Economic Impacts of Mountain biking Tourism

[bennymac]

Or just fork over cash money. People get recruited to work in bumfuck mines and wells all the time. The money helps. So would - gasp - expanding supply.

but then, the whole schtick bennymac had in that paragraph was "how do we make the town like Vancouver" to which the answer is: you can't.

toast's still clueless I see.

Expanding supply takes 12-16 years to implement. And you need MD's to train MD's so you can't just increase in one fell swoop - you have to do it incrementally. A group of government officials in the early 90s decided Canada had way too many doctors so they cut enrolment drastically. Around 1998 they realised they screwed up.

It's 2014 and we're still trying to fix that mistake. As a result it means I can easily find work in every populated place in our huge country. Great for me! Bad for sick people.

[bodywhomper]

I didn't see it mentioned yet, but the USFS forest plans are supposed to evaluate the economics of forest use differently.
"It focuses on outcomes, rather than outputs, and will help units identify their unique roles in the broader landscape and create land management plans to guide proactive contributions to ecological, social, and economic sustainability. The 2012 planning rule emphasizes collaboration, requires improved transparency, and strengthens the role of public involvement and dialogue throughout the planning process. It also requires the use of the best available scientific information to inform decisions." http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/planningrule/faqs

the concepts seem nice, the implementation is in its infancy.

[creaky fossil]

Now - imagine you are hired to recruit professionals to this town. What's your strategy?

I don't know the town, so I really can't tell you. I'm a holistic thinker with a strong sense of place, and without spending time there I'm not really able to figure out what of this town would compel a recently minted MD to go there. But with that said...

I'm not sure what drives people to become MDs outside the obvious answers of income and prestige. The idea of helping fellow humans with an acquired warehouse of health related knowledge, because you love science and find it relatively easy and maybe also have a prodigious memory that enables quick access for diagnostics and insight, seems very low on the list of priorities for MDs, in my experience. Which is a shame. Also a shame that cultures like the USA glorify MDs and health workers, leading to inflated expectations. Again, a shame. But, y'know, it is what it is.

Does every graduate without exception want an urban placement with intellectually challenging cases, and if so, is it realistic for each such new graduate to believe he/she will land such a position? When I finished law school nearly everyone I knew wanted a job with a big firm or smaller boutique firm where they did intellectually challenging stuff but truth be told, such jobs went to maybe 5-10% of those who passed the bar from my class. What people wanted wasn't there. Apparently it's lots worse now, some 25 yrs later.

Some people like to cook their own meals and of those, some even like growing what they cook. Does anyone of this small latter category ever earn an MD?

My feeling about getting a job anywhere is that honesty about the job and its situation tends to yield the most durable placements. Deceptions tend to create early ship-jumping when placed candidate lives the comparison of Idea Sold to Truth Experienced. I suppose an honest description of the town, not apologizing for or demeaning its from-an-urban-perspective=negative qualities, would increase the chances.

But I'm not in the line of work that places MDs in remote locations, so I don't know what my thoughts would help with here. I can imagine certain people would be interested in such a placement, but they'd hardly be the same folks gunning for a metro Vancouver slot, and wouldn't need the same sales pitch you'd need to persuade the gunning-for-Vancouver candidate.

When I decided to move to McBoulder, my GF's first Q to me was: "Can you get food delivered at 4AM there?" There's an example of what some people expect when going somewhere new to them and, I suppose, a frighteningly non-urban, non-sophisticated sounding sort of place. This ex-GF of mine wasn't in health care, but either way, she's not the kind of person you'd get to take that remote MD placement job. You wouldn't look for someone like her and if smart, you wouldn't try to sell her on it with shadings and puffery.

I dunno, I suppose it's punt on 4th down for me. How did they get Joel Fleischmann to move to Cicely on Northern Exposure? Wasn't it $$$?

[toast2266]

diggin the adversary angle there, bubs. do you imagine we're in Helena before the Supremes?

do you know when I first spent time in McBoulder? I'm pretty sure it was 10+ yrs before you got there. are you aware of how much and how fast it changed? a lot of those changes were in place when you arrived. so they don't seem big to you, nor to Stuckboy, nor to anyone else who arrived post-boom-of-yups. the yup quotient here was maybe 10% when I first visited. maybe. Gail Gutsche, Uncle Milty, maybe a couple others. no yuppie eateries. 1 yuppie trinket store. never a backup at a red light except VanBuren/Broadway on Griz Game Day. no McMansions up Grant Creek. no devt in Miller Creek. South Hills stopped 100' shy of where it is today. most of Rattlesnake Drive was an orchard and open land. only Costco and Karl Tyler on Reserve. Reserve was like a funny joke with all that capacity and nobody on it.

I don't need to be told "things change," I've got enough rings on the trunk to know that, have seen it happen in many of the places I've lived in my life -- but nowhere as fast or as character-of-place changing as McBoulder's.

funny, Yaak Cabin. what's next? a Kaczynski comparison? sheesh. the smug is oozing.

Oh - I don't doubt for a second that Missoula has significantly and quickly changed, nor am I trying to argue that it's a particularly good thing. That's part of the reason I didn't stick around for long. I'd speculate that the source of that change has less to do with urbanites gentrifying the mountains and more to do with the fact that 1/5 of the town's population is college kids, but that's probably beside the point.

I'm just saying that there are plenty of really nice mountain locales that are pretty removed from the amenitization that you're not a fan of with the Yaak being one nearby option (admittedly there are some odd folks there, but I actually think it's a pretty fantastic area; you mistook a legitimate example for snark). There are plenty of other awesome, rural mountain towns devoid of douchiness to be found.

[Hugh Conway]

yeah, there's this vast sea of mountain towns out there without assholes. In the land of the internet. according to some dude who needs a nosegay to travel.

but then you blamed college kids for changing the town. best to always point that finger somewhere else booster.

bennymac- if you are arguing the problem is MDs and the industry MDs created, I'd agree, but I don't think that's the point you were trying to make getting all MDy.

[toast2266]

No, assholes are everywhere. Especially the internet. But there are plenty of mountain towns that aren't overrun with the particular breed of assholes that are the topic of this discussion.

[creaky fossil]

you mistook a legitimate example for snark

unpossible, I never do that, especially when I have a little snark to give in rebuttal! probably unfair of me to swap back and forth between serious and satire, eh?

I don't think the students at 20% of populace is what caused it -- not at all. think about it. Towns everywhere in the USA with small colleges or uni campuses with significant impact on population by number. Most who go to a college/uni don't integrate into the town, they integrate into the campus, which tends to be its own little town within the town, following its own rules, etc. If the 20% was the breaking point, the yup-boom would have happened longer ago, as the uni hasn't really grown while the town has! IMO you can trace it back to the tenure of Mike Kadas as Mayor, IMO. But the town's always been snooty compared to the rest of the state, that part of the problem I can't argue against. My point is only that the relative snootiness was well hidden by % of populace, and probably seen only if you were invited to a Lambros dinner party or one of Denny Washington's soirees.

The problems created by gentrification that I'm talking about, I suppose someone could say that I'm just (a) being an invert-elitist, or (b) annoyingly advocating el diablo's view, or (c) just trying to fuck with people like jamesp who like their amenities. Apart from the little bits I tossed at you & shirk above, I'm being serious with my views here, partly because of what I prefer, and partly because I've worked with people who have been crushed by the gentrification and have seen how it creates friction and strife in the home/household, and bitterness toward fellow townspeople. I'm not making that up, not arguing it for argument's sake, not trying to pee in anyone's Cheerios. It's just what I've seen, and it's not really anything that makes me feel good about this town's direction.

No, assholes are everywhere. Especially the internet. But there are plenty of mountain towns that aren't overrun with the particular breed of assholes that are the topic of this discussion.

for the love of flying spaghetti monster, let's not list them.

[Hugh Conway]

No, assholes are everywhere. Especially the internet. But there are plenty of mountain towns that aren't overrun with the particular breed of assholes that are the topic of this discussion.

you speak of this bounty based on your personal experience, of course? you need a critical mass of assholes to support the "amenities" people here want in a "cool mountain town"

[toast2266]

I don't think the students at 20% of populace is what caused it -- not at all. think about it. Towns everywhere in the USA with small colleges or uni campuses with significant impact on population by number. Most who go to a college/uni don't integrate into the town, they integrate into the campus, which tends to be its own little town within the town, following its own rules, etc. If the 20% was the breaking point, the yup-boom would have happened longer ago, as the uni hasn't really grown while the town has! IMO you can trace it back to the tenure of Mike Kadas as Mayor, IMO. But the town's always been snooty compared to the rest of the state, that part of the problem I can't argue against. My point is only that the relative snootiness was well hidden by % of populace, and probably seen only if you were invited to a Lambros dinner party or one of Denny Washington's soirees.

The problems created by gentrification that I'm talking about, I suppose someone could say that I'm just (a) being an invert-elitist, or (b) annoyingly advocating el diablo's view, or (c) just trying to fuck with people like jamesp who like their amenities. Apart from the little bits I tossed at you & shirk above, I'm being serious with my views here, partly because of what I prefer, and partly because I've worked with people who have been crushed by the gentrification and have seen how it creates friction and strife in the home/household, and bitterness toward fellow townspeople. I'm not making that up, not arguing it for argument's sake, not trying to pee in anyone's Cheerios. It's just what I've seen, and it's not really anything that makes me feel good about this town's direction.

You may well be right - you've got way more time in mizzou than I do. But that town always felt much more like Austin, TX with some hills around it than, for instance, Breckenridge or one of the other fully amenitized Colorado mountain towns. I pegged that for the influence of the college, but maybe that's not the case.

for the love of flying spaghetti monster, let's not list them.

Not planning on it. Well, except for the Yaak I guess. But I figure that place is pretty safe, at least for the time being. It's low on "amenities."

[bennymac]

No one would argue that prestige plays a role in career choice for a lot of MDs. I'm sure a lot of lawyers and dentists fall into that category as well.

We accept that MDs are bright people. And as such we'd have to think of them as both bright and bat-shit insane if they were going into medicine for the income. Your plastic surgeons and ophthalmologists (who are also surgeons) do 6-7 years of poorly paid residency training - and this is after the previous 8 years of university. These are the highest paid MDs in British Columbia and some of them can bill around a million a year before taxes and before expenses. There are around 6 doctors who bill at this level in BC.

The average doctor bills $300,000 - before taxes (so cut that down to $210,000) and before staff and office expenses. Probably works out to about $90/hour. That's great take home pay. I have zero complaints about how I'm paid. MD's are paid handsomely because of the training they've done and the responsibility their job entails - if you think about that statement I feel it makes sense to pay them well.

What's the average pay of a high level corporate executive? What's the average pay of a trader in the financial system? What's your average lawyer take home per hour? What's the repercussion of a medium sized mistake committed by those people in their jobs? People harp on docs not because we're paid a lot - but because we're paid a lot AND we have a prestigious job AND we're supposed to be kind, caring people who should be doing this work pro bono. I'm not complaining about it. I'm secure enough and old enough to know I'm not a greedy asshole. I started earning this income at 33. I'd be wealthier if I went into plumbing right out of high school.

If a person was motivated purely by money they would not choose medicine. Ask any accountant and they'll back me up on that.

As for my other points I was purely trying to show that it's more than money. Sure some people don't want the same amenities I do. Some people find different aspects of a job satisfying. Some people want Whistler Bike Park - some people are happy to make their own way through the woods. That's my point. There's enough choice out there for people to find a place that fits them. But it's not just Vancouver or Shit-town and no other choices available. And if you find a place that fits you the you don't have to change it.

But I understand where you're coming from with regards to gentrification of mountain towns to make them Whistlers or Boulders. For what it's worth I'm driving away from Vancouver tomorrow morning (I should be packing instead of blogging here). I'm moving to a town of 1200 people that is 2000 miles away - close to the arctic circle - a place with nearly perpetual darkness 4 months of the year. I'm giving up some things and gaining some things. And I couldn't be happier. But I'd be choked if someone came in and put in a Starbucks or a place that serves fast food at 4am.

[Name Redacted]

You gents are trying to categorize people, towns, "Amenities", occupations, social classes, and professions into pretty little boxes that you can stuff away into their own cute little compartments that you created based on your own personal biases formed by your unique experiences.

Go ahead, type up another blog entry. Doing pretty good for a SR thread right?

Hey bennymac, you got any openings for US dentists up in America's top hat?

[XXX-er]

Every time a South African doctor retires we need to find at least 2 Canadian ones to fill their shoes. But there isn't an endless supply of them - and their are serious ethical issues with our extremely prosperous country "recruiting" (stealing) doctors from other potentially less prosperous countries

Small towns often have to think outside the box with regards to recruitment of professionals. Could having amazing recreational amenities be part of the solution? It would work on me.

We don't want to live in a no-fun shithole (by our standards). We also don't want to live in Vancouver or anyplace like it. Thankfully not everything is one end of the spectrum or the other. There are enough choices that we can find places that provide what we value as important (sense of community, good environment for raising children in a way we value, satisfying professional career, ability to easily walk or bike everywhere, good trails for riding bikes and trail running, a couple good options for meals/drinks outside the house.)

My wife (also an MD) and I are unlikely to settle somewhere where we can't ride our mountain bikes or run out our back door and eventually onto a 'good' trail network. And we will gladly take a sizeable pay cut if necessary to achieve that.
!

The old school MDs were used to working 60+ hr a week whereas the new breed of doctor values quality of life and a lot of them are women who are popping out the 2.2 babies to put in the SUV with the golden retriever SO they are sharing practices ... even i can do the math

we got lots of S.A. MD's and lots of part time MD's in smithers which is a sure sign of a rural town with good amenities OTOH if you break a bone you are SOL and gotta drive to kitimat/terrace/ PeeG, so I asked a MD bro WTF's with that is the pro into fishing ... apparently yes

[bennymac]

You gents are trying to categorize people, towns, "Amenities", occupations, social classes, and professions into pretty little boxes that you can stuff away into their own cute little compartments that you created based on your own personal biases formed by your unique experiences.

Go ahead, type up another blog entry. Doing pretty good for a SR thread right?

Hey bennymac, you got any openings for US dentists up in America's top hat?

I'm trying to paint them on a spectrum more than compartmentalize them into restrictive boxes. But I understand how that might be hard to see in amongst the 5,000 word essays I've been churning out instead of packing my shit up here.

I'm moving to Canada's top hat tomorrow. There are no dentists in the town I'm moving to. And I get 70 miles to the gallon on my hog. Saddle up partner!

[bennymac]

The old school MDs were used to working 60+ hr a week whereas the new breed of doctor values quality of life and a lot of them are women who are popping out the 2.2 babies to put in the SUV with the golden retriever SO they are sharing practices ... even i can do the math

we got lots of S.A. MD's and lots of part time MD's in smithers which is a sure sign of a rural town with good amenities OTOH if you break a bone you are SOL and gotta drive to kitimat/terrace/ PeeG, so I asked a MD bro WTF's with that is the pro into fishing ... apparently yes

My wife and I both work 60 hours a week 40 weeks of the year.

Smithers is in a fortunate location to attract high achievers from any profession due to it's surrounding "amenities" (having that big gorgeous mountain basically inside your town limits for example.) Or that innovative backcountry zone you've built - there's some interesting parallels to that and the idea about building bike trails to increase a town's attractability.

I'd move to Smithers in a heartbeat too.

But there's not enough bones being broken/hips and knees needing replacement there to keep an orthopedic surgeon happy unless they too want to work part time. I've yet to meet a part-time surgeon.

[Name Redacted]

My post was mostly aimed at the CF mindset anyway.

So you are headed to AK? Guessing Fairbanks if you are lucky, but probably something more rural. I've had a few friends work medical jobs in rural AK and honestly, if you were getting out of school with the amount of debt some people have, it would be well worth your while to take advantage of some of the loan forgiveness.

[bennymac]

Dawson City, Yukon. From there one can see AK in the distance. No loan forgiveness but remote enough that the pay is much higher than what I could make in Vancouver.

But with great pay comes great responsibility. Fortunately I find that satisfying rather than frightening.

I wish there were more bike and running trails though...

[Vt-Freeheel]

...........

[SB]

What is the air speed velocity of an unlaided MD?

Sent from my Huawei-U8665 using TGR Forums

[Lindahl]

You mean unlaid?

[jamesp]

Unladen.

African MD or European?

[creaky fossil]

You gents are trying to categorize people, towns, "Amenities", occupations, social classes, and professions into pretty little boxes that you can stuff away into their own cute little compartments that you created based on your own personal biases formed by your unique experiences.

Go ahead, type up another blog entry. Doing pretty good for a SR thread right?

Hey bennymac, you got any openings for US dentists up in America's top hat?

Good job on bringin' the snark full-force here. You have no contrary/alternative view, just snark. Is that impressive? Does it show you a contemplative sort who sees much and ponders all of it? or does it make you look a prick?

My post was mostly aimed at the CF mindset anyway.

Please, help all who are not insightful like you.

What is this "CF mindset"?

....is little shredgnar a wee bit under the weather from haemorrhoids he got psychosomatically because of some time past when I satirized him roughly?

[Name Redacted]

Good job on bringin' the snark full-force here. You have no contrary/alternative view, just snark. Is that impressive? Does it show you a contemplative sort who sees much and ponders all of it? or does it make you look a prick?



Please, help all who are not insightful like you.

What is this "CF mindset"?

....is little shredgnar a wee bit under the weather from haemorrhoids he got psychosomatically because of some time past when I satirized him roughly?

Nah, I'm not that sensitive. But your blog entries have had very little to do with the original subject of the post and really, at the end of the day tend to contradict themselves. Your "I'm an old school boulderite" schtick was incredibly nauseating, so kudos for that.

So could you, in one sentence, state the point that you are trying to make from your convoluted diatribe and how it relates to mountain biking specifically?

[XXX-er]

Dawson City, Yukon. From there one can see AK in the distance. No loan forgiveness but remote enough that the pay is much higher than what I could make in Vancouver.

But with great pay comes great responsibility. Fortunately I find that satisfying rather than frightening.

I wish there were more bike and running trails though...

.


Sounds like you read one too many Robert Service poems, Dawson is WAY up there and SO fucking cold the town is built entirely on 2x4 cribbing on top of the permafrost but yer gona need a dog sled to take all the $$$ to the bank, get set to meet some real characters, do they break enough bones in Dawson?

A local GP did a very remote thing for many years, even tho there are 3 major food chains in town you always see his wife filling 2 shopping carts from force of habit ... a basic amenity we don't think about?

we actualy get a lot of Yukoners and AK'ers thru here to ski the Alpine/the xc/the Hankin so you are more likely to come here from Yukon than Vancover

[Hugh Conway]

But your blog entries have had very little to do with the original subject of the post

Discussing economic impacts has nothing to do with economic impacts? Phew, thanks for that core mountain bro who boxes himself with pride.

[markb]

An amenity in economics is just a desirable characteristic. It can be completely natural or completely artificial. Fields like real estate have their own more narrow definitions. The distinction is wrt characteristics people don't directly care about. Although it's typically associated with characteristics that aren't primarily "functional" as their value. They're more of ends than means. People "demand" amenities, and scarcity matters. Of course there's a huge range of what people like and dislike. But tourism boards, chambers of commerce, and big employers all need to market their place, try to find a niche.

People want different packages of amenities at different life stages, and that varies generationally. Some communities try to upgrade to match shifting demands, others fade away.

Work/play, labor/leisure, the distinctions aren't as great as they were 50 years ago when it comes to economic development.