DMT ... I have seen the afterlife

[SB]

trippy kitty

[theshredder]

Evolution doesn't give a fuck how you feel when you die.

[nest]

Not all mechanisms or traits of organisms evolved because they help promote life, reproduction, or survival. Most are but not all, this is a common misconception.

Please expound

[that dude who did that thing]

Please expound

The very process of natural selection presupposes that various traits will arise (e.g., via mutation). Those that provide an advantage are more likely to be passed on. Those that provide a disadvantage will, over time, be less likely to be passed on. Traits that offer neither advantage nor disadvantage may or may not stick around. They may stick around because they are associated with a genetic sequence that offers an entirely different evolutionary advantage. They may be the result of "junk DNA" that by sheer accident becomes common among the population. Lots of ways that a trait may survive over multiple generations without having any survival correlation at all.

[that dude who did that thing]

trippy kitty

Good god that reminds me of a house I lived in once. None of the cats were mine, but at times it seemed like I was the only one that remembered to feed them. At the sound of a can opener, every cat int he house would pounce on me.

[Hugh Conway]

at least akbloviator hasn't tried it.

maybe he did and it rendered him speechless

[RockChalk]

Vestigiality may be the word some of you are seeking when referring to these "traits"

Ever wonder why you have a tailbone but no tail?

Or did I completely miss the point here?

[bigAK]

Vestigial generally refers to "outdated" adaptions (your tail/bone scenario) - traits that once faced selective pressure but no longer do face pressure in either direction (selected for or against). There's also exaptation, where traits are adapted (selected for) for one purpose at some previous point and now serve another - the classic example being the development of feathers for insulation/warmth which then become useful for flight as well (at least we think this is the case at the moment). "Adaptive" in a technical sense means that a trait that was produced by natural selection for its current function. Your example and the one in this paragraph are both cases of non-adaptive traits.

The point I was trying to make is that it is not correct to say all traits (qualities that are inherited through gene replication) are a result of selective pressure (natural selection). "All traits are a result of evolution" does not mean "all traits are the result of some mechanism which made them advantageous." The latter is a common misconception of evolutionary theory, while the former is one of its main tenets. People tend to use the concepts "evolution" and "natural selection" interchangeably, and they don't refer to the same thing (scientifically speaking).

edit, DMT => Darwin? I need a drink...

[DasBlunt]

I don't buy the tenant, "ALL traits are the result of evolution". certainly most, but not all.

We might assume that statement is inherent of the science of evolution, but examples like DMT might help prove various arguments to the contrary.

We see the many arguments with questionable science as to our origin and purpose, but none from "unquestionable" science.

It seems science has lost any sense of spirit?

[jmedslc]

Thanks PappaG. One of my favorite subjects, the inner and outer limits of the mind and the intersection with realities if there is such a thing. And this thread elicited some responses from some posters here which I did not expect. Sounds like Blurred has smoked pot and realized it didn't immediately turn you into a liberal zombie

Growing up with a beatnik father and a hippie mother in the Mendo, CA, I have had a variety of exposure to psychedelic drugs, and pretty much did not have limits imposed upon me growing up. I took mushrooms at 14 and would host trips at my cabin with shrooms and other organic substances but stayed away from LSD until I found some really clean stuff in college (seems people usually puke before they fuck their brains up too bad on organics).

I found my mind could wander but I could always snap back to the standard reality with ease. I did not mind that as I was mostly trying to have some fun at the time. And I found that after a while I felt as if I was revisiting the same place, and the whole point was to go somewhere new. After undergrad, I didn't take anymore pure psychedelics, though I had a good friend with a hookup to absolutely clean MDMA which was fun in the Hollywood scene on special occasions. That drug is fun. Having breakfast with girls who can't find their clothes is alright in my book. But just fun.

Pretty much didn't have psychedelics again for the next 9 years until 2 years ago when I moved back to SoCal and my old friend and colleage invited me to an ayahuasca ceremony. I was at a place in my life where I was interested in opening new doors, had looked into the spirit molecule and he recommended it. They required me to fast on a diet, abstain from sex and other drugs before teh ceremony. Ok. Better be good. And I was asked to come with a prayer for what I was looking for.

I'll keep the prayer private, but the ceremony took place in my friends house at 8PM start as it was getting dark. We had yoga mats and cushions in his living room. It was guided by an american who seemed to know his shit and had learned about the shaman practices for the last 20 years. He had made the batch with ingredients shipped from SA. It was in (2) liter bottles. There were some rules. No leaving the room except for the bathroom, and no talking unless it was open talking time. As the house became dark, a candle was lit and we started the ceremony. 6 people including guy leading it. Everone except me was fairly experienced in this ceremony. We drank 8 ounce shots from a glass. And waited in darkness and silence for it to kick in.

I did a 15 min meditation, then got very relaxed on my cushion and nearly fell asleep. After what I guess was 30 min, I started to feel lighter on my cushion and outside sounds became more pronounced. At 40 minutes, THE DUDE STARTS CHANTING. His chanting is very pleasant at times, rough at others. Wide range of influences, some in what I can only guess is Tibetan, also songs from the Beatles (particularly good on the way down). Some we all chant together.

Over a period of 8 hrs from 10PM until 6AM I guess, we consume three more doses and go through periods of complete silence with colorful geometric lattices building stairways on which I ascend, into pure light, or webs of darkness with a sinister entity watching me, and periods in which the candle is lit and we talk and laugh and fall down laughing about sexual innuendos "boiing". One thing I found is that my 38 yr old mind kept trying to bring me back to reality. There was definitely a fight for my conscience between my ingrained mind who wanted to make sense of my sensory inputs and my other self who wanted to let go and go anywhere. If anything, my conscious will wanted to go anywhere and we were tired of the nanny bringing us back to the room.

In the deepest part of the pond, perhaps 3 hrs in, I ask for guidance from a spirit and I get nothing. In one of the quiet periods hrs later I feel a warmth come over me that I have only experienced a few times in my life, but I am familiar with. The message without words is that I don't need to pretend to be anyone else for any ego reasons. No more masks or pretension, just be and this entity will be with me. I GOT THE FEELING THIS WAS NOT NECESSARILY SOME OTHER ENTITY, BUT PERHAPS MYSELF IN SOME WEIRD ETERNAL WAY.


SO after that the trip wound down in typical fashion. As the light came in the windows, more visuals came to my open eyes. At 6am I puked black sludge up. and felt better. A few naps and songs and by 8 AM everyone was ready for breakfast.

I thanked my friends and headed home at 11AM because I had some things to do that day.

All in all a good experience though I am not sure I would repeat it right now. Not until I feel the need.

I think that experience with DMT sounds a lot different than your 30 min blast. I would like to try blasting off.

Cool story bro!
No, seriously...I'm somewhat of a psychonaut as well and your story rings true to me based on other renditions I have heard. I have not explored the spirit molecule yet but will someday.

Nice thread. Lots to be gained here...

[Tippster]

Not all mechanisms or traits of organisms evolved because they help promote life, reproduction, or survival. Most are but not all, this is a common misconception.

Do tell...

The very process of natural selection presupposes that various traits will arise (e.g., via mutation). Those that provide an advantage are more likely to be passed on. Those that provide a disadvantage will, over time, be less likely to be passed on. Traits that offer neither advantage nor disadvantage may or may not stick around. They may stick around because they are associated with a genetic sequence that offers an entirely different evolutionary advantage. They may be the result of "junk DNA" that by sheer accident becomes common among the population. Lots of ways that a trait may survive over multiple generations without having any survival correlation at all.

That is a non-answer. Get specific. Yes red hair in humans doesn't provide any advantage and is merely a mutation, yet lo and behold how many naked gingers are in the PR NSFW threads.

[digitaldeath]

OP is Anubis

[huckbucket]

I think it's funny how we all bash religion and deity worship but are fascinated with the spiritual aspects of experiences with drugs like DMT. Maybe moses was hallucinating too?

[Tippster]

That is fascinating if you give a fuck about the Bible to start with. There's a very good chance that Moses was just as fictional as Jesus - an allegory for the teachings of the time.

Talk to me about DaVinci, Mozart, and/or Einstein tripping and I'll listen.

[huckbucket]

Do tell...



That is a non-answer. Get specific. Yes red hair in humans doesn't provide any advantage and is merely a mutation, yet lo and behold how many naked gingers are in the PR NSFW threads.

Your DNA and my DNA are not the same. We have thousands of single nucleotide differences between us called SNP's (single nucleotide polymorphisms). Some were inherited others were freshly minted during cell replication. This is the basis of evolution and it happens randomly ... sort of. Regardless, the vast majority of these changes are to regions of our genome that do not code for proteins or regulatory RNA's. Therefore, they are non-functional but because they are not under selective pressure to either persist or be removed by natural forces they become permanent assuming procreation.

Red hair is a bad example because there may in fact be some environmental effect driving hair color. Specifically, people in warmer, hotter climates tend to have more pigmentation and darker hair whereas those in colder climates do not need this and have fairer hair. The exact environmental explanation is unknown to me, but I'm sure someone has looked into it.

[huckbucket]

That is fascinating if you give a fuck about the Bible to start with. There's a very good chance that Moses was just as fictional as Jesus - an allegory for the teachings of the time.

Talk to me about DaVinci, Mozart, and/or Einstein tripping and I'll listen.

I don't think the OP would associate DaVinci, Mozart, and/or Einstein with his DMT experience. And Einstein is the last guy I think about when I think about tripping which is ironic because so many of his theories require abstract thought.

[pappag]

I don't think the OP would associate DaVinci, Mozart, and/or Einstein with his DMT experience. And Einstein is the last guy I think about when I think about tripping which is ironic because so many of his theories require abstract thought.

I did see Ben Franklin in my trip. Not sure what the means... maybe he was a DMT pioneer for the colonies. That was the one figure that stood out. There were others but I'm drawing a blank now. Sadly, didn't see any babes in the afterlife.

[Tippster]

OK, but we aren't talking about ALL traits, but the main ones. Bipedal motion, ability to run for long distance, etc. - and that's just for humans. We also, due to our huge brains, moved beyond the need for direct benefit of mutation for survival in some odd societal ways. Look at the increase in breast size (and narrowing of the hips) in women over the last 200 years - it's not due to need for lactation or hormonal manipulation of our foodstuffs. Asians are getting bigger titted simply because large breasted women are considered more desirable mates and are thus mated with more often (and successfully) than the old stereotypical flat girl. There is also evidence that the Epicanthic fold is changing due to selective breeding in Japan. Look how much taller we are as a species than we were a mere 1/2 millennium ago.

This same urge/need gave us peacocks, mandrills, gold fish, etc. Our fundamental physiology changes to help us survive and reproduce. Emphasis on the latter.

I get what you're saying. Some mutations just happen and we don't filter them out of the gene pool because they are harmless. That's not the point tho.

[iceman]

Sadly, didn't see any babes in the afterlife.

Well fuck dying then.

Did you see Larry David? Wait he's not dead yet.

[huckbucket]

OK, but we aren't talking about ALL traits, but the main ones. Bipedal motion, ability to run for long distance, etc. - and that's just for humans.
.
.
.

That's not the point tho.

I clearly missed your point then ... cause I agree with everything that you're saying. Restate the question.

[iceman]

Just to take the other side of that, just because we don't see or understand the evolutionary function of a vestigial/"useless" trait doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't one.

[Tippster]

I clearly missed your point then ... cause I agree with everything that you're saying. Restate the question.

Upon closer inspection of your post (and more time to sober up) I think you and I are saying the same thing. I just don't communicate well verbally.

[iceman]

Telepathically you're good though.

[Tippster]

I knew you were going to type that.

[Art Shirk]

I did see Ben Franklin in my trip.

How do you know it was him? If your singular perception of him came from a non-DMT experience, wouldn't your mind only be able to recognize him from reference to the world you just escaped from - the fallible world?