Garmin 62CS

[Cocximus]

Costco has the 62CS on sale for $230. Cool unit but damn it's a brick. I never had a dedicated gps, but I used garmin topo maps on my phone though. Considering I only plan to use it hiking/skiing is it really worth getting the big 62CS over the etrex20?

[Cocximus]

Everyone too cool to admit they use a gps?

[coldandwet]

Probably.

I use the old 60CSx still. It does the job just fine. I prefer buttons to touchscreens on stuff that will get used in poor weather.

[iscariot]

I use the old 60CSx still. It does the job just fine. I prefer buttons to touchscreens on stuff that will get used in poor weather.

Same model. Same here.

[GeezerSteve]

You mean 62SC? It's a good GPS unit that will do ya fine. Frequently calibrate the electronic compass. Better yet, don't rely on any electronic compass and always carry a needle compass. If you are traveling in the mountains, turn off the WAAS receiver to save battery power.

I too use the classic 60CSx, writing on buttons has worn off from so much use, best electronic device I've ever owned, hope it keeps going. The 62 series replaced the 60 series. (64 series now replacing 62, hence the sale price).

If you want to save $$, look at the Garmin 72H for around $125, which is what I'd get if my 60CSx were to crap out today. The 72H has a high sensitivity receiver chip and quad helix antenna, quick lock and good reception in forest canopy, has no maps (which I almost never use), works great to supplement paper map & compass navigation. It's also waterproof and floats.

[Cocximus]

Yes the 62SC.

What's the best way to see trails? The garmin topo has very basic trails. USGS based kml maps display in pretty low quality, it's hard to see trails.

[coldfeet]

Your first step after getting a Garmin GPS should be to download free maps from gpsfiledepot.com.

I have an old etrex Legend-something with a small B+W screen that I got cheap used, and it's not like navigating off a nice map (ie not a substitute for a map, nor do I expect it to be), but it's sometimes been useful for figuring out where the heck I am in relation to some desired objective that is on the map.

[Andyski]

Been a happy user of the etrex 20. The free online maps mentioned above are solid. Invaluable for dealing with arguments about which way to go with directionally challenged partners. I haven't had any issues acquiring satellites, even in wilderness canyons in GCNP, but obviously it won't be nearly as boffo as the larger units.

[GeezerSteve]

There are numerous sources for free download maps, all of which are based on the USGS database. If you're gonna download, download from the 7.5' map level. Garmin maps are a ripoff.

What's the best way to see trails?

With your eyes. Best way to see trails on a map is to look at a map. The 60/62/64 screens are small, manifestly inferior to a waterproof paper map.

And who the fuck needs a GPS if there's a trail?

A GPS unit is a great piece of equipment in the mountains to supplement navigation by map and compass.

[neck beard]

to supplement navigation by map and compass.

Yes. I use mine frequently in winter. Using the small screen map and "go to" function it is the fastest, or perhaps most convenient, way I know to find a bearing between position and destination, especially in wind and precip and without stopping. I can do it with one hand in about 20 seconds. I then follow that bearing using my needle compass.

Set up properly they are excellent navigational aids when used with some familiarity. I bump into many people who do not really use them effectively and so fail to realize their benefit and then scorn them. They are often older people with inflexible minds, or younger people who think a GPS is an instant solution to neglecting your navigation.

Regarding the 62CS and the like: I prefer a smaller unit that fits in a pocket or waist belt pouch better.

[GeezerSteve]

. . . find a bearing [and distance] between position and [stored waypoint]. . . then follow that bearing using my needle compass.

FIFY cuz I know that's what you meant. Seems obvious that's the most basic way to use a GPS unit to supplement map & compass navigation, but it seems to escape some people. The key is to store a good set of waypoints -- which happens before the trip at your computer -- an easy process, although experience with map & compass nav greatly assists the selection of a good set of waypoints.

But GPS supplementing map & compass is not only about getting bearing/distance to a stored waypoint. It's also about confirming position. I am into the know-where-I-am-on-the map-at-all-times routine for off-trail travel. This sometimes involves plotting a back bearing from a stored waypoint. This is not merely map geek stuff: Staying on route saves time as my body ages. Also, I started using a GPS unit for mountain travel 20 years ago when sat lock was slow, so we really had no choice but to navigate primarily by map & compass and use the GPS to supplement.

I bump into many people who do not really use them effectively and so fail to realize their benefit and then scorn them. They are often older people with inflexible minds, or younger people who think a GPS is an instant solution to neglecting your navigation.

Hmmmm. IME, experienced mountain travelers who duly learned map & compass nav skills seem more likely to embrace GPS units and use them effectively. But maybe my perception is skewed because I hang out with old timers and not-so-old timers with good map & compass nav skills. I do see lots of youngsters relying solely on their GPS screen, having no clue where they are on the map -- and some who don't bother to carry a map and compass, not a good thing.

[neck beard]

FIFY cuz I know that's what you meant.

Pretty much. I plan a lot of waypoints in advance on my PC, but at times do drop them on the unit screen whilst in the field. I do that most often when I do not need the GPS, but force myself to use it for familiarity and practice. Like all nav skills, I think people should use them most often when they are least needed in preparation for when they are [seldom] really needed. On reflection, until I started doing this seemingly redundant navigation I was actually not so familiar with the functionality of my gps unit.

FIFY cuz I know that's what you meant.
Hmmmm. IME, experienced mountain travelers who duly learned map & compass nav skills seem more likely to embrace GPS units and use them effectively.

My observations are bias as the ones most vocal about their GPS problems are usually the ones who speak up. Happy and experienced users seldom voice their thoughts, they just get it done. The most vocal are also the ones who are otherwise good at nav, but failed to learn how to use a gps properly, which made a fool of their nav skills... and so they blamed the tool rather than admit that the user can't use the tool. That bites their old-school pride and they seem happy to admonish the tool to cover up their problems. I have seen more than one person try to use what they thought was a compass on their unit when in fact it had no electronic compass at all. They are a strange set of people who most likely had an emotional bias against the technology in the first place and jump at any chance to dislike it.

Quite unrelated, but I notice that the latest model of InReach is moving towards GPS style waypoint functionality.

[ryan b]

I have a 62. It works great. Could be lighter, batteries could last longer and I think it has some built in smoothing that makes it hard to use for open-street-map grade mapping.

I find the maps a nice compliment to a paper map. The gps file depot maps can be excellent (they are user created so quality varies based on which ones you get). They are vector maps created from various databases and they sometimes do a better job with out of the way logging roads and trails then the allways-out-of-date usgs quads and sometimes include unofficial/decommissioned things that don't make it on the official maps. They can offer a nice second opinion to your paper map when you're out exploring a new area and stumble upon something not on the map.

[Jonathan S.]

Quite unrelated, but I notice that the latest model of InReach is moving towards GPS style waypoint functionality.

Yes, the new "InReach Explorer" adds full navigational functions -- waypoints, tracks, go-to screen -- to the SE ... But unfortunately no base maps.
However, I'm hoping that in conjunction with some promising initial forays so far using the Gaia GPS app (great maps via Cal Topo) on my new phone (upgraded to S4 Mini from old Droid Incredible for unrelated reasons) that I can leave behind my trusty old Garmin 60-series GPSr on most trips.
But for "serious" navigation in "serious" weather (wet, snowy, and/or cold), I'll still needed a dedicated GPSr.
And if I had to buy a new GPSr today, I would get the Garmin 62s -- the 62sc Costco price is great but all that model adds is a camera (plus some add'l internal memory, but that would appear to be moot since both models take memory cards), which would be super neat-o but we all have cameras on our phones now.

And who the f[] needs a GPS if there's a trail?

Example:
Skiing down a surprisingly fat upper Great Gully in King Ravine on the fake/non-real/unreal Mount Adams (yes, that same line that all of you know so well now!), surprising because this was our f[]'ing disastrous spring of 2012, yet so f[]'ing disastrous that the upper portions of our couloirs were pretty decent since we'd had so few avalanches to strip their snowpack.
Cut left to switch gullies (thereby avoiding the icefall/waterfall via which Rise to the Top so famously/infamously Fell to the Bottom) and . . . whoah, I knew this would be rough, but this is f[]'ing ridiculous!






Played connect the snow ribbons as best as I could then braced myself to play find the f[]'ing trail.
Previously recorded track and waypoints were no f[]'ing help since previously I didn't need to hook up with the f[]'ing trail until a few hundred vertical feet below, with the f[]'ing trail normally completed buried under snow at this elevation.
Consulting various base maps and overlays.
The f[]'ing trail was supposed to be ~5m to my left, which also matched up with my hunch.
But GPS accuracy was also ~5m.
Started schwacking through the f[]'ing "fragile" alpine vegetation, requiring a few f[]'ing minutes for each f[]'ing meter.
To my relief, the f[]'ing trail was exactly where the GPS indicated it would be.
I then concentrated on the long downhike out (plus of course fending off the predatory albeit imaginary gray wolves, which if necessary perhaps I could kill off using my BP cuff as a neck tourniquet).

[NoPostholio]

Backcountry navigator is another excellent Droid app that has my phone replacing my gps

If you have a phone as bad ass as a note 3 (or similar) , and add an excellent navigation app, going back to a stock gps is like going back to square wheels

[FussyDutchman]

+1 on BC Navigator, solid app, not a huge battery hog, constantly updated and solid accuracy.

[Jonathan S.]

But how is access to maps with BC Navigator?

Sent from my SCH-I435 using TGR Forums

[NoPostholio]

Muy bueno - many choices for topo and satellite. Save a map grid to the hard drive and you are - g2g

Forgot to mention before that the bc navigator app is excellent choice to run on small Android tablet as well. I toured pnw for about a month total last summer with small nexus tab (7 inch) running bcn app. Pretty awesome pulling that hudge screen out to check where you are on map and to verify distance to way points.

I found it handy to take a lot of Google Earth screen shots and keep a folder of them on tab as well for reference in new areas to the general terrain on an aspect.

[NoPostholio]

+1 on BC Navigator, solid app, not a huge battery hog, constantly updated and solid accuracy.

FD, what phone you running it on? Like so many things, bigger is better -

[FussyDutchman]

Still running it on an s3. Grandfathered on an unlimited plan and not ready to give it up or pay full $ for a new one to keep the plan.

[Jonathan S.]

+1 on BC Navigator, solid app, not a huge battery hog, constantly updated and solid accuracy.

I'm pretty sure that the battery consumption and locational accuracy are almost entirely a function of the particular phone model, not the particular GPS app.

Backcountry navigator is another excellent Droid app that has my phone replacing my gps

If you have a phone as bad ass as a note 3 (or similar) , and add an excellent navigation app, going back to a stock gps is like going back to square wheels

For map availability and viewing, a phone certainly is superior to a Garmin 60/62/64-series dedicated GPSr.

And I'm glad to see that the phone apps have improved considerably since when I first looked into them back in 2010 (when they were surprisingly deficient in some critical navigational functions).

But the battery life is still a major concern for me.
With my old Garmin 60-series GPSr, I can get multiple days from a set of Energizer Li AA batteries, even with the unit on most of the time, often recording tracks and/or navigating.
By contrast, with a phone GPS on and navigating, what kind of battery life are you guys getting?
(I have an extra OEM battery for my phone as a back-up, and a third party makes an extended/pregnant battery, although that pretty much eliminates using a case, whether for protection or attached a lanyard. Maybe this combination case & external battery is the solution: http://www.amazon.com/Chromo-Samsung...dp/B00EYGFN1C/ )

The other concern is using a phone in some combination of wet, snowy, and/or cold weather.
(Sometimes we seem to have all three adverse conditions simultaneously out here!)
Those dedicated physical buttons on an old-fashioned dedicated GPSr might be, well, old-fashioned, but they sure are reliable!

[NoPostholio]

I have an external 9000mah charger that is prob about the weight / size of the phone that can fully charge the phone 3 times from 50 %. I keep the phone or tablet in ziploc bag in top of pack.

[FussyDutchman]

I'm pretty sure that the battery consumption and locational accuracy are almost entirely a function of the particular phone model, not the particular GPS app.

I've used several other nav apps before finding backcountry navigator and surprisingly, on the same phone found accuracy and battery usage to be inferior compared to BC Nav with the main issue being battery suck.

I carry an extra oem battery and an external rechargeable battery charger as backup but with that said, I don't tour on the same planet as you do and would agree, a phone has its limitations for longer tours/hikes and in less than ideal weather.

[Jonathan S.]

^ So on your planet, does anyone tour with a loaded 9mm handgun to fend off predatory wild animals and a BP cuff to use as a tourniquet, or are other planets safer for touring?

Back to my planet, or rather my neighborhood, the closure signs went up today on the bikepath, so I was motivated to get in a GPS tracklog test before it gets ripped up for the next few months.

The most striking aspect of all all this is ... wow, Google must have flown over my house immediately after I mowed my lawn with really thick grass, since you can see the rows!

As for GPS accuracy . . .

First up is my old HTC Droid Incredible using My Tracks.
The tracklog starts off with a bunch of hiccups by visiting the center island, checking my mailbox, and riding up again on the center island.
Once on the road it does well, and takes the correct route through the woods onto the bikepath, where it wanders around a bit (the tracklog extends further south for more of the same, as shown here if you really far too much), but is generally pretty good.
The final return to my neighborhood though is far off my actual route.



Next up is my new Samsung Galaxy S4 Mini also using My Tracks (so as to eliminate one variable from the comparison).
The initial loop around the center island is shifted a bit too far to the west, but after that it's pretty good.
The out-and-back on the bike path lines up well, but the separation between the out versus back is ~2.5x the actual ~8' separation.
The return to my house has me on a lawn when I'm really on the sidewalk, and the final half loop has me on the road the same as my initial full loop instead of on the sidewalk as I actually did for the return.



All of that for the S4 Mini might seem excessively quibbly except for the Garmin 60Cx track below.
The tracklog looks more angular because of the recording interval, so focus instead on the track points.
After an initial hiccup with a visit to a neighbor's front door, the loop around the circle is shifted a little to the NW, yet then the track is *really* good, and you can even see on the return where I left the road and got onto the sidewalk (at another house's driveway).
The final half loop is once again shifted to the NW just as with the initial full loop, but relative to the initial full loop it is shifted down to the SW (since I was on the sidewalk).



The inaccuracies shown in any of these tracklogs certainly shouldn't matter for ski touring, but as these were recorded under nearly ideal sky conditions, I suspect that the differences would be magnified under more challenging sky conditions, especially since the Garmin benefits from an optimized and external antenna, whereas the phones are compromised with an internal antenna that is optimized for receiving (and sending) other types of frequencies.

[FussyDutchman]

Much safer thankfully! A simple switchblade is all that I've ever needed to fend off the occasional bobcat or Fisher Cat but one never knows how far west the pack has traveled since "fall to the bottom" isn't around to keep them in check.

Interesting experiment, I'll have to try a similar one with my tracks and bc nav to see how they match up. My issue with my tracks has been with getting an initial connection, it would sometimes take several minutes and seemed to drain the battery much quicker than bc but I haven't tried in a while.