Home Remodel: Do, Don'ts, Advice

**EWG** · 11-27-2019, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Mofro261

No silicone to paint anywhere, both sides connected by a continuous bead to the tile surface. Glass guys billed it as a "2 man set" so the piece does have some weight to it. The company has been around since mid 70's so I got the idea they knew what they are doing. Said structural silicone was all they needed.

To tile? Nice. Much better. Missed that in the pic. Should be ok. Just don’t grab the corner and yank on it.

**Rideski** · 12-01-2019, 04:31 PM

I’ve been meaning to dig into this thread but then it blossomed up past 30 pages and I haven’t taken the plunge yet.

Has there been any chatter about heated cords placed through your aluminum gutters to prevent ice dams?
Fairly affordable, but mixed reviews.
Where I live there is quite a bit of sunshine and I have my gutters painted dark, so it seems like it might be more conducive than a colder darker snowier place.

If there’s a bunch of chatter a few pages back, bueno, if not, anybody using?

**Flyoverland Captive** · 12-01-2019, 04:41 PM

I have heat tape on my roof; it works great. I still get ice buildup, but the tape melts channels through it, so water doesn’t build up and leak in. I’ll try to get some pics.

Be sure to do the zig-zag pattern on the shingles, don’t just lay the wire in the gutter; the dams form above the gutters.

**Danno** · 12-01-2019, 04:47 PM

Was just having this discussion minutes ago. Need heat tape, don't have any.

Don't think there's been any discussion in here.

**Flyoverland Captive** · 12-01-2019, 05:02 PM

Anti-ice tape tips:

*Get remote control switches so you don’t have to go outside to turn them on.

*Get the tape on Amazon with the lighted plugs, so you can see at a glance whether they are on or off.

*Installation is pretty easy, but get more than you think you need.

*Run the cord up a downspout, if there’s an outlet nearby; then run it along the gutter. Start the zig-zag pattern from the end of the wire, above the downspout (assuming its at the end of the gutter.) Work toward the far end; any extra wire can then be looped up any valleys you may have. Obviously this depends on your roof line.

**Vt-Freeheel** · 12-01-2019, 05:03 PM

Y'all need to insulate and vent properly and you won't have to produce additional greenhouse gases to cure the result of escaping greenhouse gases causing ice dams.

thisoldhouse.com/preventing-ice-dams

**Flyoverland Captive** · 12-01-2019, 05:07 PM

Yep, poor insulation and venting is the cause; but every house I’ve ever lived in had the problem from time to time.

**Rideski** · 12-01-2019, 05:43 PM

If the millionaires can heat their entire driveway, I’m going to choose to have a warm attic insulating/ radiant heating my living areas versus just piping it all out.

**iceman** · 12-01-2019, 06:19 PM

You don't want to be heating your attic in the first place. Thinking you're getting radiant heat from an unheated space is bananas. You're radiating heat into it, not vice versa.

**Rideski** · 12-01-2019, 06:28 PM

I remodeled a carriage house and the HVAC guy’s recommendation was the throw the furnace in the attic to save space. Therefore there’s heat coming off the furnace although there’s no open vents/registers up there. A byproduct is that it keeps the ceilings in the living areas warmer, which is at the very least insulation or could be deemed radiant heat.

Even if all that wasn’t the case like presumably Danno and FOL above, making your attic straight outside air temp seems odd to me unless it’s doing major damage to your house in some way or another. Even if the attic space is 32 degrees instead of -10 it’s going to be keeping your living areas warmer. Not to mention people that convert their attic into living space or at least frequently used storage.

**Vt-Freeheel** · 12-01-2019, 06:34 PM

^^^

**old goat** · 12-01-2019, 06:57 PM

We added a garage with a flat, decked roof. There are gutters along the downslope side of the deck. The contractor put in heat tapes but we never used them. The garage is unheated so we don't get a lot of melt runoff. We used to have a problem with ice dams on the roof, much better since the roof was redone with a good membrane underlayment and additional insulation in the cathedral ceiling. Before we did that we used heating tapes on the roof and they were effective. You don't need to use them all the time, just when you suspect water is building up. Like the man said, they don't melt the whole ice dam, just make runoff channels in it. It's important that the tapes zig zag up high enough so that part of them are over heated space.

In heavy snow country I'm not sure gutters are very effective. They do get frozen up and tend to get ripped off by the snow and ice. Better to have the roof overhand big enough to get water away from the foundation. Around here the code says we need armored drip lines--18 inch wide by I can't remember how deep ditches filled with drain rock. But the building inspector says bad idea to introduce water into the ground next to the foundation, so we put in fake armored drip lines--just an inch of drain rock.
It helps that the house is on a hillside so the water runs downhill instead of puddling next to the house.

**::: :::** · 12-01-2019, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Vt-Freeheel

^^^

+1

**Rideski** · 12-01-2019, 07:36 PM

Why tho?
Maybe logical to note that in my hood people are knocking down half million dollar 1920’s houses to build from scratch. I’m completely unconcerned about a decade from now. I’ll either sell it or rebuild it myself in 2-3 years. Additionally, I’m cetrain there’s no water intrusion. So if I get warm interior ceilings as a byproduct, I don’t really see a neg, and HVAC guys have agreed with me. Just interested in better flow for the gutters is all.

**iceman** · 12-01-2019, 07:43 PM

Hey if you're out of there soon I guess it doesn't matter much. But you're wasting energy and creating conditions that are ripe for water damage and mold because of condensation, especially so if the space is vented to the outside. Plus ice dams could be a bitch, you have the whole roof melting snow right up until where the roof passes over the outside wall and then the meltwater can freeze.

And again, despite the furnace being up there you're not getting heat from the attic, you're giving it to the attic - heat that you paid for and which would be better off staying inside where you can feel it.

**Rideski** · 12-01-2019, 07:49 PM

Yeah I check the attic several times a year. Zero water intrusion, zero mold. Very dry humidity climate here in general, almost desert. Totally realize wasting some heating money, but in tiny house scenario have to make compromises somewhere. Property value going up approx $20-$40k per year...

**::: :::** · 12-01-2019, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by Rideski

Why tho?

https://www.buildingscience.com/docu...ic-ventilation

https://www.buildingscience.com/docu...46-dam-ice-dam

Figure 3: Stupid on Steroids—What could you possibly be thinking installing a duct system in a vented attic in a cold climate where it snows? The air leakage out of the ducts and the conductive and radiative losses from the surfaces of the ducts will kill you. Ice damming is absolutely guaranteed. Don’t do this. Stop. If you think you can guarantee that the ducts will be airtight, and that the openings where they penetrate the ceiling will be airtight, and that you can wrap them with enough insulation to avoid a problem, I have some Greek government bonds to sell you.

**Flyoverland Captive** · 12-01-2019, 10:02 PM

^^^ Yeah, that; but I bought my current house after the last owner retrofitted an attic forced-air system. I live with what I have.

**Rideski** · 12-02-2019, 01:25 AM

Uh, kill me? Like with fumes? I’ve been here for a few years. It was the most logical solution a few HVAC guys came up with, wasn’t only my idea. It has a cold air intake for combustion and a vertical combustion exhaust direct vent.

Have had no water infiltration at all over the years after installation. Just a little ice build up in the gutters after a wet storm and a cold snap.

Or is that a figurative kill me financially? My gas bill last month was $38, and that includes all gas stove cooking and gas heated water. I do have all the ducts wrapped with fiber glass insulation and the ducts into the house are caulked. So let’s say I installed the furnace in the living area and cut my heating bill in half. So I’d save like $10 or $20 a month for four months a year. Not concerned.

Texts books get a little too serious sometimes regarding absolute principles and don’t consider variable circumstances.

In any case, the question was about heating cords for gutters, if anyone else has had good experiences with any various brands or systems I’d be happy to hear.

**bigdude2468** · 12-02-2019, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by Rideski

I remodeled a carriage house and the HVAC guy’s recommendation was the throw the furnace in the attic to save space. Therefore there’s heat coming off the furnace although there’s no open vents/registers up there. A byproduct is that it keeps the ceilings in the living areas warmer, which is at the very least insulation or could be deemed radiant heat.

Even if all that wasn’t the case like presumably Danno and FOL above, making your attic straight outside air temp seems odd to me unless it’s doing major damage to your house in some way or another. Even if the attic space is 32 degrees instead of -10 it’s going to be keeping your living areas warmer. Not to mention people that convert their attic into living space or at least frequently used storage.

We bought a house three years ago and have a bonus room above the garage. One side of the garage roof had heat cables to prevent ice dams. Seller told me that it has always been a problem. There is easy access to the attic space so upon inspection I found exposed heat ducts that supplied the bonus room. Not only was there exposed ducts but the amount of insulation over the garage was laughable. The garage is heated so there was a double whammy. The lack of insulation was surprising as the rest of the house has more than enough, I would guess the attic over the rest of the house is R-60. I added two layers of fiberglass batts running in different directions to give it R 48. I also enclosed the ducts with styrofoam board with fiberglass on top. I took the heat cables off the roof and out of the gutters and have had zero problems since.

**Rideski** · 12-02-2019, 11:37 AM

Covered there but thanks. I installed fiberglass batts in the entire ceiling. The ducts are taped with aluminum tape on the seams, then wrapped and taped with fiberglass, then there are 2 more fiberglass batts taped in a ^ over them.

Open air screened vents on South and North side with an exhaust fan on auto timer of varying lengths depending on air temp.

**iceman** · 12-02-2019, 12:02 PM

I don't think there's a hell of a lot of difference between heating cable brands, they're pretty simple, I'd just look for something UL listed for the purpose.

**Rideski** · 12-02-2019, 12:39 PM

Cool, I’ll look for UL, hadn’t reaseached that yet. One of the differentiations between types seems to be if it can be doubled back on itself or not.

**::: :::** · 12-02-2019, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Rideski

Uh, kill me?

yeah, that's admittedly a bit strong

Conventional wisdom has historically skated by because marginal conditions weren't causing immediate damage. We're starting to realize that we can improve the system with marked improvements.

**Rideski** · 12-02-2019, 01:33 PM

Certainly not ideal, as expressed by the two different HVAC companies.
But they were both like, well in the scheme of things it’ll work for a while.

The one thing we didn’t discuss I’m curious why, is that although there’s an exterior cold air intake for the combustion, the cold living space air is returned from inside as per the diagram. I just learned a few days ago that in some cold climates they pipe the cold air from exterior to be forced through the furnace to interior. Seems like more energy to heat the super chilled air, but cause less draft indoors. Where’s the line in the sand in cost benefit there?