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  1. #1826
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    Im guessing this the GC cheaped out on his sub and doesn't want to eat shit on the new one.

    He should eat that shit sandwich and make it right though. I'd press for a different guy.
    Live Free or Die

  2. #1827
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    Quote Originally Posted by ::: ::: View Post
    If he's going to short arm this, you may need to start being an asshole to get him to perform.

    It is not your job to get his subs to perform. It is your job to pay him in a timely manner when the correct work has been done. That timely manner is entirely dependent on the work being done correctly...know what i'm sayin?



    maybe if that really is the best his sub can do, this ^^^ is the solution?
    Could be. I am gonna sleep on it and maybe get another opinion....however the 2nd opinion could be equally biased by a guy who wants the job and will tell me what I want to hear...lol. Tough situation.

    Sub told me that is best HE can do even if he reSands it would look the same way. He said he sanding ont he big sander with 120 grit, had to do to something eliminate bumps as half of floor was original and half of floor was "sewed" in new planks for added rooms. Because we were using a darker stain water based he can't go too fine or the stain would come out lighter. After applying he used a 3 head buffer between 2 finishes and then a 3rd and final top finish. Said something about a "maroon" pad he used? I know I've seen that mentioned somewhere. Didn't get the buffer grit # sorry.

    I am gonna offer up a final payment with a $5000 holdback until this is settled to the GC - rest of remodel was fantastic.

    Also said with time and curing these lines and scratches fade to the eye. Said a little shade of stain more so, butt hey also darken to more of a honey color.

  3. #1828
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    He is lying to you. Or an idiot. Not sure which is worse. Sanding to a finer grit will not inhibit stain absorption. Especially when we are talking about a few steps above 120 grit. Jesus christ.

  4. #1829
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    Quote Originally Posted by RootSkier View Post
    He is lying to you. Or an idiot. Not sure which is worse. Sanding to a finer grit will not inhibit stain absorption. Especially when we are talking about a few steps above 120 grit. Jesus christ.
    Could be - Other than him and the GC I haven't found anyone that says live with it. Couple family members had floors done same way with natural stain and said there were no swirls.

  5. #1830
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    Sanding beyond 120 will absolutely make the stain appear lighter, especially for a pigment stain. They work by depositing little pieces of pigment in irregularities in the surface. Dye stains work better, but it's a different look.

    Avoiding swirl marks using a pigment stain on light wood without going beyond 120 is pretty hard. They should have warned you about it beforehand. There are certain limitations with materials that cant really be overcome.

    The stair treads are likely one piece, 1" thick glue ups, and they are usually closer to a quarter sawn cut than the floor planks. That difference will account for a lot of the difference in stain results.

    I would have had a talk with my clients about this stain color, and we definitely would have done samples using the same sanding methods as we'd use on the floor. My usual wood floor sub refuses to do dark stains for this reason.

    I don't have a great solution for you. If your contractor can't, and you find someone who can pull off that stain without swirl marks, I'd say it's his responsibility to fix it. The really shitty thing for you is that this process is going to count as a refinish and your floor only has so many in it.


    Sent from my LG-US998 using TGR Forums mobile app
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  6. #1831
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    On oak? For real? I guess I learned something new today.

  7. #1832
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    Re-sand and use a different stain or finish.

  8. #1833
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    Feb 2011
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    Doesn’t sanding with the grain using a drum or belt floor sander make this a non-issue?


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  9. #1834
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirbumpsalot View Post
    Sub is saying that he used 120 grit rough sand and followed up with the finer sands after but with the darker stains you will get this - sander has three rotating heads - he said he used the same stain color on his floor and has that too (Maybe he doesn't realize its him?) . Said you can only go so fine on sanding else the stain won't pick up in the wood? However it was pointed out that the stairs were perfect when using the hand sander. Since the GC is passing me the info, I think the explanation is lost. I'll have to see if we can get the sub here to explain.


    Yah I am a jong on floors. But it just doesn't seem right that I shouldn't get a nice clean finish no matter what color stain like on the stairs.
    Looks like loose pieces of 120 grit caught between the pad and the floor when he did the finer grits.

  10. #1835
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    Quote Originally Posted by muted View Post
    Shouldn't this be a GC issue? GC should know it was done right and take care of it, right? You don't need to talk the sub, that's the GCs job.

    Then again how contractors work makes no sense to me, I could be wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by RootSkier View Post
    Tell your GC you need the floors resanded by a different company.

    Nice work bags. And especially the final frame of the gif.
    Quote Originally Posted by ::: ::: View Post
    If he's going to short arm this, you may need to start being an asshole to get him to perform.

    It is not your job to get his subs to perform. It is your job to pay him in a timely manner when the correct work has been done. That timely manner is entirely dependent on the work being done correctly...know what i'm sayin?
    Quote Originally Posted by RootSkier View Post
    He is lying to you. Or an idiot. Not sure which is worse. Sanding to a finer grit will not inhibit stain absorption. Especially when we are talking about a few steps above 120 grit. Jesus christ.
    What they said!

    One of many the reasons you use a GC is to eliminate problems like this. If your guy doesn't get that point then it's time to get tough with him.
    “The best argument in favour of a 90% tax rate on the rich is a five-minute chat with the average rich person.”

    - Winston Churchill, paraphrased.

  11. #1836
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    Maybe the contrast in the swirls will fade over time, but you will not be able to not see them every time you look down.

  12. #1837
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    Quote Originally Posted by powdrhound View Post
    Maybe the contrast in the swirls will fade over time, but you will not be able to not see them every time you look down.
    Thats what the flooring guy says. However I got the idea he was just covering himself with some of the things he said....What climbereven says approaches what he was trying to explain, but he didn't do as good a good job if it.

    We were warned about dark floor stains (scratches will she up more, more imperfections in wood will show, dirt/dust/crumbs will be more apparent, harder to keep clean looking, etc) but since its just the two of us, everyone assured us we'd be fine....we didn't have kids....no dogs, etc..no one else notices the swirls, but I think since its a dark stain its not as obvious. I just personally know that they shouldn't be there so I see them right away. Only in a few places can you see it from a 6 ft height....you mainly have to get to a 2-4ft level before you really see them....like in the picture it looks like someone got a haircut there as the lines are very thin. Just not what I would have expected from a floor.

    GC I think would eat it if he agreed it was a clear error by his man....however since his experience on a dark stain seems to be weak, he seems to just be waiting for my reaction first. I don't blame him, he wants me to be happy, but he also just doesn't want to give in at a whim to any customer complaint if it might be unreasonable. I don't doubt after this he will step up his warning to customers.

    Got a friend's rec on his go-to guy and he will come over and give us his (hopefully unbiased) opinion. GC will be there for it too today.

  13. #1838
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    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    .
    The stair treads are likely one piece, 1" thick glue ups, and they are usually closer to a quarter sawn cut than the floor planks. That difference will account for a lot of the difference in stain results.
    Sent from my LG-US998 using TGR Forums mobile app

    Just to clear this up....we have two landings in which the same 3/4" red oak planks were used and thats where I am making the comparison (apples to apples). There were obviously hand sanded so I know the proper sanding finish CAN be done. It was argued that the guy wasn't gonna hand sand the entire floor.

  14. #1839
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirbumpsalot View Post
    Thats what the flooring guy says. However I got the idea he was just covering himself with some of the things he said....What climbereven says approaches what he was trying to explain, but he didn't do as good a good job if it.

    We were warned about dark floor stains (scratches will she up more, more imperfections in wood will show, dirt/dust/crumbs will be more apparent, harder to keep clean looking, etc) but since its just the two of us, everyone assured us we'd be fine....we didn't have kids....no dogs, etc..no one else notices the swirls, but I think since its a dark stain its not as obvious. I just personally know that they shouldn't be there so I see them right away. Only in a few places can you see it from a 6 ft height....you mainly have to get to a 2-4ft level before you really see them....like in the picture it looks like someone got a haircut there as the lines are very thin. Just not what I would have expected from a floor.

    GC I think would eat it if he agreed it was a clear error by his man....however since his experience on a dark stain seems to be weak, he seems to just be waiting for my reaction first. I don't blame him, he wants me to be happy, but he also just doesn't want to give in at a whim to any customer complaint if it might be unreasonable. I don't doubt after this he will step up his warning to customers.

    Got a friend's rec on his go-to guy and he will come over and give us his (hopefully unbiased) opinion. GC will be there for it too today.
    Not sure GC should be present for the other sub to review, but if sub is ok with it, I guess it's not the end of the world...

    Quote Originally Posted by sirbumpsalot View Post
    Just to clear this up....we have two landings in which the same 3/4" red oak planks were used and thats where I am making the comparison (apples to apples). There were obviously hand sanded so I know the proper sanding finish CAN be done. It was argued that the guy wasn't gonna hand sand the entire floor.
    Method isn't your responsibility; your responsibility is to pay when the job is completed satisfactorily.


    You are human and can understand best efforts applied, but also you are just the client. You aren't a flooring expert or directing methodology. Did the GC or sub make any disclaimer of quality based on their proposed methods of work? (Dark surfaces showing dirt is irrelevant.) Did you direct or change their proposed methods? Or did you accept that the install would be less than a high quality installation? If the sub knew where it was headed and said nothing, how were you supposed to know? Were you apprised of the circular scratches prior to work starting? If not...you are sympathetic to the extra work he needs to do, but, again, not your problem.


    Questions to move forward:
    Assuming it can, how can it be made right? How long would that take?
    (Did the sub account for this given his expert knowledge of installation?)

    What is this worth to you? Is it going to irritate you to no end? [You have to live with the space, not the GC or sub.]
    You are tied in contract with this GC. He has the right to make the work up to standard before any alternate contractor is brought in.
    It seems like you could stand your ground and be an asshole and make him eat it to get it right...or maybe you propose a split in the labor required to get it right...GC bills sub at cost, minus 50% (ie split it)...? Is it worth paying a little more to acknowledge that the sub is doing more work & you are getting the product you always expected?

  15. #1840
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    ^ I'll second what he said.

    The two main points being "Method isn't your responsibility; your responsibility is to pay when the job is completed satisfactorily." and "did you accept that the install would be less than a high quality installation?"
    “The best argument in favour of a 90% tax rate on the rich is a five-minute chat with the average rich person.”

    - Winston Churchill, paraphrased.

  16. #1841
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody Famous View Post
    ^ I'll second what he said.

    The two main points being "Method isn't your responsibility; your responsibility is to pay when the job is completed satisfactorily." and "did you accept that the install would be less than a high quality installation?"

    Had 2nd opinion. Just let him look and give it rather than explain. Guy felt it was an "OK" job based on the excess stain on the edges of the existing (not new) floors. However for the swirls he basically said the same thing as CLIMBEREVAN and our flooring guy, that when they do dark floors like that they belt sand first, then sand with a 3 headed machine to even out the floor and prevent "waves". Says 120 Grit as well...going any higher gets you way lighter shade than intended. Said they used 150 some time ago but found 120 was best. Wet the grain to get it to stand up before applying. Felt that the sanding job was good and the swirling was acceptable and expected with stain and process. Only fix he could recommend would to find the specific few boards that you can see the swirls from 6ft and mask off, resand, and redo...however finish may or may not blend well with existing finish. Said that he could resand whole floor and redo himself, but it would probably end up the same with the exception of the darker stain edges.

    I decided things are consistent and accepted the job as is.


    Thanks for all the help and advise. I learned a lot.

  17. #1842
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    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirbumpsalot View Post
    Had 2nd opinion. Just let him look and give it rather than explain. Guy felt it was an "OK" job based on the excess stain on the edges of the existing (not new) floors. However for the swirls he basically said the same thing as CLIMBEREVAN and our flooring guy, that when they do dark floors like that they belt sand first, then sand with a 3 headed machine to even out the floor and prevent "waves". Says 120 Grit as well...going any higher gets you way lighter shade than intended. Said they used 150 some time ago but found 120 was best. Wet the grain to get it to stand up before applying. Felt that the sanding job was good and the swirling was acceptable and expected with stain and process. Only fix he could recommend would to find the specific few boards that you can see the swirls from 6ft and mask off, resand, and redo...however finish may or may not blend well with existing finish. Said that he could resand whole floor and redo himself, but it would probably end up the same with the exception of the darker stain edges.

    I decided things are consistent and accepted the job as is.


    Thanks for all the help and advise. I learned a lot.
    Called water pop..wetting to raise grain. For some finish tables they will do it between sanding grits. See Rubio website. Those folks know refinishing. Don't know what you put on it, but anyone asks me it's Rubio monocoat..

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    I wish i could be like SkiFishBum

  18. #1843
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidog View Post
    Called water pop..wetting to raise grain. For some finish tables they will do it between sanding grits. See Rubio website. Those folks know refinishing. Don't know what you put on it, but anyone asks me it's Rubio monocoat..

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using TGR Forums mobile app
    Was Bona "Graphite" stain.

  19. #1844
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirbumpsalot View Post
    Just to clear this up....we have two landings in which the same 3/4" red oak planks were used and thats where I am making the comparison (apples to apples). There were obviously hand sanded so I know the proper sanding finish CAN be done. It was argued that the guy wasn't gonna hand sand the entire floor.
    One way to do it
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    Gustave Caillebotte, The Floor Scrapers. One of my favorite paintings

  20. #1845
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    NTTAWWT.

  21. #1846
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    Spring break trip canceled, but still gonna take the time off work. I'm going to build a treehouse this week, and have no idea where to start. Plan is to build a platform off the face of the trunk, rather than having the trunk come through the middle of the floor. Any sage advice or resources before I dive in?
    Remind me. We'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.

  22. #1847
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    News Stories today are all about Lowe’s, HD, etc being over crowded by all the sudden desire to complete home improvement and garden projects

  23. #1848
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    Open for more ridicule here. Last fall I decided to tear off the deck and replace with concrete pad. Got tired of painting the wood. I thickened the edges 12 inches thinking that would cover if I wanted to enclose as sun room. I removed all organics prior to forming. Brought in clean gravel and used water and compactor over two days prior to pouring. The area is 10x16. so being I have a bunch of free time now I decided to frame it in. Like an idiot I applied for a building permit. They say I have to go down 3ft for footing under slab. I have no intention of doing this. Wondering what choices I have? My thought is just blow off the building permit. I paid cash so no liens. Not concerned about selling later. Probably own till I go to the nursing home or turn into rental. So is it possible to have a come to jesus moment with the building department or do I just say screw it and build?
    off your knees Louie

  24. #1849
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    Fuck tha police!

    Only thing I had to worry about when I commando'd some projects nosy neighbors who might want to blab.

  25. #1850
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFD View Post
    Open for more ridicule here. Last fall I decided to tear off the deck and replace with concrete pad. Got tired of painting the wood. I thickened the edges 12 inches thinking that would cover if I wanted to enclose as sun room. I removed all organics prior to forming. Brought in clean gravel and used water and compactor over two days prior to pouring. The area is 10x16. so being I have a bunch of free time now I decided to frame it in. Like an idiot I applied for a building permit. They say I have to go down 3ft for footing under slab. I have no intention of doing this. Wondering what choices I have? My thought is just blow off the building permit. I paid cash so no liens. Not concerned about selling later. Probably own till I go to the nursing home or turn into rental. So is it possible to have a come to jesus moment with the building department or do I just say screw it and build?
    Experience says building construction codes are there for a reason (to protect you from yourself...). You're in a very different part of the country than I am, so its hard to be specific. And you'll have cold region influences factored into your codes.

    There are also insurance issues to consider, something fails years from now, ins. co. investigates, finds work not done to then current code or standards, you lose.
    “The best argument in favour of a 90% tax rate on the rich is a five-minute chat with the average rich person.”

    - Winston Churchill, paraphrased.

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