pistol squats (maybe weighted) lowering down, and then raising back up with both legs. Also might have the benefit of working single leg stability as well?

  23. #73
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    Leg extensions are where it’s at.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by hifno View Post
    Reviving this thread because I was trying to think of ways to eccentrically train my legs without the impact of plyometrics. One thought I had would be to do one legged pistol squats (maybe weighted) lowering down, and then raising back up with both legs. Also might have the benefit of working single leg stability as well?
    That will work, but you may want to wear a backpack with weights to get your legs stronger. Raise on both legs, lower on one.

    You can do the same with a leg extension machine, lift a heavy weight with both legs, lower with both, but only 30 degrees because of knee stress.

    But generally, you should account exercises that involve one joint only, like leg extensions.

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  25. #75
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    Nov 2018
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    Typing as a man whose knees are currently in pieces, I suggest stretching as much as you left. It will help to prevent self-imposed-knee-implossions....

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