Enough of Park City, time to flame one wasatch

[miggygreene]

I smell a great winter season in USA today.. Park City will soon be entertaining guests too..

[Swine]

Good point. But there could be a new market created.......maybe. If you had that valet service moving your luggage around the family tourists might buy it. Who knows, this is all speculation really. Even if they came but didn't use the full interconnect the hype alone would bring in enough #s that the ski areas will buy into the whole thing. The pass thing is the big question in my mind, if it's not affordable and reasonable than the whole thing is shit really.

You're reaching. Who the hell is going to pack the kids and everything up so a 3rd party can move them every day? And what do you mean by "Even if they came but didn't use the full interconnect the hype alone would bring in enough #s that the ski areas will buy into the whole thing." That's precisely what shouldn't happen.

You can't look at One Wasatch in a vacuum. I'm not sure it'll be bad in the long run, especially for the majority of skiers (who stay on-piste and, secondarily, sidecountry). Yes, BC skiing will suffer. Duh!

One ramification of this absolutely stupid plan is that even more terrain becomes sidecountry. And. this isn't just about what skiers want, it's about the preservation of wilderness, and that experience, for all users.

....voice their concerns strongly enough some good compromises could be made. .....But seriously, has it had a real back country feel in those quickly accessed areas for the past 10+ years? Every time I visit LCC I am in disbelief at the circus and urban feeling ski thing that is going on. You can't hide from the fact that the whole area sits right next to a major urban populace. Calling the bc experience there pure is far from what I would call it. Sure, there are places to get away from all of that maybe but it's not where these connections are. This is why after seeing and visiting/living in many different areas I kind of feel that if a Euro connect is going to happen somewhere in the US it could/should happen there.

Dude, this is the point, compromise has been happening for the last 40 years (yeah long before I got here SFB, I'm such a poser nimby...). There is a FINITE amount of wilderness in a very small area. EUROPE IS HUGE. They are totally different animals - and this isn't a Euro-connect, it's another attempt at the beginning of a PR polished land grab to "expand the experience" or whatever other euphemism people want to try and get you to swallow.

[skifishbum]

advancements in gear and the selling/marketing of the backcountry is putting more people in the backcountry than these lifts ever will.
and the whiners arn't the ones out trackin er up everyday
i miss ole crackhead
fun dude to tour w/.
i hope his fine young fams doin well
only thing i sell is the installation of roofin products for cash.
and ski fixin skills

[bigdude2468]

You have no data to support this.

Lets clarify something about Utah liquor laws. There is a misconception about 3.2 beer, it is actually 4%. Utah measures alcohol content by weight, almost everywhere they measure it by volume. Utah 3.2% is 4% on everyone else's scale. By comparison regular Bud and Miller products are 4.5% so .05% more than what you will find in Utah. The light beer products elsewhere have even less alcohol content, about 4.2% so in reality there is no difference in alcohol content if you are drinking Bud Light, Miller or Coors light in Utah versus Colorado. I do not spend the entire year in SLC, just the winter months. While the state stores can be crowded I do not find them to be a huge inconvenience. They have an excellent wine selection at prices that are very competitive with what I pay elsewhere. We don't eat out often but when I go to restaurants I don't see anything different, no curtain of Zion at The Porcupine or the Hog Wallow (no kins allowed). The changes four or five years ago did make Utah much more transparent.

BTW, Utah is not the only state without liquor sales on Sunday. Minnesota does not allow liquor stores to be open on Sunday, only convenience stores for beer.

[My Pet Powder Goat]

Lets clarify something about Utah liquor laws. There is a misconception about 3.2 beer, it is actually 4%. Utah measures alcohol content by weight, almost everywhere they measure it by volume. Utah 3.2% is 4% on everyone else's scale. By comparison regular Bud and Miller products are 4.5% so .05% more than what you will find in Utah. The light beer products elsewhere have even less alcohol content, about 4.2% so in reality there is no difference in alcohol content if you are drinking Bud Light, Miller or Coors light in Utah versus Colorado. I do not spend the entire year in SLC, just the winter months. While the state stores can be crowded I do not find them to be a huge inconvenience. They have an excellent wine selection at prices that are very competitive with what I pay elsewhere. We don't eat out often but when I go to restaurants I don't see anything different, no curtain of Zion at The Porcupine or the Hog Wallow (no kins allowed). The changes four or five years ago did make Utah much more transparent.

BTW, Utah is not the only state without liquor sales on Sunday. Minnesota does not allow liquor stores to be open on Sunday, only convenience stores for beer.

Word. That's always bugged me. exp nowadays people know what their beers ABV% is. I hear it all the time, and have to correct people. Utah would be wise to adopt an ABV% to stop this misconception

However, Budweiser comes in at 5%ABV, while The light beers are most commonly 3.8-4.2ABV, so it's like drinking keystone lights all damn day.

[Bromontana]

Most people on vacation don't ski one day. Once again, I think a lot of you are missing the potential experience that is envisioned.

I could see people spending a day at one hill then moving over to the next to spend the night at a lodge or whatever. This could continue for 5+ days. It could also be sweet for 3 days. Or, as a tourist you could stay at Solitude like a base camp and bounce back and forth between the resorts. This of course is only if the passes for the interconnect were on par with the resort passes and for season pass holders a reasonable option for interconnect was available as well.

Just to be clear on this, precisely what about the current layout prevents you from bouncing around to different resorts? You could drive into LCC, stay at the bird and ski AltaBird for two days. Then drop into Brighton on your own legs or by car and stay at Solitude. Brighton and Solitude already have a connect pass. Two days Brighton/Solitude, then repeat and head to PC.

The problem with your proposed plan is that it's effectively there today for anyone that wants it. And almost nobody does because the mountains are big and what sounds good on paper is actually a pain in the ass to execute in real life.

You can't look at One Wasatch in a vacuum. I'm not sure it'll be bad in the long run, especially for the majority of skiers (who stay on-piste and, secondarily, sidecountry). Yes, BC skiing will suffer. Duh!

So what is the argument for continually shafting non-lift served user groups while selling off public land for pennies on the dollar? Literally, the USFS is charging 0.10-0.20 on the dollar for ski operators to come in and hoover all the greenbacks they can off USFS land. Meanwhile, all other user groups have higher costs and fewer options.

That is not democratic, it's just crony capitalism. The locals won't benefit much because the jobs are shit for the most part and the primary change will be less mountain access and more traffic, plus higher costs to fund more infrastructure. Before you classify anti-development ppl as NIMBYs, remember that the Central Wasatch TODAY has around 3million visitors inside an area smaller than Breckenridge valley.

[bigdude2468]

Word. That's always bugged me. exp nowadays people know what their beers ABV% is. I hear it all the time, and have to correct people. Utah would be wise to adopt an ABV% to stop this misconception

However, Budweiser comes in at 5%ABV, while The light beers are most commonly 3.8-4.2ABV, so it's like drinking keystone lights all damn day.

I took my information from a 2011 article in City Weekly, they said Coors and Bud were 4.4 - 4.5% if that is not the case ok but the point remains the same, the difference is not significant. I do enjoy the high alcohol brews we have available, Hops Rising / The Devastator etc but honestly I am not going to drink those anywhere except at home. The lower alcohol beers allow for a little lee way if you are driving and I prefer a 4% ABV when I am throwing my gear in the back of the truck after a day in the BC. I am tired the beer tastes great and it 4% not 6%+, I can have two and not fall asleep.

[Bromontana]

Word. That's always bugged me. exp nowadays people know what their beers ABV% is. I hear it all the time, and have to correct people. Utah would be wise to adopt an ABV% to stop this misconception

However, Budweiser comes in at 5%ABV, while The light beers are most commonly 3.8-4.2ABV, so it's like drinking keystone lights all damn day.

To anyone interested in the beer scene, your points are moot. Colorado has bring your own food breweries that, for better or worse, fill seats and drive visits. Alcohol is a big part of western culture. Putting forward an argument that its limitation in Utah does not hamper visits is fucking retarded. EPIC brewing can't even install a beer tap in its Sugarhouse gastropub because of Utah law. That is stupid, it hampers tourism and in aggregate, makes UT less competitive than CO for people looking to have nightlife while on vacation. Regardless of how many people you think fall in that category, there is an impact.

[creaky fossil]

I love these trustafarians who move to Utah to prove they're More Core Than You, Bro, and they insist on changing Utah to suit their whims of trusty spoiled bratness

"Utah is rad with tons of pow, I'm moving there when I finish up at Hotchkiss."
"Bink moved there after Choate."
"Trip moved there after St Paul's."
"Trey moved there after Groton."
"Ortness moved there after Boys Latin."

fast forward 7 years

"Man the skiing is great, but these Mormons have fucked up laws and habits."
"No shit. I mean, our hazing rituals at Choate were brutal, but that's Choate, y'know?"
"Glad I went to St Paul's, but I agree. We need to get some friends out here who like politics, get them to fix SLC."
"I have a buddy from Groton who is a sorta-skier but mostly a schmoozy lawyer politician with a fat fund backing him...."
"Sounds perfect. Would he marry an LDS woman to grease the social skids?"

fast forward 3 years

"Groton buddy has been a smash hit, development everywhere and we're raking in the cash."
"Yeah but now it's crowded and the fuckin' pollution, holy shit."
"And the 3.2 beer, we gotta change that."
"And the separate ski areas, needs fixing."
"Can Groton buddy outlaw the LDS church?"

[Johnny Deep]

Lets clarify something about Utah liquor laws. There is a misconception about 3.2 beer, it is actually 4%. Utah measures alcohol content by weight, almost everywhere they measure it by volume. Utah 3.2% is 4% on everyone else's scale. By comparison regular Bud and Miller products are 4.5% so .05% more than what you will find in Utah. The light beer products elsewhere have even less alcohol content, about 4.2% so in reality there is no difference in alcohol content if you are drinking Bud Light, Miller or Coors light in Utah versus Colorado. I do not spend the entire year in SLC, just the winter months. While the state stores can be crowded I do not find them to be a huge inconvenience. They have an excellent wine selection at prices that are very competitive with what I pay elsewhere. We don't eat out often but when I go to restaurants I don't see anything different, no curtain of Zion at The Porcupine or the Hog Wallow (no kins allowed). The changes four or five years ago did make Utah much more transparent.

BTW, Utah is not the only state without liquor sales on Sunday. Minnesota does not allow liquor stores to be open on Sunday, only convenience stores for beer.

And we's gots Epic for those who are not meek at heart.

[schindlerpiste]

Creaky Fossil, ^^^pure gold, right there

[criscam]

To anyone interested in the beer scene, your points are moot. Colorado has bring your own food breweries that, for better or worse, fill seats and drive visits. Alcohol is a big part of western culture. Putting forward an argument that its limitation in Utah does not hamper visits is fucking retarded. EPIC brewing can't even install a beer tap in its Sugarhouse gastropub because of Utah law. That is stupid, it hampers tourism and in aggregate, makes UT less competitive than CO for people looking to have nightlife while on vacation. Regardless of how many people you think fall in that category, there is an impact.

I think the point mppg was making was that it isn't as bad as outsiders think but that's the issue. i'd think ut tourism would benefit by putting a little $ into education/promoting the ut beer scene (saw an article where ut is in the top 20 for breweries). that and keep trying to progress the beer/alcohol scene here (not really a ski thing). unfortunately it's usually 2 steps fwd one step back.
that being said, I selfishly don't mind the misconception as it surely keeps some people away from my happy place.

[pvars]

Remember a couple of months ago when Utah made national news that it was considering not allowing Snowbird to serve beer at Octoberfest? That sort of thing has got to stop.

[criscam]

Remember a couple of months ago when Utah made national news that it was considering not allowing Snowbird to serve beer at Octoberfest? That sort of thing has got to stop.

agreed. I know the church has their moral reasons but they also value their money so...

[pvars]

And the airbrushing in sleeves and higher necklines on high school yearbook photos? That's what the rest of the country hears about Utah.

[muted]

You can buy full-strength refrigerated beer on Sundays, to go, at The Annex in Sugarhouse. Seems like nobody knows this around SLC.

[Bromontana]

C_F rants again... I'm 32 and spend most my free time with my dog and gf. In winter I hike around with friends (sans gopro, even!). There is no motivation other than what has brought a lot of ppl before: less crowded, better proximity to mtns, close to all areas in the west for road trips.

I think the point mppg was making was that it isn't as bad as outsiders think but that's the issue. i'd think ut tourism would benefit by putting a little $ into education/promoting the ut beer scene (saw an article where ut is in the top 20 for breweries). that and keep trying to progress the beer/alcohol scene here (not really a ski thing). unfortunately it's usually 2 steps fwd one step back.
that being said, I selfishly don't mind the misconception as it surely keeps some people away from my happy place.

I know that's MPPG's point. UT has advantages in terrain and access, disadvantages in culture and entertainment. Improving on the advantages at the expense of a broad base of people while ignoring disadvantages that could be improved upon represents a misplaced focus. Locals will have to pay more for passes and get more congestion, less backcountry and forest land to enjoy, with the benefit going mostly to a handful of people in the industry.

My argument has nothing to do with trying to fix Utah, just to explain that if you're going to try and emulate Colorado, you can't exclude culture from your approach. And focusing on plans that fuck over locals isn't exactly a smart or fair approach.

[itsnowjoke]

If the stuff on tap is so close in alcohol content to what the rest of the country is drinking, why does Utah go out of it's way to make it different? A Utah brand-name draft beer tastes like donkey piss compared to a beer of the same label in any other state. Not only is that wrong, it's stupid. Based on the absolute ignorance of a governing alcohol board comprised entirely of of people who proudly proclaim to not drink. Given that reasoning, we should put NASA entirely in the hands of people who hate space and flying.

Having said that, I've never had a hard time getting a decent beer or whatnot in Utah. I just order bottled beer when I'm out. It's the real-deal, full alcohol content. I'm an IPAasuarus, so I can get what I want. But again, if they bring you a draft IPA, the shitty taste comes as a bit of a shock.

[creaky fossil]

C_F rants again... I'm 32 and spend most my free time with my dog and gf. In winter I hike around with friends (sans gopro, even!). There is no motivation other than what has brought a lot of ppl before: less crowded, better proximity to mtns, close to all areas in the west for road trips.

don't forget the latent agenda: gonna purify that place, make it my fantasy-come-true, get rid of everyone and everything that intrudes on my fantasy

apparently it's hard to move somewhere new and FIT IN apparently the usual motivation is move somewhere new and BOSS THEM AROUND UNTIL THEY LEAVE THEIR HOMETOWN OR COMPLY WITH MY WHIMS apparently everyone's got a little conquistador inside him/her, waiting to arise

[Bromontana]

don't forget the latent agenda: gonna purify that place, make it my fantasy-come-true, get rid of everyone and everything that intrudes on my fantasy

apparently it's hard to move somewhere new and FIT IN apparently the usual motivation is move somewhere new and BOSS THEM AROUND UNTIL THEY LEAVE THEIR HOMETOWN OR COMPLY WITH MY WHIMS apparently everyone's got a little conquistador inside him/her, waiting to arise

Creaky, you really don't understand what my motivations or long term aspirations are about. I want to quit my 9-5. I have no trust fund, political connections etc. My gf and I look at land about 2x a week and are working towards buying a plot near the Uintas, with the goal of living there long term.

In terms of fitting in.. my tgr adventures are for entertainment. Plenty of college friends from the U and climbing/toruing around the front to keep me busy, I don't need TGR help to fill a social calendar or fit in. That said, the forum is a great place for beta on the snowpack as well as nonsense like what just went down with Vail/PCMR.

Your fictional musings are entertaining, but don't have much to do with me.

[muted]

If the stuff on tap is so close in alcohol content to what the rest of the country is drinking, why does Utah go out of it's way to make it different? A Utah brand-name draft beer tastes like donkey piss compared to a beer of the same label in any other state.

Not all Utah brand beers taste like donkey piss because it's on tap.

Uinta Brewing, a Utah brand beer, specifically brews for the alcohol content allowed by the state. So it tastes great from the tap, it's not watered down. Baba, for example. All their low-alcohol beer tastes exactly the same as it does out of state, because it's the exact same beer. All their high content beer is not found on tap in Utah, and is sold at high strength in Utah and across the US. Correct me if I'm wrong here...

If all Utah breweries did this, and I think a lot do but certainly not all, then you just have to worry about out-of-state beer on tap. But probably like you, I rarely order anything on tap in Utah so it doesn't matter.

[creaky fossil]

Creaky, you really don't understand what my motivations or long term aspirations are about. I want to quit my 9-5. I have no trust fund, political connections etc. My gf and I look at land about 2x a week and are working towards buying a plot near the Uintas, with the goal of living there long term.

In terms of fitting in.. my tgr adventures are for entertainment. Plenty of college friends from the U and climbing/toruing around the front to keep me busy, I don't need TGR help to fill a social calendar or fit in. That said, the forum is a great place for beta on the snowpack as well as nonsense like what just went down with Vail/PCMR.

Your fictional musings are entertaining, but don't have much to do with me.

if you can show me where I said, "Bromontana, I'm describing YOU here," I'd appreciate it.

otherwise, if you actually move somewhere new and don't try to gentrify it, and/or don't idly sit back and watch the gentrification with a glowing heart, you'll fit within that exceptional 0.00256% of people who moved to smaller rural locales for their small rurality.

[Bromontana]

if you can show me where I said, "Bromontana, I'm describing YOU here," I'd appreciate it.

I'll admit to being a sensitive flower, but it did seem like you were talking directly about me. Post followed mine, referenced my crititique of UT liquor laws, made a point to use Bro (has been used as an abbrev. for my handle). If you're not directing at me, my apologies for being annoying.

[Sirshredalot]

I love these trustafarians who move to Utah to prove they're More Core Than You, Bro, and they insist on changing Utah to suit their whims of trusty spoiled bratness

"Utah is rad with tons of pow, I'm moving there when I finish up at Hotchkiss."
"Bink moved there after Choate."
"Trip moved there after St Paul's."
"Trey moved there after Groton."
"Ortness moved there after Boys Latin."

fast forward 7 years

"Man the skiing is great, but these Mormons have fucked up laws and habits."
"No shit. I mean, our hazing rituals at Choate were brutal, but that's Choate, y'know?"
"Glad I went to St Paul's, but I agree. We need to get some friends out here who like politics, get them to fix SLC."
"I have a buddy from Groton who is a sorta-skier but mostly a schmoozy lawyer politician with a fat fund backing him...."
"Sounds perfect. Would he marry an LDS woman to grease the social skids?"

fast forward 3 years

"Groton buddy has been a smash hit, development everywhere and we're raking in the cash."
"Yeah but now it's crowded and the fuckin' pollution, holy shit."
"And the 3.2 beer, we gotta change that."
"And the separate ski areas, needs fixing."
"Can Groton buddy outlaw the LDS church?"

Lol. Wifey's friend got a job offer back in Missoula. She started by telling her friend she HAD to take it but couldn't endorse the cycling or the skiing over the wasatch. Pretty much comes down to the cultural stuff, which doesn't bother us much.

[Dantheman]

That and securing that the shared pass system could actually work, wouldn't become unattainable for the regular working wo/man skier and only something that the wealthy can enjoy I don't see too much of an issue.

The ski industry as a whole has made a concerted effort for the last 20+ years to try and make skiing something only the wealthy can do. There's no reason to think that "the regular working wo/man skier" will be considered at all when it comes time to price this stuff out.

Then again, I feel no connection to the Grizzly Gulch bc skiing area but that's just me. I don't see there being much of a problem having some sort of easement under the Grizzly ski lift and through the bottom of one or two ski runs to get out into the "back country" if you can even call it that.

Alta has a strict policy against uphill traffic. There is no reason to think that they will not fight tooth-and-nail to ban uphill traffic in GG if GG became inbounds terrain. Only a fool would proceed with the assumption that they will make that concession. And, yes, since it is outside of any ski area boundary GG and the terrain you access through it (east Emma ridge, Twin Lakes, Wolverine Cirque) is backcountry.

But seriously, has it had a real back country feel in those quickly accessed areas for the past 10+ years? Every time I visit LCC I am in disbelief at the circus and urban feeling ski thing that is going on. You can't hide from the fact that the whole area sits right next to a major urban populace. Calling the bc experience there pure is far from what I would call it. Sure, there are places to get away from all of that maybe but it's not where these connections are. This is why after seeing and visiting/living in many different areas I kind of feel that if a Euro connect is going to happen somewhere in the US it could/should happen there.

The fact that the Wasatch is close to a major urban center and heavily used is exactly why it needs more robust protection. The notion that it's not "real" backcountry because there are people around and you can see lifts and buildings is total bullshit. I'm not trying to get away from it all every time I BC ski in the Wasatch, I'm just trying to get some good turns. Further, the terrain that will be impacted by these connections and expansions encompasses 1) much of the best BC ski terrain, especially if you don't have unlimited time and want to just get in a quick lap or two; 2) most of the BC terrain you can safely ski when avalanche danger is high; and 3) most of the BC terrain that is skiable early/late season or in lean years.

I recognize that the ski areas are 100% necessary to enjoy the quality of BC access we get here. Without them the canyon roads would be closed in the winters and you would be skinning from the valley for everything. However, they already control a majority of the prime ski terrain (high elevation N. facing aspects) and the laughable marketing gimmick that is ONEWasatch is no reason to roll over and let them take much of (the best of) the rest.