Stiffer Lightweight Ski Mountaineering Skis?

[JTrue]

So I've been skiing the Cho Oyu's during the spring season. While I love the weight and the float I can't help but feel that they are a bit too soft for my liking. I haven't been on anything else comparable, so I'm wondering if anyone has any time on some of the other lightweight offerings that are a bit stiffer. ie Movement Response X, Movement Bond X, etc. I definitely want something with tip rocker and between 80-90 underfoot. Thoughts?

[Besniwod]

Haven't ridden it but maybe the G3 Zenoxide C88. The wider 105 Zenoxide is supposed to be stiff and light. This season the narrower Zenoxides had a heavier hybrid carbon fiberglass layup instead of the full carbon laminate in the 105. The narrower ones are supposed to get the full carbon laminate next season. Should make the C88 lighter but don't know about the stiffness so maybe someone else can chime in on that. The C88s are just renamed Spitfires with a different construction.

[hoarhey]

The C105 tail is pretty stiff. So the c88 might be good for you Jtrue. Tip rocker is pretty minimal, so I'd check if it's enough for you.

[shasti]

Drew Tabke uses the Praxis 9D8 in the ultralight core. Keith will make em stiff if you want. PM me if you want a code.

http://www.noahhowell.com/2014/05/ra...ccess-couloir/

[I've seen black diamonds!]

It's not as light as the skis you mention, but the Voile Vector is an excellent compromise for up and down. I've skied a hand full of ultralight skis over the years and found them useful, but not very fun. The Vector is. Its not a charger, but it can actually handle some speed on shitty snow and floats well. A good tune is important for hard snow performance.

[Lindahl]

Black Diamonds, where'd you find the Down Countdown 4, that you sold me, on that spectrum?

At 8lbs maybe not ultralight, but its definitely in the lightweight category. Its actually a pretty good charger too. Been really loving it this spring. Sounds like they're working on an even lighter layup - shaving off at least 1lb?

[hoarhey]

So I've been skiing the Cho Oyu's during the spring season. While I love the weight and the float I can't help but feel that they are a bit too soft for my liking. I haven't been on anything else comparable, so I'm wondering if anyone has any time on some of the other lightweight offerings that are a bit stiffer. ie Movement Response X, Movement Bond X, etc. I definitely want something with tip rocker and between 80-90 underfoot. Thoughts?

What's the weight on the cho oyu's?
I'm guessing sub 6 lbs for the pair at their waist width of 88 mm?
1350 g/ski would be your rough target weight then?
Just trying to define your weight target.

[Jonathan S.]

I love these threads where the OP is very specific regarding what he wants in a ski [emphasis added]:

So I've been skiing the Cho Oyu's during the spring season. While I love the weight and the float I can't help but feel that they are a bit too soft for my liking. I haven't been on anything else comparable, so I'm wondering if anyone has any time on some of the other lightweight offerings that are a bit stiffer. ie Movement Response X, Movement Bond X, etc. I definitely want something with tip rocker and between 80-90 underfoot. Thoughts?

Then most responses are about favorite skis that are definitely outside what the OP wants:

Drew Tabke uses the Praxis 9D8 in the ultralight core.

98 instead of the specified 80-90

What's the weight on the cho oyu's?
I'm guessing sub 6 lbs for the pair at their waist width of 88 mm?
1350 g/ski would be your rough target weight then?
Just trying to define your weight target.

Instead of guessing, you could look it up:
http://skimo.co/dynafit-cho-oyu-skis
So actual measured weight (not spec) is almost exactly 5 pounds for the 174, or a few ounces over for the 182.

It's not as light as the skis you mention, but the Voile Vector is an excellent compromise for up and down.[...]

Voile is making some nice skis, but that's 94 in the 170, and 96 in the 180.

Black Diamonds, where'd you find the Down Countdown 4, that you sold me, on that spectrum?
At 8lbs maybe not ultralight, but its definitely in the lightweight category.[...]

So about 60% heavier the OP's current skis, with a 102 waist as compared to the specified 80-90 range.

Haven't ridden it but maybe the G3 Zenoxide C88. The wider 105 Zenoxide is supposed to be stiff and light. This season the narrower Zenoxides had a heavier hybrid carbon fiberglass layup instead of the full carbon laminate in the 105. The narrower ones are supposed to get the full carbon laminate next season. Should make the C88 lighter but don't know about the stiffness so maybe someone else can chime in on that. The C88s are just renamed Spitfires with a different construction.

Ah, useful and pertinent information, thanks!
I had been wondering why the 105 was so impressively light, yet the 93 & 88 didn't have anywhere near the same ratio of weight to surface area. (The 93 is even heavier than the 105!)
That 88 will definitely be a contender for next season.

Right now though, very few models are comparable to the Cho Oyu.
I've really liked the old Logic-X:
http://www.wildsnow.com/4181/movemen...series-review/
(Gotta love seeing all those outdated models in the chart there for perspective!)

The Bond-X added some early rise, yet narrowed the waist, so I wasn't that tempted by it.

The Response-X though seemed absolutely perfect, so I mounted it with the Dynafit Speed Superlight and Scarpa Alien 1.0 for an all-around winter and early-spring ski mountaineering setup.
I still need to write up a more detailed review for Skimo.co (where I bought it), but (relatively) short story (while we all await the OP's descent portion of his Grand TR) is that I found it very capable and versatile *except* for true carving on firm surfaces. I'm not sure if it's something about the early rise (much more than just a slightly upturned Logic), or the mounting position, or what, but although it feels like a much wider ski in all sorts of unconsolidated snow (good!) it also feels that way when trying to get it up on edge for true race-style carving (bad!).
I like skis whose tips really try you enter the turn, and the Response-X tips feels like it just isn't there at all.
(I think that also means that the mounting position is effectively much too far forward for the contact length?)
When you just have to throw it sideways though on nasty uneven icy terrain, it's okay ... which turned out to be very fortunate, as indicated by the shininess in the right of this picture:






Meanwhile, although this seems excessive, I also mounted up the Hagan Y-Flow with the Hagan ZR (rebranded ATK WC SL-R) and Dynafit DyNA EVO for below-treeline winter powder. (My EVO sole lugs started shearing off after just five hours of cumulative off-snow travel, so although I still like them on snow, they're potentially dangerous for any kind of ski mountaineering situation -- I can't even use them for the bootpack at our mighty Berkshire East rando race!)
This setup turned out to be just as perfect for its intended applications as I hoped: felt like I was bringing along just a massive (by my standards) rockered shovel that just wanted to plane over everything, controlled by a carbon upper boot cuff.
I was worried that the 173cm length might a bit too long for our frequently tight below-treeline confines out here (my other skis sort of like this have been 168, 169, and 170), but instead it was astounding quick when it needed to be, yet stable otherwise.
Major caveats:
- Zero experience on the Y-Flow in breakable crust and other nasty variable snow.
- The closest I've come to using them on firm snow is skiing back through the resort in the late evening. Seemed to get on edge and come around really nicely on low-angle fresh groomers, but that's more like only a few dozen turns (although already way more promising for that than the Response X).
- The tail is very narrow, for a pronounced pintail shape. If you're often getting in the backseat, then they will jet out from underneath you. For next season, the tail is supposed to be stiffer, but I suspect is width (or lack thereof) is the major factor. Once I realized this (on my first run, on somewhat steep terrain, with thin cover over bony terrain that had me skiing defensively in the backseat), it was a good incentive to stay centered and never bothered me again. (Well, except when I choose a moderate steep bump run when coming back through the resort in failing light and on failing thighs, but the combination of bumps + dark + fried legs = probably getting thrown around no matter what the ski.)

For next season, Hagan is adding three other Y skis, two wider, and one narrow:
http://siasnowshow.snowsports.org/su...esentation.pdf

The Y-Drive is 125-83-98, so slightly less pintail than the Y-Flow (i.e. the Drive tail is 2mm wider relative to its waist than the Flow). And only 4 lb 12 oz for the 170cm. I might put some used Plum 135/145 bindings on them for the Alien 1.0 for the use I had originally intended for the Reponse-X.

[Jonathan S.]

Also the Trab Magico:
http://skimo.co/ski-trab-magico
http://www.scarpa.com/ski-trab/magico
http://www.wildsnow.com/10098/ski-trab-magico-ripido/
http://www.wildsnow.com/10258/ski-trab-magico/

But pretty much a traditional tip profile:

Eric Steig July 8th, 2013 5:40 pm
I thought the Magicos were supposed to have a bit of tip rocker. No?
Lou Dawson July 8th, 2013 6:27 pm
Eric, I don’t recall any rocker. Best without or with minimal so they can be skied short. Louie?
Scott Nelson July 10th, 2013 7:28 am
When I skied them, it seemed like they had a minimal amount of tip rocker, and they looked to have that, at least compared to the Ripido, which is traditional camber.
Louie July 10th, 2013 3:32 pm
They don’t have any tip rocker. At least from what I can tell. the tip might be slightly slow-rise, compared to some skis, but it’s very minimal.
I was able to get some more steep ski testing in on Rainer this weekend. The skis were awesome. Light weight skis make me appear fitter than I actually am, always a plus.

Also, the Nanga Parbat little brother to your skis is right at 80, but I suspect its stiffness is comparable to the Cho Oyu?

Probably ditto for the revamped Se7en Summits, which is kind of in between the Nanga Parbat and Cho Oyu, although heavier than either of them (although three of these weights must a typo in Dynafit's promotional materials, since the weight is identical for all the different sizes):

[JTrue]

Also the Trab Magico:
http://skimo.co/ski-trab-magico
http://www.scarpa.com/ski-trab/magico
http://www.wildsnow.com/10098/ski-trab-magico-ripido/
http://www.wildsnow.com/10258/ski-trab-magico/

But pretty much a traditional tip profile:



Also, the Nanga Parbat little brother to your skis is right at 80, but I suspect its stiffness is comparable to the Cho Oyu?

Probably ditto for the revamped Se7en Summits, which is kind of in between the Nanga Parbat and Cho Oyu, although heavier than either of them (although three of these weights must a typo in Dynafit's promotional materials, since the weight is identical for all the different sizes):

Thanks Jonathan, great info. I'll have to flex my buddies response-x's. The 88 waisted G3's look promising if they do a full carbon layup, heard from multiple sources the 105 waisted version is stiff. I understand the soft flex of the cho oyus probably helps them float, but it's just not confidence inspiring when skiing aggressively. Also found the pintail is a bit annoying in deep unconsolidated snow while breaking trail, tip stays up, tail sinks and effectively creates more work trying to get out of the back seat. Wondering what else La Sportiva will come out with, hopefully something similar to the Vapor Nano, just skinnier.

[Jonathan S.]

I'll have to flex my buddies response-x's.

How does he find them in firm conditions?
(And any other feedback on them? Wondering if it's just my personal reaction to them or ...)

I understand the soft flex of the cho oyus probably helps them float, but it's just not confidence inspiring when skiing aggressively. Also found the pintail is a bit annoying in deep unconsolidated snow while breaking trail, tip stays up, tail sinks and effectively creates more work trying to get out of the back seat.

Hmm, interesting -- I don't recall that problem even with the extreme pintail on the Hagan Y-Flow.
Then again, perhaps the binding played a role: the weight distribution is different given the lack of any noticeable mass on the Hagan ZR heel, plus maybe the minimal race-style heel elevator (i.e., kind of a "half step" as Dynafit called it a few years ago on some discontinued near-race models) prevents that from happening? (Or should it be exacerbating that?!?)

Wondering what else La Sportiva will come out with, hopefully something similar to the Vapor Nano, just skinnier.

Yes, kind of like waiting for the other shoe to drop when a radically lighter design is introduced, but for only one model!
(Their RSR race ski has always been ultralight, but that's just a rebadged model Merelli, which has shown no interest for straying into normal-width skis.)

[timmaio]

AFAIK after talking to sportiva reps, there will not be any other nano tech skis out this next year. I specifically asked him about a mid 80 waist ski.

From reading the promo materials on the seven summits, it is going be a less expensive and heavier nanga parbat?

I'm planning on the nanga parbat next year. I would have bought a pair this spring but they are sold out everywhere or asking full price.

The weight on the Wai Drive was very nice, but I never got a chance to really push the demo pair I tried, so can't speak to how they ski that well.

[Jonathan S.]

uphill specialist named Silas has a pair of Wilds that weigh nothing and are super stiff.

My test pair of those was my favorite ski last year -- the particular pair I had was a bit overweight (relatively speaking), but once we sorted out the mounting point (somehow our initial calculations were way off), and the base grind (Kam's stonegrinder was broken), this was a ski that did great on an unexpectedly totally frozen Mt St Helens one day (to the extent anything could do great on that), an unexpectedly deep powder Alpental the next day (to the extent any ski of those dimensions could well in such steep & deep conditions), plus all sorts of stuff in between.

Unfortunately, all of the test pairs have met their demises quite quickly.

Mine got in almost 62,000 earned vert before dying at Alpental:




Fortunately the summit lift was about to close for the day anyway, plus my assignment from Kam had been to break them -- all of my partners were greatly amusing at someone being so happy to break a nearly new pair of skis!
Silas has broken many pairs, one after something like only several turns.
Otherwise, would be my favorite for sure among all the models I've listed in this thread.

More on Kam & K Skis here:
http://www.skilab.com/k-skis/
http://www.skilab.com/portfolio/k-wild-jelly/
... although short story is that he's a mechanical engineering professor who has skied at least once a month for many (many) years straight, and has a totally tricked-out ski construction lab just for the fun of it.

Some more pics here of my pair:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/1...83322783496081
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/1...74944376299153

[JTrue]

Well, just looked at our inventory and I can get a screaming deal on the current 2014 G3 c 88's in any size. They aren't that light, but considering I was running speed radicals on the Cho Oyu's I might be able to justify it and come in at the same weight with race binders. Which size, that's the question. Leaning towards a 177...

[Mofro261]

Hmm, my very subjective flex of those Wild's earlier this week, 3 different iterations of the ski, would be fairly soft- even with the added carbon stringers, softer, and way too soft( other ski left from the 3 runs pr). Nice and light though!

[PNWbrit]

So about 60% heavier the OP's current skis, with a 102 waist as compared to the specified 80-90 range..

High speed slarvy as fuck though?

[dark_star]

Well, just looked at our inventory and I can get a screaming deal on the current 2014 G3 c 88's in any size. They aren't that light, but considering I was running speed radicals on the Cho Oyu's I might be able to justify it and come in at the same weight with race binders. Which size, that's the question. Leaning towards a 177...

It's such a shame your Cho Oyu's aren't 170s or thereabouts... I could find them a very good home (in my gear closet)

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Black Diamonds, where'd you find the Down Countdown 4, that you sold me, on that spectrum?

At 8lbs maybe not ultralight, but its definitely in the lightweight category. Its actually a pretty good charger too. Been really loving it this spring. Sounds like they're working on an even lighter layup - shaving off at least 1lb?

Those are some impressive skis I sold you. For me they were tweener skis, like a 6'7" power forward, or a 250 lb defensive end: they were too stiff for touring and too short for resort skiing. But I am eager to try other skis in the line. Great construction- light and responsive without the high strung, twangy feel of pure carbon that I don't care for except in powder.

Vectors can't haul ass like CD4's, but they they weight about 10 ounces less per ski don't fall apart when snow gets bad. They fit my range of aggression for BC skiing, but I'd overpower them ridging lifts. CD4's in a 188 would be an awesome resort ski for me.

I haven't skied Cho Oyu's or any of the other latest and greatest. My experience with ultra light skis is that they either perform acceptably in soft snow (e.g. Manaslus which I hated, or G3 Soulfly's which I quite liked) or hard snow (e.g. Seven Summits or Trab Stelvio XL Superlights, both of which I liked at first and grew to hate) and suck at things like crusts and and uneven surfaces. Vectors aren't amazing at anything, but they are stable and user friendly enough that skiing crap snow is still fun. They hold an edge well if they're sharp and float well enough if you know how to ski. For charging down steep open faces I'd prefer the CD4's or some 179/183 Bros. But I'm more likely to make careful turns down a steep narrow couloir, and vectors are pretty damn good at it.

[GeezerSteve]

uphill specialist named Silas has a pair of Wilds that weigh nothing and are super stiff.

I think Silas broke the K-Wilds

[tuco]

The 88 waisted G3's look promising if they do a full carbon layup,

A few weeks ago I went to the G3 website and they had their skis for next year on presale. The skis aren't on the site right now, but long story short is G3's whole lineup for next year are full carbon. Available in August.

[JTrue]

A few weeks ago I went to the G3 website and they had their skis for next year on presale. The skis aren't on the site right now, but long story short is G3's whole lineup for next year are full carbon. Available in August.

Any idea what the different models/lengths will weigh? Is the Synapse lineup replacing the Zenoxide lineup?

[foreal]

There is always a trade off with light vs stiff. Check out Ski Trab's offerings as their planks seem to nail it IMO. Only ski in my quiver without rocker (other than Iggy's) that sees a lot of time. If rocker is a must look elsewhere.

Been on the Ripido the last two springs. Take off the stupid plastic tip things and use any skins.

Also, a buddy swears by the OG Mt. Bakers that have a layer of metal in 'em.

[tuco]

Any idea what the different models/lengths will weigh? Is the Synapse lineup replacing the Zenoxide lineup?

The 105 already has the full carbon construction and it says its 17% lighter than the previous build, so I'm going with 17% lighter for each model/length. As far as names go, I'm not sure, it did seem like the lineup was different from this years, but I can't remember the details

[Mudfoot]

It's just a guess, but judging by the fact G3 is dumping the Zenoxides everywhere for really cheap, they sure look like a discontinued model line being replaced by the Synapse.

[Besniwod]

As I said in my earlier post, I was told they were continuing the Zenoxides with all of them having the same layup as the 105 for next season. That was a while ago though so maybe it's worth shooting them an email to check.