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  1. #1151
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    Sep 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirbumpsalot View Post
    Thanks, I have a couple quotes from standard GCs that swing a hammer but contract plumbing, flooring, electrical, windows and cabinets out. Both quotes about the same. A friend had suggested he used a larger company that had crews in house like he did - he said for him it was cheaper....however like you say I can't imagine keeping all those guys under your roof except a carpenter and maybe electrical. The 25% includes the supervision, they already have the subs they go to submit their quotes separately and their labor and then toss 25% over the whole thing and then add materials + 10-15% on that. I haven't ID'd a company with in house yet.
    Hard to tell without knowing the size of the job, area of the country, etc, but from what you are telling us I'd say that it sounds like you are looking at a reasonable deal - based on what I've seen lately. Especially if it's not a huge job.

  2. #1152
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    Oct 2017
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    139
    Quote Originally Posted by sirbumpsalot View Post
    Thanks, I have a couple quotes from standard GCs that swing a hammer but contract plumbing, flooring, electrical, windows and cabinets out. Both quotes about the same. A friend had suggested he used a larger company that had crews in house like he did - he said for him it was cheaper....however like you say I can't imagine keeping all those guys under your roof except a carpenter and maybe electrical. The 25% includes the supervision, they already have the subs they go to submit their quotes separately and their labor and then toss 25% over the whole thing and then add materials + 10-15% on that. I haven't ID'd a company with in house yet.
    In the last 40 years, I’ve worked for generals as well everything from a laborer to superintendent. And from guys that built a house a year to GC’s that did $100 million gross.

    I’ve never seen a GC that self performed even close to all work. Electrical, plumbing and mechanical all take special licenses and a cabinet shop has a lot of machine tools that need to be busy making cabinets.

    I have an idea that your friend was sold a bill of goods.

  3. #1153
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    Mar 2006
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    Beaverton, OR
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    267
    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Knocker View Post
    In the last 40 years, I’ve worked for generals as well everything from a laborer to superintendent. And from guys that built a house a year to GC’s that did $100 million gross.

    I’ve never seen a GC that self performed even close to all work. Electrical, plumbing and mechanical all take special licenses and a cabinet shop has a lot of machine tools that need to be busy making cabinets.

    I have an idea that your friend was sold a bill of goods.
    Job is in PNW, is basically a family room remodel, Kitchen partial, new floors in 3 rooms and resurface /stain entire first floor floors, paint 1/2 of first floor, refinish stairs, etc. ~$72,000 quoted + $18,000 O&P (25%)

    Friend's contractor was in SoCal and 3x the size of mine. His was lowest bid, but said the other two seemed to small and not experienced enough to handle job.

    I am just wondering about difference between an independent guy or couple of couple of guys sub-ing work out vs a big company that carries multiple crews on payroll ready to go on full jobs....is there any savings to one or the other or they end up the same cost in comparison.

  4. #1154
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    Jan 2010
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    your vacation
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirbumpsalot View Post
    Job is in PNW, is basically a family room remodel, Kitchen partial, new floors in 3 rooms and resurface /stain entire first floor floors, paint 1/2 of first floor, refinish stairs, etc. ~$72,000 quoted + $18,000 O&P (25%)

    Friend's contractor was in SoCal and 3x the size of mine. His was lowest bid, but said the other two seemed to small and not experienced enough to handle job.

    I am just wondering about difference between an independent guy or couple of couple of guys sub-ing work out vs a big company that carries multiple crews on payroll ready to go on full jobs....is there any savings to one or the other or they end up the same cost in comparison.
    there is no right or wrong answer to your question
    I've had this discussion many times over many years
    it blows donkey balls to be a customer because life's like a box of choclates and you never know what your gonna get
    trying to ask the right questions getting referals and all that shit is what will help the customer find the right contractor
    a contractor homeowner relationship is like an affair you want to make sure the is an attraction good sex and mutal combaitbility for the brief fling you have or else it's not going to work
    the internet is desperate to normalize and institutionalize contracting right down to a robotic assembly line with a fixed price they want to hook homeowners and contractors up like its an easy thing
    referals referal refearls
    it will never never work or happen

    here is some examples:
    big company nice office showroom lots of pizzaz high price they deliver a top notch product on time on budget, but wait they only have 8 workers when they need 12, they over booked and you get shafted

    chuck in a truck blowing bowls and smoke up your ass shows up one day and not the next underinsured and not really sure what he's doing becase he was a checker at walmart a week ago, then again chuck and his beater truck is there every day paying close attention to details he's a highly skilled guy that cares alot about your home and your project he only does one or two jobs at a time and is passionate about everything and reasonably priced because he has little overhead

    there is no answer

  5. #1155
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    394
    My cousin works in town and recently quoted a 10k job at 50k cause he didnt want the job. Told the guy the whole job would be done in a week.

    Dude hired him. We missed a day of fishing but it worked out well for him. He has a full crew, plumber, electrician, tile guy, finish etc. With everyone on payroll he scoops up some very overpriced jobs but guarantees quick work.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  6. #1156
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    Oct 2005
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    10,500
    I have an absolute ton of deck square footage across three floors, including a few different pergolas, deck railings and perimeter railings and the wood is generally rotting all over. Been spot fixing for years and I think itís finally time to bite the bullet and redo everything except I think the footings, beams and joists are all fine. Itís going to be a huge expense so I want to just do it right but obviously not pay more than need be.

    Iím wondering what the collective would recommend for the decking material. The decks get a ton of exposure and I live in rainy Seattle so Iím thinking composites or hardwoods. First priority is longevity but tempered against things like cost, weight and negative consequences of certain types like deck film/moss and upkeep. Just starting my research and know very little in this area.

    Any recommendations on decking materials to consider?


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  7. #1157
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
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    The Cone of Uncertainty
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    46,764
    This ad/article lays out the issues pretty well https://www.eaglebuildingsolutions.c...-deck-material

    It's really a personal sliding scale that includes cost, looks, durability, chemicals (from pressure treated) etc..

    We have a lot of 20-year-old cedar decking that is still holding up well with coats of Sikkens Cetol every 2-3 years. Damp mid-atlantic climate, hot in the summer pretty, cold in the winter. It did rot in a few spots that stayed wet but really it shouldn't have been built so it would stay wet in the first place and it hasn't rotted since those conditions were remedied. In the PNW cedar should be readily available, I'd use it again. It's a pretty soft material so it will scratch and wear, but to me that adds character and I'm okay with it.

    Ipe and some other tropical hardwoods are cool materials but they're expensive and some of it is illegally harvested.

    I personally don't like the composites and synthetics, to me they look cheap even when they're expensive.

    edit: for clearityness.
    Last edited by iceman; 08-16-2019 at 09:17 PM.

  8. #1158
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    Dec 2003
    Location
    Seattle
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    29,800
    Quote Originally Posted by Art Shirk View Post
    I have an absolute ton of deck square footage across three floors, including a few different pergolas, deck railings and perimeter railings and the wood is generally rotting all over. Been spot fixing for years and I think itís finally time to bite the bullet and redo everything except I think the footings, beams and joists are all fine. Itís going to be a huge expense so I want to just do it right but obviously not pay more than need be.

    Iím wondering what the collective would recommend for the decking material. The decks get a ton of exposure and I live in rainy Seattle so Iím thinking composites or hardwoods. First priority is longevity but tempered against things like cost, weight and negative consequences of certain types like deck film/moss and upkeep. Just starting my research and know very little in this area.

    Any recommendations on decking materials to consider?


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    Talk to oft's guy.

    He just did a great job on our rotten old deck.

    And our roof last year.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  9. #1159
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    May 2009
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    inpdx
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    11,752

    Home Remodel: Do, Don'ts, Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Shirk View Post
    Any recommendations on decking materials to consider?
    Ipe = Bombproof

    It loves lack of maintenance and hard use and lots of exposure

  10. #1160
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    Jan 2008
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    truckee
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    10,740
    If you are considering ipe you should look at the sustainability/environmental issue. https://www.terramai.com/blog/ipe-en...urcing-issues/ or find your own info.
    Not an issue in Seattle--not yet anyway--but fire resistance is an issue for us in California. Some composites have a good fire rating. (So does ipe apparently). If replacing the decking over existing structure span becomes an issue. And if the new material is a different thickness than the old, riser height of the first and last steps of a flight of stairs can be an issue, at least if you're building to code.

  11. #1161
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
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    10,500
    Ice - Iím with you on the aesthetics of natural wood. I just donít think it will hold up as long and Iím willing to trade a little in the appearance column for a little more in the longevity column. Iím going to keep this house indefinitely and want to minimize headaches. Iíve heard Ipe is awesome and may be the right aesthetic but for some reason I was worried about weight. Maybe that is unfounded and it doesnít matter but all my decks are built off of large slopes. And while I think some of the best looking decks are fairly natural wood color, or similarly stained, my set up here due to the house type and color, needs a very light color deck and I know I can get very specific on composite or polymer. Felt like that article was pushing polymer because that company sells it, but Iíll read up more on that.

    Brit - I will certainly ask oft about his guy. Having someone walk trough it with me and bid it would be good.

    Ac - thanks for seconding Ipe. On my list to consider. Cost of the material is one thing, but if Iím getting double binged for cost to install due to how hard it is to cut and secure, I get more dubious.

    Old Goat - thanks for the article. Honestly not sure how I feel about the environmental issue but need to probably figure out where I stand on it. Size is also a good consideration.


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  12. #1162
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    785
    I spec composites every time. Usually Trex. The lack of any needed maintenance, comfort under foot for bare feet, and lack of movement over time make it a no brainer unless the client is desperate for wood. If they are then itís Ipe or nothing. But I do my best to stay away from Ipe because I like rainforests.

    Composites every time. Simply a far superior product.


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  13. #1163
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    Hell Track
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post

    We have a lot of 20-year-old cedar decking that is still holding up well with coats of Sikkens Cetol every 2-3 years.
    X2 on this. We just bought a place with 3 decks, all roughly 20 years olds. One is cedar, one is redwood, and one is some unknown wood that's painted. Redwood and cedar decks both look good, and I'd venture a guess that neither of those decks have seen any real maintenance in at least a decade. The deck with painted mystery wood is in bad shape, with lots of boards that need replacing.

  14. #1164
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    Jan 2008
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    truckee
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    10,740
    We've been happy with Moisture Shield composite, but it's only 5 years old more or less so can't comment on longevity. (The problem with evaluating longevity of any product is that by the time you've had it for 20 years they're not making it the same any more.)

  15. #1165
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SF & the Ho
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    5,556
    Very happy w our ipe and feels awesome under foot. Itís heavy wood but that definitely shouldnít matter. I like composites too but they are definitely more involved of an install and they are not indestructible. Iíve seen plenty need to be replaced because they have degraded due to weather. Awesome product but itís not a no brainer. For less expensive than ipe, there are some good cedar options out there

  16. #1166
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    Dec 2007
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    Hell Track
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    What's the current consensus on the best bet for cordless tools? My current tools are mostly corded, but I have a couple bigger projects on the horizon that warrant buying some cordless stuff - I might buy one of those kits that includes a few batteries and a drill / sawzall / circular saw / etc.

    Leaning Milwaukee, but open to suggestions.

  17. #1167
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    Dec 2016
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    In a van... down by the river
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    3,667
    Quote Originally Posted by beece View Post
    I spec composites every time.
    Smart.

    We are coming up on 6 years since we had our deck replaced and we have done SQUAT WRT to maintenance. And other than a bit of discoloration on the cedar 4x4s, it is like the day it was installed.

    It does get *really* hot in the summer afternoons (west-facing deck).

  18. #1168
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
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    in a box on the porch
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    4,202
    With dentist money I can't believe no one is pouring a suspended slab with flag stone veneer, shesh, cheap skates.

  19. #1169
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    785
    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    What's the current consensus on the best bet for cordless tools? My current tools are mostly corded, but I have a couple bigger projects on the horizon that warrant buying some cordless stuff - I might buy one of those kits that includes a few batteries and a drill / sawzall / circular saw / etc.

    Leaning Milwaukee, but open to suggestions.
    I use Makita, and have for years, except a brief foray into Dewalt that ended in me switching back to Makita. Many of our subcontractors use Milwaukee - it's a favorite. I like some of their tools, but Makita still works best for me.

    This is a great deal for a brushless kit. Many places have it right now for the same price. Circular saw is not a full size 7 1/2 though - it's like 6.5" or something. Which for light homeowner work is likely fine.
    https://www.toolnut.com/makita-xt505...hoCCQMQAvD_BwE

  20. #1170
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    Oct 2003
    Location
    slc
    Posts
    10,564
    Trex deck I put in 12 years ago (sidebar: HFS, time flies) is still holding up great. Color has faded, but considering that I do nothing to it except hose it off occasionally I have no complaints. One would assume the new stuff is even better. I do live in the desert and not the PNWet, so YMMV.

  21. #1171
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    Hell Track
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    Quote Originally Posted by beece View Post
    I use Makita, and have for years, except a brief foray into Dewalt that ended in me switching back to Makita. Many of our subcontractors use Milwaukee - it's a favorite. I like some of their tools, but Makita still works best for me.

    This is a great deal for a brushless kit. Many places have it right now for the same price. Circular saw is not a full size 7 1/2 though - it's like 6.5" or something. Which for light homeowner work is likely fine.
    https://www.toolnut.com/makita-xt505...hoCCQMQAvD_BwE
    Right on. That is indeed a great deal. Looks like the local big box is offering the same deal. That might be a winner.

  22. #1172
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    Jan 2006
    Location
    Carbondale
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    10,375
    Quote Originally Posted by skaredshtles View Post
    Smart.

    We are coming up on 6 years since we had our deck replaced and we have done SQUAT WRT to maintenance. And other than a bit of discoloration on the cedar 4x4s, it is like the day it was installed.

    It does get *really* hot in the summer afternoons (west-facing deck).
    shouldn't it face up

  23. #1173
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
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    Hugh's Mom's House
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    11,829
    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    Right on. That is indeed a great deal. Looks like the local big box is offering the same deal. That might be a winner.
    All the money is in the batteries. If you are doing projects where you are tag-teaming a drill and an impact driver, you should have more than two batteries.

    And so I have to pitch DeWalt, because Murdoch's has a lot of pretty damn good sales on DeWalt stuff, including 2 for 1 batteries at their annaul DeWalt sale, which varies by date/store for some dumb reason. For example: https://www.murdochs.com/globalasset...le-group-4.pdf

    FWIW, I have been rocking DeWalt tools for like 15 years, formerly professionally, and I still have the same impact driver and drill from that time frame, and both work fine. They obviously get less use now, though.

  24. #1174
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Sandy, Utah
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    11,252
    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    Trex deck I put in 12 years ago (sidebar: HFS, time flies) is still holding up great. Color has faded, but considering that I do nothing to it except hose it off occasionally I have no complaints. One would assume the new stuff is even better. I do live in the desert and not the PNWet, so YMMV.
    1300sq ft of it being laid now on the new deck. I want low maintenance. I'll semi solid stain the framing pressure treated next summer. Another week and it should be done.

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    I wish i could be like SkiFishBum

  25. #1175
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    Apr 2005
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    The land of Genesee Cream Ale and homemade pierogies!
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    1,675

    Interesting comparisons of ipe, composite, cedar and PVC.

    They show a scratch removed from AZEK composite with only a heat gun, starts at 3:45.

    Sunscreen and insect repellent is also not good to get on your deck surface.
    ďThe best argument in favour of a 90% tax rate on the rich is a five-minute chat with the average rich person.Ē

    - Winston Churchill, paraphrased.

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