Toyota Camshaft/Timing Chain repair costs?

[Pegleg]

My 2008 Highlander with 72K miles on it has started making a brief (1 second) grinding noise right after starting it if it's been sitting for a bit (it won't make the noise if I immediately turn it off and on again). Sounds like this:



I described it to the dealer service guy but the car wouldn't do it while I was there. He said, based on my description, it sounds like an issue with the timing chain gear assembly, which they've seen before, and that I'd be looking at $2500+ to repair it (they have to remove the engine and basically take the car apart to get to it). Googling around indicated it may be related to the camshaft gears (I have no idea what that means or whether it's the same thing the dealer mentioned).

Does this make sense to any car-savvy mags? Am I really looking at $2500+ to repair this? If so, it would make sense for me to just buy an extended warranty for $2K that would cover it instead, and then have coverage for other things until 100K miles.

[Bruce Springskiin]

While I have not had this problem, luckily. They are talking in the same area between timing chain gears, and cam shaft. The chain connects the bottom half of the motor(crankshaft and pistons) with the top half of the motor (cylinder heads, can shafts and valves). It ensures that the two halves work together. It is pretty critical. There is a little more magic going on with variable valve timing. I would expect that this is where the problem is. That noise is not good, as something is getting beaten up everytime. It is worth getting done, the timing chain was going to need to be changed by around 100,000mi anyways, consider this as part of your cost. I would really look into this being covered by Toyota as they are having a similar problem on other vehicles. If you are going to eat the bill, the extended warranty may make sense, but make sure they will honor that under the warranty first and it is not like a preexisting condition.

[Pegleg]

Thanks. A little more google magic indicates that apparently Toyota has been willing to cover this under the powertrain warranty but that only goes to 60K miles, so the chances of them covering it for me seem slim. Really appreciate the input.

[Bruce Springskiin]

Bummer, no surprise they are not willing to cover it. If you can not get the extended warranty to cover it, you are going to have to buck up for the repair. In that case it would probably be worth looking for a good local independent Toyota mechanic. Should save you some money. And consider getting other routine maintenance done while things are torn a part; such as the timing chain, and water pump.

[Pegleg]

The dealer seemed to think the extended warranty will cover it (the service plan includes "variable valve timing component" coverage). It's sounding like that might be the direction to go in - the coverage is $2K, but at least then I'm not paying for anything for the next 30K miles.

[Cruiser]

If the dealer won't cover it under warranty then you ought to think about selling. Dropping that kind of cash on a ~$15k used car just doesn't seem to make good financial sense to me even if you do plan to continue driving it for a good long while.

[Pegleg]

If the dealer won't cover it under warranty then you ought to think about selling. Dropping that kind of cash on a ~$15k used car just doesn't seem to make good financial sense to me even if you do plan to continue driving it for a good long while.

Thought about this, but I'd have a hard time selling this to someone without disclosing that I'm aware of a potentially hugely expensive problem with it. If I hadn't taken it to a shop and had them give me a tentative diagnosis then I wouldn't have any issues, but of course then I wouldn't be thinking about selling it. As it is, I'd feel pretty shitty about selling it to someone unaware that they're likely to face a very expensive problem. Caveat emptor is one thing, but failing to disclose a known issue seems like another to me.

[Timberridge]

Toyota engines are pretty bulletproof, but I don't know this particular engine and its history.

Timing "chains" generally last for the life of an engine. Timing "belts" are usually good for 100K or so and are considered normal maintenance. The mechanical variable valve timing components do sometimes fail (they are hydraulic actuators that adjust the cam position depending on rpm). It depends on the engine, but if VVT components need to be replaced there is a bunch of stuff that likely needs to be removed like alternators, fan clutches etc. to get at the timing chain covers, but I've never heard of the engine needing to be pulled to do that. Some cars are worse than others as far as access, but pulling the engine is not SOP to replace timing belts and VVT components. But again, I am not familiar w this engine.

Btw. Makes sure this noise is coming from the engine and not the starter (bad bendix). I'd take it for another opinion .

[Pegleg]

Toyota engines are pretty bulletproof, but I don't know this particular engine and its history.

Timing "chains" generally last for the life of an engine. Timing "belts" are usually good for 100K or so and are considered normal maintenance. The mechanical variable valve timing components do sometimes fail (they are hydraulic actuators that adjust the cam position depending on rpm). It depends on the engine, but if VVT components need to be replaced there is a bunch of stuff that likely needs to be removed like alternators, fan clutches etc. to get at the timing chain covers, but I've never heard of the engine needing to be pulled to do that. Some cars are worse than others as far as access, but pulling the engine is not SOP to replace timing belts and VVT components. But again, I am not familiar w this engine.

Btw. Makes sure this noise is coming from the engine and not the starter (bad bendix). I'd take it for another opinion .

Will definitely get a second opinion before doing anything. The Highlander has a timing chain (not belt), and this problem does appear to be common enough with Highlanders and Rav4s that there's a good bit of internet chatter about it.

[adrenalated]

The engine usually doesn't need to come out to do a timing chain or belt. As noted, chains usually last the life of the vehicle but that noise definitely could be bad gears/chain. Timber's suggestion to make sure it's not the starter is good, as they can make a ton of really bad noise but are easy and cheap to replace.

If it is the timing chain, get it fixed ASAP. Your engine (assuming it's the 3.5L V6 2GR-FE engine) is an interferance engine, which means that if the chain jumps a gear or breaks, your pistons hit the valves and bend them all. Then you're replacing the chain, gears, AND all the valves. $2500 sounds expensive but not unreasonable to replace chain and gears, though I'd try to go find a good independent shop and try to get it done for $1500-2000. Have the water pump and any seals they recommend replaced at the same time, it's easy when everything's all apart and will be a lot more expensive if you wait and they have to take it all apart again.

If it's the starter, you can keep driving it. Eventually the starter will fail and you'll be stranded, but it won't damage anything else on the engine. But it's so cheap to do a starter you might as well get it done right away (~$150-200).

Off the top of my head I can't think of anything else that noise is likely to be.

[El Chupacabra]

I described it to the dealer service guy but the car wouldn't do it while I was there. He said, based on my description, it sounds like an issue with the timing chain gear assembly, which they've seen before, and that I'd be looking at $2500+ to repair it (they have to remove the engine and basically take the car apart to get to it). Googling around indicated it may be related to the camshaft gears (I have no idea what that means or whether it's the same thing the dealer mentioned).

If the sound you are experiencing is the same as in that video, it's the VVTi (variable valve timing) gears -- related to the camshaft timing. This is not the same as replacing the timing chain, though it is in the same area of the motor.

The Highlander is a transverse motor design (motor is mounted sideways, like a front wheel drive car). It would not surprise me if the motor has to be pulled to do this work.

[Pegleg]

If the sound you are experiencing is the same as in that video, it's the VVTi (variable valve timing) gears -- related to the camshaft timing. This is not the same as replacing the timing chain, though it is in the same area of the motor.

The Highlander is a transverse motor design (motor is mounted sideways, like a front wheel drive car). It would not surprise me if the motor has to be pulled to do this work.

Yes, that's exactly what the service guy said - that it was the "timing chain gear assembly related to the variable valve timing system" (that's what I wrote down). He didn't specifically say the chain itself had to be replaced, but that it has something to do with the variable valve timing and that there's a ton of labor involved getting to the problem.

[4runnerfreak]

We bought our 2006 Avalon, ~June 2013 and it had the same starting sound as the OP. When we took a trip this thanksgiving(3 weeks ago) we had the failure resulting from this warning sound. After driving for 4 hours, the CEL came on(B2799, Engine immobilizer) and the car died 60 seconds later. It turns out that the sound is the timing gear wobbling(Loose bolts) on the VVT-i cam.


All three bolts backed themselves out of the timing cam and therefore the engine cam is no longer being timed(imagine valves crashing into pistons)
Here are the timing sensor locations and the rear timing cam with no bolts and front with.





I had to go get a new(used) motor for a swap as the tear down of the motor, analyze it and rebuild it, would end up costing more and take longer.
LAME

[mn_teleswede]

.... that there's a ton of labor involved getting to the problem.

ALong the same lines- general area of engine....
I am a die hard Toyota fan, but when recently shopping for a new/ used vehicle for my wife I stayed clear of the new Highlander due to the labor costs involved with maintenance I knew would be inevitable. I.e - most waterpumps need to be replaced between 125k and 175k miles on the odometer= essentially a foregone conclusion that it will have to be done at some point in the near future when purchasing a used one with 100K plus miles on the odometer. Dealer quotes are over $3k/ (my mechanic is over $2k) due to the fact that the whole engine needs to be pulled to get at the water pump. I love my 2000 4Runner, but that was a stupid design IMHO.

[splat]

If the sound you are experiencing is the same as in that video, it's the VVTi (variable valve timing) gears -- related to the camshaft timing. This is not the same as replacing the timing chain, though it is in the same area of the motor.

The Highlander is a transverse motor design (motor is mounted sideways, like a front wheel drive car). It would not surprise me if the motor has to be pulled to do this work.

Yes, that's exactly what the service guy said - that it was the "timing chain gear assembly related to the variable valve timing system" (that's what I wrote down). He didn't specifically say the chain itself had to be replaced, but that it has something to do with the variable valve timing and that there's a ton of labor involved getting to the problem.

Sounds about right. What's the cost to get a slightly used motor ($1000?) and swap it out ($600?).

edit: just saw 4runnerfreaks story...will a tundra engine swap over? did they have a transverse motor on any year?

[4runnerfreak]

The motor that we got had 76k miles for $2250 + $690 to swap it.

[creaky fossil]

While I have not had this problem, luckily. They are talking in the same area between timing chain gears, and cam shaft. The chain connects the bottom half of the motor(crankshaft and pistons) with the top half of the motor (cylinder heads, can shafts and valves). It ensures that the two halves work together.

not really the best way to describe the function, you make it sound like the timing chain is what keeps the heads fastened to the block etc. it only "connects the two halves" because of v-configuration and OHC situation mandating that sort of orientation. in an L block engine it doesn't look like it's "connecting two halves" and really the only "connects the two halves" feature in practice is due to the camshaft being at a different location than the crankshaft, and in 99% of piston (not rotary) engines there is always physical distance between crankshaft and camshaft.

the timing chain and the gears used at the crankshaft and camshaft ends are like a bicycle's chain on a singlespeed, and in function, combined with the rest of the breathing system's drivetrain (cam followers pushrods rocker arms/actuators valve springs valves) they are what make the valves open and close in the proper sequence for multiple cylinder firing. that's why they're important. not because they "join two halves together."

[Pegleg]

OP here. In case anyone is still paying attention, I did finally get a solid diagnosis of the noise in my 2008 Highlander (dealer was able to reproduce it) and it is indeed the VVT-i gear bolts backing out, same as 4runnerfreak above. Quote to repair is $4500 ($1700 parts, $2800 labor), since I'm out of warranty (79,000 miles). However, since I did report the noise while it was still under warranty and the dealer was unable to diagnose it then, after some discussions Toyota has offered to cover the parts under warranty and the dealer is offering a discount on the labor, which brings the price down to $1934 total (all labor - apparently it's about 20 hours worth, which makes some sense after reviewing the procedures described in the service bulletin). They also offered to do the water pump (which is leaking) and drive belts while they're in there for no extra labor, just $300 in parts, bringing the total to $2234. Seems like that's probably the best deal I'm going to get. I called a local independent shop for comparison and haven't heard back yet, but I can't imagine they can do better if I'm getting $1700 in parts for free from Toyota.

What say the collective? I feel like Toyota and the dealer are being reasonable under the circumstances - would rather they cover it fully, obviously, but given that I'm 20K miles past the warranty and there's a ridiculous amount of labor involved, this seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

[mcski]

It seems like if the problem was reported while you were still under warranty, seems like they should cover it all. Consumer law experts speak. Otherwise price seems decent.

[Pegleg]

It seems like if the problem was reported while you were still under warranty, seems like they should cover it all. Consumer law experts speak. Otherwise price seems decent.

That's what I'd hoped, but I called Toyota directly and got nowhere after talking to 3 people. After enlisting the dealer to go to bat for me (sending in my service history to show that I'm a loyal Toyota customer, etc.), this is what was offered. Doesn't seem like they're going to do any better.

[skimaxpower]

^ The only way I could see you doing better is if you trade in the vehicle to the same dealership and buy something different. The 20 hours of labor doesn't cost them anything extra if they squeeze it in during their slow periods. You might be able to negotiate something pretty favorable.

[zeroforhire]

^ I would do that

[Pegleg]

^ The only way I could see you doing better is if you trade in the vehicle to the same dealership and buy something different. The 20 hours of labor doesn't cost them anything extra if they squeeze it in during their slow periods. You might be able to negotiate something pretty favorable.

Problem is, the dealer doesn't have anything we want used, and a new Highlander base model is north of $30K, which isn't in the cards right now. I'm OK with sinking the $2K on it now as long as it's going to run like a champ for the next 75K miles or so.

[fatnslow]

^ The only way I could see you doing better is if you trade in the vehicle to the same dealership and buy something different. The 20 hours of labor doesn't cost them anything extra if they squeeze it in during their slow periods. You might be able to negotiate something pretty favorable.

They pay techs for the job book rate, it doesn't matter how slow the shop is they still pay the same. No dealer in their right mind will give you shit for a car that needs major work.

[Pegleg]

Final closure - bill came to $2300, including new VVT-i gears, new water pump, new drive belts, new battery and new sparkplugs, plus an alignment (they did the plugs and alignment for free, as well as the warranty compromise on the gears and labor). Could've been worse, I suppose. Lesson learned: if your car starts making a weird noise, don't delay dealing with it and figure it's nothing important. Hopefully I'm good for the next hundred thousand miles.