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Thread: California is Burning (Again)
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10-11-2019, 09:23 AM #451
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10-11-2019, 09:28 AM #452
We have the California Fair Plan now as an insurer of last resort. You're not gonna see a national program under this administration...
FWIW, I think we need a bridge to deal with all the folks who've been there for a long time and before these megafires started blowing up worse than they used to.
Then we need a hard conversation about building moratoria in certain places and, if not that, then ironclad codes and space requirements. In Paradise, most of the homes that survived were newer and met updated code requirements. In fact, I've heard reports of some newer homes making it through while the surrounding homes burnt to the ground.
We should also break up PG&E.
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10-11-2019, 01:25 PM #453
California is Burning (Again)
I appreciate your points but still disagree. First, I am 100% in favor of unlimited financial and criminal liability for utilities if they are found negligent. I believe that this is a necessary deterrent and in the case of PGE it still was not enough.
The fact that there are laws that against discriminating against a class of citizens just shows how often the utilities will do a money grab. It does not give them give them reason to be negligent in terms of safety. If people in a fire trap want power, they can go the CA PUC and demand power. The PUC can work with PGE and those communities on a solution that is not negligent and does not ignore safety. All PGE customers may have to pay more to safely give them power or maybe those residence will get some subsidies to get solar power.
I don’t think that PGE is the victim here. They were not preaching about the possible fire dangers and taking steps to mitigate them, including getting the forest service to help. Quite to the contrary, they were found negligent in some aspects. Risk mitigation is a part of every business and if PGE can’t mitigate their risks quite simply they shouldn’t be in the utility business. In conclusion, I don’t think it’s asking too much for utilities to safely deliver their power.
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10-11-2019, 03:07 PM #454
Even attempting to defend the forest policy of the last 50+ years is laughable, and not all of the recent megafires were started from electrical issues.
Both sides bear fault for sure, but the punishment only falls to the utility. That is not right.
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10-11-2019, 03:14 PM #455
Does anyone have a realistic plan to deliver electricity to these areas in a significantly safer manner? I can't imagine the astronomical cost to bury those high transmission lines across hundreds and hundreds of miles in that rugged terrain.
Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!
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10-11-2019, 03:40 PM #456
See Michael Wara link in post #443.
In related news, this shit is more than just an inconvenience to some people...
https://abc7news.com/norcal-man-depe...-says/5611878/
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10-11-2019, 04:07 PM #457
California is Burning (Again)
Still no power or telecom. In town picking up kid from school.
Want to point out a few things stated before:
-There have been several big wildfires in CA that have burned into and caused substantial damage to areas currently and previously not considered WUI or mapped as in a designated “very high” or “high” fire hazard severity zone by the State.
-According to the LA Times, 25% of the states population lives in areas mapped as “very high” or “high” fire hazard severity zone by the State.
-in regards to insurance, with the above #’s, I think that the state needs to start a state fire insurance program, similar to the NFIP but better, and not the same as the CA Fair Plan. State legislatures are discussing pulling out of the NFIP in favor of a state FIP, and there are plenty less population in the floodplain in CA that’s the fire hazard areas.
-something that needs to be recalled about PGE is the decades of deferred maintenance of their easements and deferred maintenance of their equipment.
- I recently heard that the Tahoe basin will have a reduced fire hazard predicted in the future, I think it’s 2050... I’m pretty sure that’s due to the forecast of a catastrophic fire in the basin.
Pge has now identified 23 spots so far through inspections where their system needs work before re-energizing some circuits.
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10-11-2019, 06:31 PM #458
I think it’s exact right. PGE is ultimately responsible. Show me the documents where PGE entered into agreement with the Forest Service and the Forest Service didn’t do its part. Ultimately power safety falls on PGE and not the Forest service. I am not saying that the Forest Service is perfect but if PGE can’t safely deliver power they shouldn’t be in the utility business.
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10-11-2019, 06:37 PM #459
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10-11-2019, 06:41 PM #460Registered User
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According to pge.com we're supposed to get power back Sunday night.
Note that the problem isn't just providing power to homes in "fire traps", it's all the places where transmission lines are running through fire prone areas. Unless you want to say that people should only live within a few miles of a generation plant.
I bet electricians are going to be busy installing transfer switches for a while. Including at my house.
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10-11-2019, 07:09 PM #461
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10-11-2019, 07:56 PM #462
California is Burning (Again)
[QUOTE=bodywhomper;5778049]
-in regards to insurance, with the above #’s, I think that the state needs to start a state fire insurance program, similar to the NFIP but better, and not the same as the CA Fair Plan. State legislatures are discussing pulling out of the NFIP in favor of a state FIP, and there are plenty less population in the floodplain in CA that’s the fire hazard areas.
/QUOTE]
As someone who works in the industry, insurance per risk $ has never been cheaper. Several insurers saw indemnity exceed total premiums two years in a row, never mind overhead and costs to adjust. Unless you change the way claims are paid or have the taxpayers subsidize it, there’s no way you are making that math work.
I got a quote for fire only from the CA fair plan for shitty coverage, $2300 premium, then I needed another policy for $800 / year for everything else. Another private insurer gave me an all risks plan, excluding flood and earthquake of course, with guaranteed replacement cost for $1500.
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10-11-2019, 08:06 PM #463
As I understand it, the PUC allows PGE to bill customers for maintenance and upgrade on a cost plus basis, but there is little enforcement to see that the work is done. This is true for various utilities large and small around the state. So yes, maintenance is a profit center but that doesn't mean they're doing maintenance.
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10-11-2019, 08:33 PM #464Registered User
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10-11-2019, 08:51 PM #465
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10-11-2019, 10:04 PM #466
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10-11-2019, 10:37 PM #467
Dealing with utility caused fires is definitely important. But we might avoid one of those fires with endless investment in undergrounding transmission lines, localizing power grids and upgrading to solar/battery capability only to have an equally destructive fire caused by something else: lightning, an illegal campfire, fireworks, faulty equipment, discarded cigarette, shooting, any number of other stupid acts or straight up arson. People as a society need to really start taking fire safety seriously. I camp often and almost always see people with fires going during fire bans, but almost never see patrols or enforcement. Call them on it and you get told to fuck off. Constantly see cigarettes thrown out of cars. Education and enforcement have to become priorities, with real penalties not slaps on the wrist. And at the same time fuel reduction needs to be ramped up big time. $250M or whatever CA has upped the budget too won't get far in a state this big. This has to be addressed from all angles. Except climate change, because we all know that doesn't exist.
Even with huge fires raging all over the state the last couple years I'd go camping and see people with raging campfires during fire bans. No sign of enforcement. Or see people throwing cigarettes out their windows.
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10-11-2019, 10:40 PM #468
California is Burning (Again)
The utilities should just be owned and controlled democratically by the rate payers. Enough of this privatization dogma. PG&E was super efficient at putting off maintenance so they could pay dividends and PR companies.
https://theintercept.com/2019/10/11/...wn-california/
- I recently heard that the Tahoe basin will have a reduced fire hazard predicted in the future, I think it’s 2050... I’m pretty sure that’s due to the forecast of a catastrophic fire in the basin.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by lepistoir; 10-11-2019 at 11:30 PM.
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10-11-2019, 11:28 PM #469Registered User
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Thanks for this info; I've been wondering where the smoke in South Lake was coming from; the word I heard was "controlled burn"; today seemed like more smoke than usual from a controlled burn. Sounds like this Caples fire is the culprit. All that matters now is controlling the fire directly upwind of our home, prayers and gratitude to the firefighters.
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10-12-2019, 03:19 AM #470
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10-12-2019, 09:42 AM #471
I work in the powerline vegetation management industry and recently attended the West Coast Utility Commissions Wildfire Dialogue. IIRC, they stated something like 90%+ of electrical utility fires are started from distribution circuits. From my point of view, I don't see much transmission going underground anytime soon.
Videos are available here if anyone wants to watch.
"Tracking the Changing Risk": https://www.tvw.org/watch/?eventID=2019081026
"Making Risk-Based Changes to the System": https://www.tvw.org/watch/?eventID=2019081027
"Managing the Financial Risks": https://www.tvw.org/watch/?eventID=2019081028
"Expanding Public Safety Coordination": https://www.tvw.org/watch/?eventID=2019081029
9:00 – 9:15
Welcome & Introductory Remarks by Commissioner Letha Tawney, Oregon Public Utilities Commission
9:15-10:30
Panel #1: Tracking the changing risk
How is climate change impacting potential wildfire areas and are current risk mapping practices sufficient?
· Moderator: Chair Dave Danner, Washington Utilities Transportation Commission
· Dr. Crystal Raymond, Climate Adaptation Specialist, University of Washington Climate Impacts Group
· Dr. Chris Dunn, Research Associate, Oregon State University
· Kacey KC, State Forester Firewarden, Department of Conservation and Natural Resources, Nevada Division of Forestry
10:30-12:00
Panel #2: Making risk-based changes to the system
How can utilities effectively prioritize risk mitigation efforts, and what issues or barriers develop for utilities?
· Moderator: Chair David M. Morton, British Columbia Utilities Commission
· Robin Furrer, Vice President of Transmission and Field Services, Bonneville Power Administration
· Mike Guite, Manager of Transmission Sustainment Planning Group, BC Hydro
· Brian D’Agostino, Director of Fire Science and Climate Adaptation, San Diego Gas & Electric
· Koko Tomassian, Safety Enforcement Division, California Public Utilities Commission
12:00-1:30
Lunch Break
Please note that lunch is not provided. Attendees are encouraged to visit any of the many local restaurants at or near the Oregon Convention Center.
1:30-2:45
Panel #3: Expanding public safety coordination
What factors should be considered to ensure de-energization does not increase public safety risks now that transportation, communication and other essential services are more reliant on electricity?
· Moderator: Commissioner Hayley Williamson, Nevada Public Utilities Commission
· Anthony Noll, Safety and Enforcement Division, California Public Utilities Commission
· Ronda Strauch, Climate Change Research and Adaptation Advisor, Seattle City Light
· David Lucas, Vice President, Transmission and Distribution Operations, Pacific Power
· Derek Rinn, Regional Manager of Network Services, FortisBC
2:45-3:00
Break
3:00-4:15
Panel #4: Managing the financial risks
What are the financial tools available for utilities to mitigate ratepayer risk and keep the cost of providing service affordable? Are these tools robust enough for the scale of possible losses?
· Moderator: Commissioner Clifford Rechtschaffen, California Public Utilities Commission
· Maria Pope, CEO, Portland General Electric
· Richard Sedano, President and CEO, Regulatory Assistance Project
4:15-4:30
Closing Remarks by Commissioner Letha Tawney, Oregon
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10-12-2019, 10:35 AM #472?
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10-12-2019, 11:15 AM #473
stalefish, thanks for sharing that information.
Concerns about transmission line vulnerability is what caused a lot of the extent and length of time for the piss-piss in CA. My recent memory in Nor CA is that several fires were caused by transmission system. Off the top of my head: the initial fire from the Camp Fire and the Butte Fire in Calaveras and Amador Counties.
It’s both.
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10-12-2019, 11:34 AM #474
California is Burning (Again)
in real news
the Caples Fire got away from the FS this week - what started out as a prescribed fire has been reclassified as a wildland fire - a Type 3 IMT is on it
https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/6622/I didn't believe in reincarnation when I was your age either.
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10-12-2019, 04:38 PM #475
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