193 Cochise v. 190 Q-Lab v. ~190....

[Christopher3000]

I haven't had a long, stiff, midfat ski since my last pair of 189 B-Squads exploded in february of 2012; in the meantime I've used a Salomon Rocker 115 and a Nordia Girish, both have left a lot to be desired. R115 has way too little tip and is a little too wide for everyday at a ski area in my book, and Girish was a very strange combinition of being full of metal while having absolutely no balls whatsoever.

So, I'm interested in a 105-110mm, ~190cm ski, with a stiff, flat tail and a traditional mounting point, for every day hard skiing in LCC. I have been drawn to the Q-Lab because I like the shorter turning radius and the camber, but the centered mount point has kept me from deciding to get it. I've never mounted a ski anywhere but on the line and I would prefer to stand on my skis where the designers intended...superstitious, I know, but I also accept the concept of how forward-mounted skis are supposed to ski, and I just don't ski that way.

This has me more interested in the Cochise, which is more attractive now because it has a touch of camber and because it got a little softer. The Blizzard stuff is clearly designed for skiers who prefer having more tip in front of their toepeice. The flex on the new Cochise feels perfect--it seems as though the ski might be easier to press into a lower speed turn.

But, the amount of tip rocker in both these skis has me a little turned off; on harder snow, long tips that aren't in contact with the snow feel like a liability, whereas tips that are in contact with the snow can be engaged at the top of the turn, providing much more control. Perhaps what I miss most about my B-Squads was that feeling of a positive turn initiation, rather than just having to position the ski to hook up and waiting for it to do so until the tips are across the fall-line.

...I think my ideal ski would be the cochise, with the turning radius of the Q-Lab, and %30 less tip rocker.

I guess the essential question for this comparison is: do I want to turning radius of the Qlab more than the traditional mounting point of the Cochise? What else is there for a long, stiff ski at ~108mm in the waist?

[Island Bay]

As the Cochise doesn't have any real tip taper, a lot of the tip should engage as soon as the ski is laid on edge. Haven't skied them, though, so I'm just taking an educated guess.

Otherwise you could look at the new DPS 105, or the Kingswood Archetype; camber, minimal tip rocker. The Kiwi dollar is going to take a substantial hit in the not too distant future, I'm guessing, and Kingswood do have free shipping deals from time to time.

Good luck

[Altaholic]

I would go for the 194 (only length) Salomon El Dictator (134-114-124, flat tail, 300 mm of rocker & designed by Cody Townsend/Kai Zackerdon) I saw a 'buy it now' for $320 shipped on eBay. I think the Salomon Quest is a softer version of the El Dictator.

I love mine for a daily driver. I like it it so much, I just bought a second pair for whenever my first sets dies or fades away. The ski was only made in the '10-'11 & '11-'12 winters, they are 86ed. Salomon rep Rick Armstrong said it was too stiff/big for the masses even though it was an amazing ski. The Rocker2 was way a more profitable ski, because more people could ski it. Salomon went with profits.

I love skiing my El Dictator in variable conditions in Jackson, it sends & stomps stuff no matter what. I guess I am biased. I can't ski my 196 4Frnt Renegades everyday as much as I want to.

[prsboogie]

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...d.php?t=279850

[gregL]

Have you skied these two skis or are you just going off of the specs? Even with the shorter radius and forward mount point, I thought the 183 Q-Lab was more sluggish to initiate turns than the 185 Cochise (softer 2015 version). YMMV.

FWIW, if I owned most of the wider Salomon skis (R2 122, Q-115, R2 108 for example) I would be inclined to mount them -2 or so regardless of where the guys in Annecy draw the recommended line.

[Altaholic]

RMU makes solid skis, know a few guys in the Village that ride them & enjoy them.

Those El Dictators are undrilled, here is the link for it: http://m.ebay.com/itm/370916393340?nav=SEARCH. If it was an auction with bids, I would not post it, but it is a 'buy it now' only, it has been up for a while now & the price is fairly solid. Someone buy them so I don't hoard another set of Dictators in reserve. I love going all the way up to '11' on those daily drivers.

[tsk01]

Have to agree that El Dictators sound like a perfect option from what you've described above - stiff, flat tail, appropriate width and a traditional mount point, and less rocker then both the Q-Lab and the Cochise.

Also consider some 191 Katana's. Try and find 2014 or older the 'regular' Katana not the V-Werks. Traditional mount, flat tail, stiff, and a super low rocker so you don't have to worry about the tips not engaging. I'm sure you could find some on eBay..

[abraham]

50 bucks for a pretty clean pair of 189 squads. I have them and am visiting slc in two weeks

[snowaddict91]

There were a pair of el dictators at second tracks in millcreek for around 200 yesterday. Decent shape and I think one set of holes. Also another ski to consider is the icelantic seeker, but I think the turning radius in the 190 is ~40m, so maybe not what you are looking for. Fun, bomber ski for hauling ass.

[Lindahl]

ON3P Viciks or the newer Wrenegade 102s would be good options - they run long, so they're about 2-3cm longer, about 189 in most manufacturer's sizes.

[trex_9]

I'm not affiliated with these guys in any way but they did a review with plenty of the same like-minded skis that you referenced above and i thought the write-ups were pretty well thought out.

http://earlyups.com/earlyups-test-sessions/

[westoxified]

el dictators were horrible skis. no idea why these things seem to have a cult following. especially shitty if you like to turn. also, why is DPS even mentioned in this thread?

FYI, the Q LAB mounting point changed from the early batch. all 190s were brought back 19mm for production. I guess Annecy stopped trying to be so progressive.

hard to imagine a better ski for what you describe.

[SUPERIOR]

187 or 192 belafontes ... Amazing ski for hard pack and crud snow. Check the blister gear reviews

[Lindahl]

Armada Invictus also would hit the mark, I'd think.

[Bandit Man]

Have you skied these two skis or are you just going off of the specs?

OP - you really need to demo something other than the Girish in this category to get beyond the spec-comparo web-jockey phase.

I'm surprised no one asked you about height, weight, skiing background, etc. We get you owned B-Squads, but you other two choices since and the fact that you endured them that long lose you some points.

If you had skied any of the previous years of a ski like the Cochise, (they have been around for three season now) you would be much better equipped to amswer your own question.

Buy a Cochise...you'll be fine. OR Buy a Q-Lab...you'll be fine. Then come back and tell us what you learned, not what you think from reading specs, inspecting camber and taper profiles, and hand flexing skis.

[Beast_Coast]

I;m in the same market

Invictus, Q-Lab, Cochise, Supernatural 108 seem to be the players

I'm leaning towards the Supernatural 108, but I wish they made it in 190+

[tenB]

For what you're describing and want for a mount further back, the Cochise seems like the natural fit. I ski the 193s and mount them +1.5 fwiw. Most recent solly skis I've mounted -2 and been happy. I haven't skied the '15 Cochise but have skepticism that softer will make them better. They're very easy skis to turn and can smear and shut down speed easily.

[allTandA]

^^^ this guy knows stuff. Cochise is a fun one

[Christopher3000]

OP - you really need to demo something other than the Girish in this category to get beyond the spec-comparo web-jockey phase.

I'm surprised no one asked you about height, weight, skiing background, etc. We get you owned B-Squads, but you other two choices since and the fact that you endured them that long lose you some points.

If you had skied any of the previous years of a ski like the Cochise, (they have been around for three season now) you would be much better equipped to amswer your own question.

Buy a Cochise...you'll be fine. OR Buy a Q-Lab...you'll be fine. Then come back and tell us what you learned, not what you think from reading specs, inspecting camber and taper profiles, and hand flexing skis.

I am tall and skinny, with a voluminous scrotum, and I ski 150 days a year.

The Girish was the only ski I have owned so far that I a) did not ski first and b) absolutely hated, and almost everything else I end up liking unequivocally, with the exception of the 115's which I demoed on a pow day and have found to be an akward everyday option. I may go out on a limb this season because both skis come well reccomended by trusted individuals--although no one has skied both--and the skis I've owned lately have left me wanting something...demanding. At the end of the day, there aren't too many skis out there that suck, most of them are very good in at least some conditions, and if you ski something for long enough and you don't like it either you suck or you really drew the short straw.

B Squads were a dime a dozen in LCC BTW ~2007 and 2012--if your skis shit the bed, there was always a pair or at least a single in the locker room, the hallway, etc; kind of like the can of campbells chunky soup you keep in the pantry but don't eat until you're absolutely desperate. I particularly liked to ski them early season, as they were worth no money whatsoever and they made a man out of you by the middle of Decemeber. The 191 was a fun hard snow ski but the giant wood core, camber, torpedo tip + shorter radius made them cumbersome in pow; the 189, with its 41 m radius, had an incredible pivot/skid and despite being inflexible actually had quite a lot of snap due the foam core.

I have skied an awful lot of skis, including a 185 cochise, and I find I like the damp, heavy skis better in the longer lengths--having the contact points further apart makes the sweet spot easier to access.

[Skidog]

I would go for the 194 (only length) Salomon El Dictator (134-114-124, flat tail, 300 mm of rocker & designed by Cody Townsend/Kai Zackerdon) I saw a 'buy it now' for $320 shipped on eBay. I think the Salomon Quest is a softer version of the El Dictator.

I love mine for a daily driver. I like it it so much, I just bought a second pair for whenever my first sets dies or fades away. The ski was only made in the '10-'11 & '11-'12 winters, they are 86ed. Salomon rep Rick Armstrong said it was too stiff/big for the masses even though it was an amazing ski. The Rocker2 was way a more profitable ski, because more people could ski it. Salomon went with profits.

I love skiing my El Dictator in variable conditions in Jackson, it sends & stomps stuff no matter what. I guess I am biased. I can't ski my 196 4Frnt Renegades everyday as much as I want to.

Nope i'd agree you're pretty dead on with the El Dictator. I skied it a few days...serious charger. gotta keep the fuck on top of that ski. WAY too burly for the masses. No sense in pressing skis for the few guys who dig that kinda ski. Solid ski though without question. I don't know that I could ski that ski everyday without being way too tired..im old and don't ski so well though so..

[adrenalated]

Said it before, will say it again: there is not a better ski in the all-around charger category than the new 186cm ON3P Wrenegade 112. It has the perfect blend of edgehold, ease of smearing the tail when needed, power, yet just enough forgiveness. The Wren 102, while it looks like a great ski, is quite a bit softer and just not the same ski as the 112. I also believe Scott mentioned he is going to do a small run of 191cm Wrens this fall as well if you really want the extra length.

I've skied a few of the other skis mentioned here - Cochise, Katana, Belafontes. I just don't love the flat/reverse camber of the Cochise and Katana on firm snow. They're great skis but just not as precise as the Wren on hardpack, at least for me. The Belafonte (older versions, before the redesign this year) was also a great ski, though a touch softer than the Wren and perhaps a bit less refined (for lack of better word).