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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeeze View Post
    For sure, plus free climbing and camping equipment to borrow. The programs for sure still exist but I think they’ve become a bit more formalized than when I was there (basically the Wild West of getting any and everything reimbursed).

    Also the schools pay for your alcohol 5-6 days/week. Harvey Mudd at least used to have a hard liquor licenses and give it away for free, pretty crazy in retrospect but nice as an 18-year-old to stay in the campus bubble.
    Say wut?

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by riser3 View Post
    Say wut?
    yeah, i'm either really gullible
    or
    he just violated his oath to keep the benefits of elite education secret

  3. #128
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    anybody else wonder what happened to Phillipers kid from the OP? I had to take breath after seeing Gripen pop up in the original convo (RIP)...
    what's orange and looks good on hippies?
    fire

    rails are for trains
    If I had a dollar for every time capitalism was blamed for problems caused by the government I'd be a rich fat film maker in a baseball hat.

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  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by ::: ::: View Post
    yeah, i'm either really gullible
    or
    he just violated his oath to keep the benefits of elite education secret
    Makes me realize I did it wrong.

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by ::: ::: View Post
    yeah, i'm either really gullible
    or
    he just violated his oath to keep the benefits of elite education secret
    Ain't nothing free! IF it still exists you pay for it one way or another. Wait until you get your first tuition bill with mystery fees and such.....

  6. #131
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    Darling daughter was recruited by one of the Claremont Colleges and we were kinda bummed when she went in a different direction. Fantastic institutions.

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeeze View Post
    For sure, plus free climbing and camping equipment to borrow. The programs for sure still exist but I think they’ve become a bit more formalized than when I was there (basically the Wild West of getting any and everything reimbursed).

    Also the schools pay for your alcohol 5-6 days/week. Harvey Mudd at least used to have a hard liquor licenses and give it away for free, pretty crazy in retrospect but nice as an 18-year-old to stay in the campus bubble.
    Pitzer Grad here, but Harvey Mudd’s tequila night still haunts me.

  8. #133
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    https://www.wiche.edu/tuition-saving...avings-finder/

    Looks like University of Utah is on the list with quite a few majors , WUE tuition is right in line with Oregon State tuition.
    Keep in mind kids have to maintain 3.0, easy for some but some kids don't give a fuck once they start. What you miss out on is the potential $2-10K/year OSU might offer as a desirable student. The matrix is listed but they are all "scholarships" so some legwork involved just like WUE.

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    I wholeheartedly reject the notion that education should lead to a job, that education should be vocational.
    I also reject most measurements of a colleges quality, especially US News.

    And any argument that links salaries to colleges is the most base and stupid principle of all.

    It's about the experience, the trip, the work, the people, the place, the curriculum, the vibe, the history, the culture.


    ^yup.
    And you and your kids can see it that way because you're well off to start.

    Now to be fair, I don't disagree in my personal feelings. I went to some really interesting schools, had my path change a bit, studied interesting things, had fantastic conversations, met interesting people from all over the world, became more interesting myself as a result, ended up with a PhD from a good school, and generally lived the dream of classical liberal education.

    But as a professor, I have more mixed feelings. I first taught at a fairly elite liberal arts school in the Northeast. You could see the clear bifurcation of the students between those who could afford to take a path that was more focused on intellectual than vocational development and those who needed this education to pay off quickly as they didn't have the cushion to knock a round a bit as their loans started to come due or the connections to get them in the door at places. I was part of creating a data science program at the school and it was frustrating because on one hand you had older faculty critical as they saw it as too vocational, and on the other you had the students who actually could have really used the vocational push being selected out of the track because they didn't have as thorough of math/science prep coming into college.

    Last year I moved to a public college in the West that is decidedly non-elite to start a DS program and it really crystalized my feelings. I absolutely try to create classes that will give students a sense of critical thinking, curiosity, and investigation, but they are almost all here to get a job. A lot are working shifts at In-and-Out between classes and supporting families. A lot more are older, returning students who see this as a stepping stone to a better life. Again, they really lack the network to get in the door without some demonstrable credential/skill and hopefully our data science program gives that to them. So far I've been pretty impressed with the students here. There are a lot of smart, hard working students here. They're not THAT different than the students I had before. We also run a food bank out of the school to ensure they all have enough to eat. That's different. Hopefully their college education can given them a chance to move up and break cycles of poverty or insecurity.

    Now, I will again say that I hope when my son chooses where he wants to go to college, he does so for many reasons before pure return on investment, but I do think that vocational needs have to be addressed if higher education is going to have a role in social mobility, esp. at public and not super elite schools (if you graduate from Stanford, scholarship kids can probably get interviews with your degree in Classical Greek, lesser schools, not so much).


    And just a side point: One of the things we do in my Intro to DS course is break down the algorithm that the US News uses to rank schools and identify/critique the assumptions that go into it. We then make our own ranking algorithms with the governments College Scorecard data. Students at my previous job LOVED this exercise, but I suspect they lived and died with the US News rankings growing up. I'm really curious to see if it resonates as much with my current students when we do it later this semester.

  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by ::: ::: View Post
    The kid is a junior this year so we’re talking about college

    He is likely looking at a math major, also physics; MAYBE engineering but he always seems to list it as a concession option when we talk about this. He’s doing Calc BC as a junior and seems to be the class curve-wrecker for now.
    […]
    Or, if you are in or came out of a math heavy program, what is on your radar for solid programs irrespective of mtn access?
    Since your son is into math, physics and maybe engineering, I feel like Harvey Mudd could be a good fit. CalTech would be great too. A friend from high school - the smartest kid in our class - went to HM, crushed a CS major and then went o Silicon Valley as an engineer. He enrolled in Stanford’s PhD - and then dropped out, because who needs that? - and is now the CTO of a $1.6B startup, so he’s doing well at a relatively young age. FWIW, he didn’t/doesn’t care about the outdoors, but it sounds like other mags have addressed that. And it does seem like the Claremont schools would be fun and cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by cspringsposer View Post
    Kind of out of the box and it isn't for everyone, but the US Air Force Academy checks a lot of your boxes (mountains, strong STEM, free tuition). I didn't go to a military academy but I have worked with a lot of smart math/engineering/physics types that did go to USAFA and they all speak glowingly about it. Most do their few years of service after graduation and move on to the private sector to make money with no student debt.
    I can see that as well, CS Poser. The primary challenge I think would be the fact that his kid “doesn’t do any extracurricular stuff, he’s not necessarily that competitive as a recruit beyond academics” - and not sure about sports - so that would likely make admittance doubtful (but not impossible).

    Quote Originally Posted by cspringsposer View Post
    From what I have heard, the first year is fairly structured, but after that, it is supposedly similar to a traditional university, except you wear a uniform. It is definitely not as hard core as the Naval Academy.
    It might not be as hardcore as Navy but I would say it’s a pretty far cry from a traditional university, both socially and academically. That being said, it could still be a good fit. Happy to share more insights if useful, ::: :::. Also, if your son is interested in USAFA, he should check out their "Summer Seminar" (or whatever it's called now, google didn't return much...).

  11. #136
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    I should say the kid does have interests to put on his CV beyond academics, but the comment paints a loose picture for the sake of general conversation here.


    Quote Originally Posted by fool View Post
    Happy to share more insights if useful, ::: :::.
    To you & others above who offered further conversation, thank you!

    I didn't respond to all the comments here but did read them all & appreciate everyone's input. I also read some of the comments to the fam last night re: new info & perspectives.

    I will reach out if we start digging specifically in a given direction that may have started as a comment here.

    It will be an evolving research that we'll hand off to the boy...cuz mom & I aren't going to school -- he's gonna have to own this

  12. #137
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    Are east coast schools definitely out? IIRC, your alma mater is a good one and offers quite a few stem majors.

  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazderati View Post
    Are east coast schools definitely out? IIRC, your alma mater is a good one and offers quite a few stem majors.
    atm, yes...so, places like mit, carnegie mellon etc are off the radar

    that may change as we get thru the year...we'll see

    he's visited our undergrad, but not grad, unis

  14. #139
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    Ah, OK. I thought yours was a combined program so only know of the one in Cville.

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    I only knew women who attended the hardcore stem schools like caltech, mit and rpi and eeew…. No. Find some school without a rotten stem culture, if that exists.

  16. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusBrody View Post
    And you and your kids can see it that way because you're well off to start.
    Dad was a Physics professor. We didn't have money, but we had values and part of that value system included valuing study and art for their own sakes.

    He was an immigrant who grew up dirt poor in the slums of NYC and did a stint at Bronx HSOS before being tricked into signing on for WW2. We're not the Biddles or the Dukes sorts.

    I did OK in math, but when faced with leaving the PNW for a "possible" tenure track position in Ohio or PA, I taught myself other stuff including EE and programming in C.

    Point being, I don't think the curriculum matters, but what matters is knowing how to work and learn new stuff and find out what one thinks is cool. I've never used Algebraic Topology or the Real Connective K Theory of Brown-Gitler Spectra anywhere, but it was my oeuvre at the time and I loved it.

    Now I did luck into a lucrative situation, and I do think that luck has a lot to do with that kind of success. So, yes, my kids don't have to worry about paying for tuition or food for their college.

    But the point is to let people have the time to figure out what they want to do rather than forcing scarcity or prestige mongering on them; that's what college should be.

    I'm not so naive as to ignore the fact that our system is fucked and most kids won't have that freedom, so fine, hold my feet to the fire for being an idealist in that regard. It is regrettable that some kids are forced into that vocational need which results from having a broken system, too steep in the financial gradient and without breaks for higher ed.

    Reed stat students also busted the USSpews algorithm...
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  17. #142
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    University choice

    My daughter is a senior and trying to figure out the same thing. She’s thinking environmental science, medicine, or science of some other kind. Or something in the music industry.

    She’s a committed skier, mtn biker and surfer. She’s been offered at a bunch of schools for soccer but has decided not to pursue it.

    Leaders in the clubhouse are UO, UW, and Syracuse (we have family upstate. I’d be bummed if she went this route. Emotionally and financially.). Second list is Cali state schools like maybe CalPoly, plus UU, OSU.

    She has taken nearly a dozen AP classes, has a very good GPA, and decent test scores. But that’s kind of it. The serious soccer has prevented all the resume stacking club and community stuff (high level club soccer is a 20+ hour a week job plus travel.)

    So I’m bummed because, while I think Univ of Oregon would be a perfect for for her socially and from an outdoor interest standpoint, it’s not a great school for the things she wants to do for a job. And as a Colorado resident it’s expensive. She can likely get into UW but she doesn’t love it. UU would be perfect if she goes into medicine but it’s still not nearly as high quality as other schools she can get into. Plus her brother is there and she doesn’t want to follow him. (he moved there and got instate tuition which was awesome.)

    So I’m afraid I’m looking at spending a bunch of money for a second tier school. Or a crap ton of money for a Syracuse.

    Not sure there is a question here. I might just be venting.

    Oh - I got into the Naval Academy and chose not to go. My senator was freakin pissed. But I would have hated it. I have a friend who’s daughter went to the Air Force academy and loved it. To each there own on the service academies. But you gotta want it.

  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    I only knew women who attended the hardcore stem schools like caltech, mit and rpi and eeew…. No. Find some school without a rotten stem culture, if that exists.
    You just insulted my wife. And my daughter.

  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    Dad was a Physics professor. We didn't have money, but we had values and part of that value system included valuing study and art for their own sakes.

    He was an immigrant who grew up dirt poor in the slums of NYC and did a stint at Bronx HSOS before being tricked into signing on for WW2. We're not the Biddles or the Dukes sorts.

    I did OK in math, but when faced with leaving the PNW for a "possible" tenure track position in Ohio or PA, I taught myself other stuff including EE and programming in C.

    Point being, I don't think the curriculum matters, but what matters is knowing how to work and learn new stuff and find out what one thinks is cool. I've never used Algebraic Topology or the Real Connective K Theory of Brown-Gitler spectra anywhere, but it was my oeuvre at the time and I loved it.

    Now I did luck into a lucrative situation, and I do think that luck has a lot to do with that kind of success. So, yes, my kids don't have to worry about paying for tuition or food for their college.

    But the point is to let people have the time to figure out what they want to do rather than forcing scarcity or prestige mongering on them; that's what college should be.

    I'm not so naive as to ignore the fact that our system is fucked and most kids won't have that freedom, so fine, hold my feet to the fire for being an idealist in that regard. It is regrettable that some kids are forced into that vocational need which results from having a broken system, too steep in the financial gradient and without breaks for higher ed.

    Reed stat students also busted the USSpews algorithm...

    N
    I don't mean to hold your feet to the fire. Like I said, I love the classical liberal education model and really believe it is the best way to go. If my wife wouldn't have been such a drag on my plans to marry MacKenzie Scott, my dream would have been to create my own liberal arts school somewhere in the mountains that would have been a techier St. Johns with self-reliance and outdoor expedition planning built in.

    But I also agree that the system is fucked and that it's WAY different from what it was when your dad, you, or even me (I suspect I'm a few years younger than you). The sheer number of degrees being earned has made them less valuable as just a "college degree" so students find that they have to do other things to ensure that they can get good jobs afterwards, especially for those who don't have a way to get their foot in the door. I watched a lot of smart, hardworking students struggle to get decent jobs with sociology degrees at my old employer even though I think it was a great department in terms of teaching critical thinking and it was a school that was probably in the top 5-10% of schools in the country. They just didn't have the clear skill set to sell. That's fine if you have a few years to bump about and prove yourself, but it's harder if you don't.

    US News publishes their algorithm and are above board with things, so I respect that at least. Most students just don't understand it or how schools try to manipulate it. They dropped the cap for upper level courses to 18 at my last job and we got a message saying that maybe, just maybe you could over enroll to 19, but definitely not 20, because - ummmm - our classrooms were built specifically for no more than 19 people....and we need to keep that personal touch, which is there with 19 but not 20.

  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by ::: ::: View Post
    <b>atm</b>, yes...so, places like mit, carnegie mellon etc are off the radar

    that may change as we get thru the year...we'll see

    he's visited our undergrad, but not grad, unis
    Wait, how did ass to mouth get into this discussion???

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Suit View Post
    You just insulted my wife. And my daughter.
    and if iirc, you, if you take it that way. Because my comment was more aimed at the dudes there, like :: :: son would be

    souble edit: my comment was based on the shitty way women were treated there, if that wasn’t clear. That’s not good for men to learn.

    edit: when I worked for the navy, the resources the NA had were amazing in their depth and how little they were used. And the whole point of this was women re out achieving men in higher Ed and many stem programs are still dick dominated.
    Last edited by dunfree ; 09-24-2021 at 02:51 PM.

  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by EWG View Post

    She has taken nearly a dozen AP classes, has a very good GPA, and decent test scores. But that’s kind of it. The serious soccer has prevented all the resume stacking club and community stuff
    The admissions departments recognize and discard the obvious stacking of extracurriculars. A high level dedication and success at a sport is a good hook and one is all a student really needs.

  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusBrody View Post
    I don't mean to hold your feet to the fire. Like I said, I love the classical liberal education model and really believe it is the best way to go. If my wife wouldn't have been such a drag on my plans to marry MacKenzie Scott, my dream would have been to create my own liberal arts school somewhere in the mountains that would have been a techier St. Johns with self-reliance and outdoor expedition planning built in.
    S'ok, I have poor circulation in my feet. Frostbit too many times. I'm swimming against the current current regarding liberal ahts, I know.

    But I also agree that the system is fucked and that it's WAY different from what it was when your dad, you, or even me (I suspect I'm a few years younger than you). The sheer number of degrees being earned has made them less valuable as just a "college degree" so students find that they have to do other things to ensure that they can get good jobs afterwards, especially for those who don't have a way to get their foot in the door. I watched a lot of smart, hardworking students struggle to get decent jobs with sociology degrees at my old employer even though I think it was a great department in terms of teaching critical thinking and it was a school that was probably in the top 5-10% of schools in the country. They just didn't have the clear skill set to sell. That's fine if you have a few years to bump about and prove yourself, but it's harder if you don't.
    Yes, times have changed. The financial gradient is too steep and the era I enjoyed has passed, but I'm still of that opinion of what college should be.

    US News publishes their algorithm and are above board with things, so I respect that at least. Most students just don't understand it or how schools try to manipulate it. They dropped the cap for upper level courses to 18 at my last job and we got a message saying that maybe, just maybe you could over enroll to 19, but definitely not 20, because - ummmm - our classrooms were built specifically for no more than 19 people....and we need to keep that personal touch, which is there with 19 but not 20.
    Reed quit filling out the USNews college poll 20+ years ago because it led to schools manipulating the poll and evidence that the rankings didn't exactly reflect the poll. So USNews punishes Reed by lowering their ranking which the stat students investigated. Anomalies were published. That's one reason Reed has started to publish the results of the NSF WebCASPAR, amplifying that PhD success is a valuable measure. By average income of graduates, Reed doesn't do so well because so many grads would rather do stuff that impassions them, rather than makes them a lot of money. At this stage of life, when I see lots of ugly, bitter, lost money chasers, I think that's a decent choice.

    (edit) One of my pals from that era was a theatre major. Now he's an acupuncturist with a couple of offices in Seattle (he owns the buildings) but his passion is still theatre:
    (see the guy with the huDge white wig) Lymphoma Eton-Hogg

    Then there's the Yes Men (look that up)
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  24. #149
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    I'll cop to the privileged perspective re: education for education's sake too.
    It doesn't obviate the potential benefits of the idea, but it is certainly a luxury to think about it this way -- hopefully that can change over time to the benefit of society in general.

    And as mentioned earlier, the concept is at loggerheads with the potentially crippling debt associated with higher ed these days

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    it is to the benefit of society; it's just that the availability isn't what it should be
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