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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    For me, the economics of sledding is to ride a new sled every year. These things depreciate more than any other motorized toy out there. Pay it upfront and ride the latest and greatest with no worries. Find a dealer who isnt a scumbag and understands what you're plan is and you probably will only pay $2k a year to spring order and trade in every year. Thats about the same as the depreciation and you dont have to deal with a ticking time bomb to pawn off on someone else down the road. Not only that, but the technology changes so drasticly every other year, so if you get caught holding too long, you basicaly have an obsolete turd sitting in your driveway that's not worth shit. Why do that to yourself!? Its so obvious its painful to watch people riding around on stinky turds.
    Technology stays the same for 3-4 years, they just like to make you think it's new and shiny. You can get the t motion upgrade kit for a couple hundred bucks to make your 2010-2013 the same as a 2014, 2015 or whatever. In essence the XM is more or less the XP with a flexing track, t motion kit and narrower stance (a-arm kit). XM will be the same for another year or two before they come out with the new platform. The core of the engine/frame/tunnel don't really change for at least 4+ years. Ptek engine was 07-2011 (and they still make Pteks in sport models) and them Etec 2011 onwards - 2015+ for engines. Even with jumping, 2 years is definitely do-able. With high mileage, I wouldn't keep more than 3. I figure the sleds have about 10,000km of chassis wear on them before it's time to put lassie to pasture. I only put 3,000km on my sled last season and no damage, so I held on to it for another year. If you're learning and crashing I guess you're putting a lot of wear and tear and it might be smart to trade out earlier if you've done a lot of chassis damage, it's the tensile strength in the aluminum that goes, in the tunnel, running boards, drop out brackets, s module, etc. Once that happens you might as well write it off. No amount of bracing will stop 'em from crumpling and a tunnel is like $1800 for the part at 12 hrs of labor if you know what you're doing.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoNads View Post
    Technology stays the same for 3-4 years, they just like to make you think it's new and shiny. You can get the t motion upgrade kit for a couple hundred bucks to make your 2010-2013 the same as a 2014, 2015 or whatever. In essence the XM is more or less the XP with a flexing track, t motion kit and narrower stance (a-arm kit). XM will be the same for another year or two before they come out with the new platform. The core of the engine/frame/tunnel don't really change for at least 4+ years. Ptek engine was 07-2011 (and they still make Pteks in sport models) and them Etec 2011 onwards - 2015+ for engines. Even with jumping, 2 years is definitely do-able. With high mileage, I wouldn't keep more than 3. I figure the sleds have about 10,000km of chassis wear on them before it's time to put lassie to pasture. I only put 3,000km on my sled last season and no damage, so I held on to it for another year. If you're learning and crashing I guess you're putting a lot of wear and tear and it might be smart to trade out earlier if you've done a lot of chassis damage, it's the tensile strength in the aluminum that goes, in the tunnel, running boards, drop out brackets, s module, etc. Once that happens you might as well write it off. No amount of bracing will stop 'em from crumpling and a tunnel is like $1800 for the part at 12 hrs of labor if you know what you're doing.
    Try a Freeride if your Summit is folding.....problem solved....

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by teamdirt View Post
    Try a Freeride if your Summit is folding.....problem solved....
    FYI, tunnel is the same thickness on a freeride as a summit. Same with the S-module, the only difference is 2 minor braces that attach A-arms to S-module. Freeride is wider running boards, different shocks, bars, and ski width/geometry. I rode a 137" freeride for 3 years and put 9,000km on it. Still folded in the same spots. I recommend CFR tunnel stiffeners, super cheap and easy to install, well worth it. Also grip n' rip A-arm upper/lower + s-module bracing kit. TBH - you might as well just buy a summit and add your own customized bars, risers, skis, shocks and dial it in yourself.

  4. #29
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    Take GoNads advice, this thread is done (seriously, dead nuts on with everything she has posted in this).

  5. #30
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    Mechanicly speaking you may be right, Nads, but economicly speaking, it just doesnt make sense to hold these things for more than a year or two, regardless of condition. You lose $ exponentialy every year you ride the sled. You will never see a return on $ spent modifying or upgrading an older model. Pretty much just throwing it away. Its far more expensive to own and maintain the same sled for 3-4 yrs than just roll em over every year.
    Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. -Helen Keller

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    Mechanicly speaking you may be right, Nads, but economicly speaking, it just doesnt make sense to hold these things for more than a year or two, regardless of condition. You lose $ exponentialy every year you ride the sled. You will never see a return on $ spent modifying or upgrading an older model. Pretty much just throwing it away. Its far more expensive to own and maintain the same sled for 3-4 yrs than just roll em over every year.
    I know you will never see a return on modding or upgrading a sled, but there are things that need to be done to these machines to ensure they survive even 1 winter intact. (ie: tunnel stiffeners, especially if using a ski rack, grip and rip braces for A-arms, unless you enjoy 1500$ s module repair bills, heavy duty bumper, rail stiffeners etc). That gets expensive to do every season. I figure ~2 years is a pretty good turnaround, especially if you don't do much accumulated damage to component parts. Would agree with you though, more than 3 years at high mileage is asking for trouble with a capital T and you will spend more in repairs and maintenance than the depreciation costs annual. In a perfect world with unlimited funds, yearly sounds great, but every 2 years is still pretty do-able and makes sense. For me, I spent hours uncrating and doing bars/risers/shocks/braces/reinforcements/heavy duty bumper etc and the thought of having to spent 20-30+hrs every year just reinforcing a new machine is blaaaaaaaaaah (even though the parts are free, it's a TON of labor and time....) I hate swapping bars out, but stock bars are garbage and snap so easily. Same thing for tunnel stiffeners, rail stiffeners, braces, I wouldn't even ride a sled without half those things. I see so many destroyed S modules early season, those grip and rip braces are sooooo key, along with everything else. Small cost, but the preventative benefit far outweighs the repair bill.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoNads View Post
    FYI, tunnel is the same thickness on a freeride as a summit. Same with the S-module, the only difference is 2 minor braces that attach A-arms to S-module. Freeride is wider running boards, different shocks, bars, and ski width/geometry. I rode a 137" freeride for 3 years and put 9,000km on it. Still folded in the same spots. I recommend CFR tunnel stiffeners, super cheap and easy to install, well worth it. Also grip n' rip A-arm upper/lower + s-module bracing kit. TBH - you might as well just buy a summit and add your own customized bars, risers, skis, shocks and dial it in yourself.
    Let me correct myself-2014-15 Freeride has twice the metal on the tunnel and is completely double welded. No stiffeners required. Basically the ultimate tandeming ski machine to date. Not to mention the wider tunnels are a dream when it comes to tandeming on the T-motion with your buddy.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by teamdirt View Post
    Let me correct myself-2014-15 Freeride has twice the metal on the tunnel and is completely double welded. No stiffeners required. Basically the ultimate tandeming ski machine to date. Not to mention the wider tunnels are a dream when it comes to tandeming on the T-motion with your buddy.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the tunnel thickness is exactly the same on the Summit XM model as the Freeride model, from what the website indicates and what I have seen first hand and what the local dealers say. Can take a peek at part numbers on BRP's website. You can turn a Summit into a way better version of a freeride for far less than the difference in cost. The difference in a freeride to summit is that the shocks are different, the bars are different, the brackets attaching the tunnel to the skid are different, there is a 50$ stiffener that comes stock on freerides that goes running boards to tunnel to beef up the boards)there is the rail stiffener stock (it's a 15$ part that takes 5 mins to install) and the S module has reinforcement brackets (comes on 600 race sleds), with a wider ski stance and wider running boards. The wider running boards can also be a problem sometimes as your machine is more likely to get stuck as it high centers easier than the narrower ones, it's a lot of rider preference though, and depends on if you don't mind doing the add-ons yourself or would rather just buy it complete. A lot of people prefer to upgrade to better bars/risers/shocks than what the freeride comes with. Whistler is pretty much a sled-skiing mecca and the majority of machines used around here are beefed up Summits. It pretty much boils down to front end geometry preference, do you like the narrower or wider front end, and do you like the wider boards. Everything else that comes on a freeride you can add to a summit. For $1500 price difference a lot of people prefer to do it themselves.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoNads View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the tunnel thickness is exactly the same on the Summit XM model as the Freeride model, from what the website indicates and what I have seen first hand and what the local dealers say. Can take a peek at part numbers on BRP's website. You can turn a Summit into a way better version of a freeride for far less than the difference in cost. The difference in a freeride to summit is that the shocks are different, the bars are different, the brackets attaching the tunnel to the skid are different, there is a 50$ stiffener that comes stock on freerides that goes running boards to tunnel to beef up the boards)there is the rail stiffener stock (it's a 15$ part that takes 5 mins to install) and the S module has reinforcement brackets (comes on 600 race sleds), with a wider ski stance and wider running boards. The wider running boards can also be a problem sometimes as your machine is more likely to get stuck as it high centers easier than the narrower ones, it's a lot of rider preference though, and depends on if you don't mind doing the add-ons yourself or would rather just buy it complete. A lot of people prefer to upgrade to better bars/risers/shocks than what the freeride comes with. Whistler is pretty much a sled-skiing mecca and the majority of machines used around here are beefed up Summits. It pretty much boils down to front end geometry preference, do you like the narrower or wider front end, and do you like the wider boards. Everything else that comes on a freeride you can add to a summit. For $1500 price difference a lot of people prefer to do it themselves.
    I stand corrected- after reviewing Hicks post and cross referencing it to yours i've determined there just isn't enough pow days in a season even if your Summit or Freeride can take you to them. Thats why we are all jonesing....
    Last edited by teamdirt; 10-02-2014 at 09:34 PM.

  10. #35
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    and then there is my old 2006 rt1000 still going strong no matter how hard I give it to her ...

    11,000 miles ... yes miles ... over 9000 miles on motor. spent almost nothing on her last year.

    sure I wrenched on her, but I like wrenching, its my happy place ...

    not everyone can afford new ...

    $2500 and you've got a sled that will get you out there and have fun ...
    We, the RATBAGGERS, formally axcept our duty is to trigger avalaches on all skiers ...

  11. #36
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    SkiDoo Summit all the way. The bigger the better. Judge the person that you are buying it from. If they seem like a sled abuser, watch out. No one likes a sled abuser.

    -BOV
    @blackopsvaldez

  12. #37
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    http://www.ski-doo.com/showroom/free...46-154/details

    Highlighted areas are what is different on the Freeride. Same tunnel, it would not be cost effective to make one different run of tunnels for 1 model of sled. PM Norona if you are really curious about the differences as he is a BRP rep.

  13. #38
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    I know a couple of you guys mentioned a Yamaha is too heavy for a ski sled but would you even consider a 2006 Apex Mountain. 4 stroke 1,000 CC. The 4 stroke will be heavier and less powerful I assume but should be more reliable right?

    What is it about sled skiing that makes the Yamaha too heavy? Just riding tandem? My plan would be to use it to access the bottom of the hill so I can skin up, not climb mountains with two on the sled and two dragging behind.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by GPP33 View Post
    What is it about sled skiing that makes the Yamaha too heavy?
    The weight

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by GPP33 View Post
    I know a couple of you guys mentioned a Yamaha is too heavy for a ski sled but would you even consider a 2006 Apex Mountain. 4 stroke 1,000 CC. The 4 stroke will be heavier and less powerful I assume but should be more reliable right?

    What is it about sled skiing that makes the Yamaha too heavy? Just riding tandem? My plan would be to use it to access the bottom of the hill so I can skin up, not climb mountains with two on the sled and two dragging behind.
    With my first sled that was the goal, just get somewhere on a road then start skinning. The problem is that almost all the terrain right off the trail will already be shredded by sleds. Being able to boondock a bit to get off the beaten track will help you find better terrain....maybe.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadam View Post
    and then there is my old 2006 rt1000 still going strong no matter how hard I give it to her ...

    11,000 miles ... yes miles ... over 9000 miles on motor. spent almost nothing on her last year.

    sure I wrenched on her, but I like wrenching, its my happy place ...

    not everyone can afford new ...

    $2500 and you've got a sled that will get you out there and have fun ...
    You sir are the exception. Sure, if you have the know how, time, tools and a shop, then you can keep just about anything running strong. I still would argue for anyone looking to get 50 plus days a season of hard mtn riding and sled ski tandoming to consider buying new (even if you have to finance it) and then rolling it over every other year. With the tax savings on trade in and throwing a pile of cash at the the loan in the 1st year or 2, the initial amount is paid off quickly and then your only cost, sledwise, every season is the differential on the new ride. And that cost, in my opinion, is just the cost of snowmobiling; whether thats your time spent wrenching or paying the guy at Revolution or pow days missed because the sleds broken or whatever the nightmare may be, you will have some cost associated with riding a snowmobile. Mind you, just running it up a groomed trail and then relying on an already beaten track "for access" everytime you head out is kind of boring and not really demanding on the sled, so yeah, someone could get away with buying a beater if thats all they did.

    The bottom line is that most folks who buy a $2500 sled for mtn pow riding are going to end up dumping significant time or money into it to get 50 plus days in every season. For relatively the same cost, you get a sled with warranty that will always be worth almost as much as you have into it at the end of the year. The only catch is having $10k tied up in a sled, so you MUST have it insured! It also helps to have a local dealer who sells high volume give you a screaming deal because he sees your new sled as his next years used sled inventory and thats where he makes his profits.
    Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. -Helen Keller

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by teamdirt View Post
    The weight
    Thanks that's helpful

    A quick google search indicated they really aren't much if any heavier than an 800cc 2 stroke with a similar setup (elec start, reverse, etc). Is it just that most skiers forgo these options in the name of weight savings with the 2 strokes?

    I'd also assume the monstrous 162 track would help bear that load or is too much of it on the skies?

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by GPP33 View Post
    Thanks that's helpful

    A quick google search indicated they really aren't much if any heavier than an 800cc 2 stroke with a similar setup (elec start, reverse, etc). Is it just that most skiers forgo these options in the name of weight savings with the 2 strokes?

    I'd also assume the monstrous 162 track would help bear that load or is too much of it on the skies?
    Yamaha not publishing the weight might give you an idea of where they sit.
    Google tells me that a Nytro comes in at about 560lbs dry, Summit X 460lbs & RMK Pro 425lbs. The two stroke manufacturers aren't afraid to publish the weight and they can be lightened up even further pretty easily, although a 100lbs is a pretty big difference already.
    My wifes other ride is a '13 Nytro 162 that we got a screaming deal on, the difference between it and my RMK is more than noticeable. I'd rather ride my old '04 Summit.

  19. #44
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    You all just convinced me to take the 5 grand a year or so a sled would cost and invest it in light skis and heli time.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by panchosdad View Post
    You all just convinced me to take the 5 grand a year or so a sled would cost and invest it in light skis and heli time.
    Not a bad plan if all you want to do is ski. Sledding is probably more on par with smoking crack.
    Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. -Helen Keller

  21. #46
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    talking apex ...

    rx1 n nitro have 130hp apex has 150hp. it is a better motor coz its injected.

    rodgers, my buddy here on tgr went from a nitro to a 2014 xm freeride. the difference is at the end of the day he is not worn out. yamys are so farkin heavy! when up to speed its not so noticable. but when poking thru trees and low speeds make these things very difficult to manouver.
    I have riden many many sleds. the artic cat turbo 1100 was a pig unless throtle was wide open. almost impossible to turn at low speed! seriously! far too much weight up front on the skis. same as yam. nitros weight wear out carbiners, hyfax and drivers far to easy, skis too. I have never changed the drivers on my sled, but rodgers nitro's drivers were completely done at 2500km !!! it only had a front cooler and even with scratchers it over heats on icy trails.
    artic cats F8 I think, has the same issue. I've seen guys over heat on trails skidoo's ride no probs.

    I'm all about the skidoo and dream of am xm. I would if I could!

    yes the yamys will do the job you seem to require, but sledding is soooo much fun !!!

    everyone says they just want the sled for "axcess" ... bull-farkin-shit !!! I get far far more epic face shots on my sled! I have riden under the snow downhill side hilling dragging in the snow beside my sled superman style. It was life changing and everyone said it was the funniest thing they have ever seen as it was like a mogul moving across the hill ... with a sled imagination is the limit ...
    We, the RATBAGGERS, formally axcept our duty is to trigger avalaches on all skiers ...

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by panchosdad View Post
    You all just convinced me to take the 5 grand a year or so a sled would cost and invest it in light skis and heli time.


    As mentioned, not a bad plan, and probably safer.



    BUT, sled is about freedom for me. Go where you want, when you want, on your own time.


    Haven't done Heli myself, but have done Cat a few times. Got some great turns and was neat, however the structure of the whole thing took away from the experience. Go here, stop here, wait here, etc. etc.

    In the end, a good resort pow day is much better for my soul.

    Same thing with the sled. It's about as close to being on your own terms as it gets.

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