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  1. #26
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    I played with the TLT6P for days, prior to returning them (carpet test only). There is no way I could get them to fit snugly without the tongue; power strap I could have lived without. Without the tongue the boot also seemed soft, though more progressive.

    When I comment on the TLT fiddle factor, I'm talking about messing with a tongue that is stored in a backpack and powder cuffs in deep snow and the resulting transitions.

    So just to clarify, guys who are claiming low fiddle factor with the TLT are not using the tongue at all? At that point, do the boots even ski in the same league?

  2. #27
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    Another perspective on reducing TLT5/6 fiddle factor: I ski almost all the time (except for the rare rando race) with tongues in. I've cut down the tongues by about 3/4" and fasten the power strap behind the removable and fixed tongues so they don't reduce rearward mobility. I cut a rectangular hole in three pairs of soft shell pants that fits the TLT buckles, so all I do to transition is open the buckle or close it.

  3. #28
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    Greg, I've tried that but it doesn't work for me but it makes sense for someone with different physiology.

    Quote Originally Posted by tDot13 View Post
    I played with the TLT6P for days, prior to returning them (carpet test only). There is no way I could get them to fit snugly without the tongue
    I cannot imagine that. Do you have a very low volume foot?

    Quote Originally Posted by tDot13 View Post
    When I comment on the TLT fiddle factor, I'm talking about messing with a tongue that is stored in a backpack and powder cuffs in deep snow and the resulting transitions.
    In deep snow why remove the tongues? TLT5/6 tour fantastic -- i.e., better than Maestrales -- with the TLT tongues installed. Removing the tongues only makes sense for long hikes/scrambles on dirt/rocks'snow, extended cramponing or low angle fishscale touring. And, as I stated above, for those rare routes (5/year?) when I go tongueless on the approach it's a <60 second issue because I've already got the pack off during those transitions -- so that's less than 5 minutes per season. And, again, switching tour>ski>tour is faster in TLT5/6/One/Merc/Vulc than any other AT boots. Seems that some people look to find problems whenever they hear the word "Dynafit."

    Quote Originally Posted by tDot13 View Post
    So just to clarify, guys who are claiming low fiddle factor with the TLT are not using the tongue at all? At that point, do the boots even ski in the same league?
    Two issues here. Re tongue swapping, see above re not really any fiddle factor for those rare routes when I swap. Re how TLT5/6 ski tongueless, they ski just fine tongueless for me (and others, apparently) on late spring/summer routes where hiking/scrambling is the priority and for low angle fishscale touring. Same league? Not a relevant question cuz we're talking about completely different kinds of routes.

    I haven't skied the Spectre so I'll defer to Dane re TLT5/6's superior hiking/scrambling performance and TLT6 w/black tongue's superior skiing performance. The (non-monetary) price to pay for TLT6 performance is insignificant. Nonetheless, the Spectre sounds like a great boot at a great price that I would probably like (if it fits).
    Last edited by Big Steve; 03-22-2014 at 11:34 AM.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by tDot
    I played with the TLT6P for days, prior to returning them (carpet test only).

    So just to clarify, guys who are claiming low fiddle factor with the TLT are not using the tongue at all? At that point, do the boots even ski in the same league?
    No disrespect intended. But again...less speculation more skiing needed in this thread.

    I have many days on the Maestrale RS, TLT5 M and P, the Spectre and the TLT6P.

    We are just splitting hairs here. All these boots ski really well on any width ski you want to put under them. Big Steve and I aren't small guys. I'm 190+. Steve 250. But he and I are also talking different boots TLT6 Mountain and Performance. Used with different liners, CL, CR and the La Sportiva liner. Two boots and 3 liners and two different tongues. And that is just for the TLT6.

    For touring, tongue in a TLT and no power strap is less fiddle factor for me than a Spectre where i will want to loosen the power strap and likely the upper buckles as well to tour in. Obviosly some don't need to do all that on the Spectre. Tomatoe/tomatoe.

    Again Steve's description is perfect for my use as well for touring. Always plenty of time to put a tongue in if you are touring with the tongue out. Tongue out is generally Spring only for me. Touring is 90% UP so having the better walk mode of tongoe/no tongue is worth the minimal extra effort IMO. By Spring I am also using a much lighter and skinnier ski. Important to note that.

    TLT6 P or Spectre have been my full on lift service boots all winter. This winter generally on a 115mm GPO. My fiddle factor comments have been from lift skiing. I'm using the TLT6 boots with tongue and power strap installed right now. But I don't always use and prefer not to use the power strap even lift skiing. It is a technical crutch skiing and fiddle factor annoyance I don't like when I start touring again shortly. I am also using the green tongue on the P and not the black one.

    A TLT5 or 6 in any form can ski lifts (much as Fede dislikes the idea adroitly. As can the Spectre and RS. If the skier can.

    They all tour well. Some better IMO..some way better. I prefer not to climb or tour in the RS. Spectre is good as is the TLT. Those two have distinct advantages for me when used for booting/climbing. But I am sold on the shortest BSL @ the toe of the Dynafit. Nuances being discussed here.

    Decide on what kind of boot fit you require. Find the boot that fits you the best with that fit. My guess is you'll best be served by that boot.
    Last edited by Dane1; 03-22-2014 at 12:44 PM.

  5. #30
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    Sorry Steve, I mis-read your comment.

    Skiing...ready, go!

  6. #31
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    I am kinda surprised by the number of people complaining about fiddling with tongues on TLT5/6.

    For me, the difference in skin/hike performance without tongues and the difference in ski performance with tongues makes the easy, 30 second tongue transition totally worth it. Plus once you do it enough it becomes pretty quick and easy.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantana1 View Post
    I am kinda surprised by the number of people complaining about fiddling with tongues on TLT5/6.

    For me, the difference in skin/hike performance without tongues and the difference in ski performance with tongues makes the easy, 30 second tongue transition totally worth it. Plus once you do it enough it becomes pretty quick and easy.
    Hell yes. The TLT6 touring without tongues is fantastic, so much so that when I now try and tour with tongues in I absolutely hate it.

    When you have it dialed the tongue transition is a piece of cake. Practice and efficiency, just like you learn to do with putting skins on & off, just like you learn to do when changing between heel lifters, just like you learn to do when changing clothing, eating, pissing, shitting, moving, anything you do in the BC.

    Compared to a normal BC skier my transitions are faster; compared to an experienced BC skier that still has to re-adjust multiple buckles on a Maestrale or similar for the up/down, I'm faster; compared to the relatively rare (in my experience) experienced transitioner that keeps all of his his boot buckles the same up & down I'm a little slower. If I skied with you tongueless TLT6-ers, I'm sure you'd have me beat by 20 seconds, but in truth I doubt either of us would notice.

    You can get so good that it's all seamless. I don't see the problem. The boot designers nailed it with the removable tongue - the best of both worlds up & down, IMO of course. Why compromise any of it?

  8. #33
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    I would be talking about my Mercury's but I don't see a big hassle swapping in/out the removable tongues

    Mostly I use the Tongues at the hill, I leave them out for most BC skiing especaily long periods in the skin tracks, if its a short steep yoyo I can leave them in

    IMO removable tongues are a good way to alter the boot's stiffness without resorting to a switch or sft in boot design which never really works all that well in use, the removable tongue works pretty good in the Vulcan/Mercury/ TLT I always wonder why they didnčt make the Tongue removable on the ONE ?
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er
    I always wonder why they didnčt make the Tongue removable on the ONE ?
    ONE is such a cool boot design. Even better when you strip to the basics. Wish they would do a TLT 6 version of it with the fiberglass cuff/black tongue material. As is, stripped, the ONE skis very well compared to all the boots listed in this thread. Still a favorite. More like a over built PDG with a fixed tongue to keep the snow out and 3 buckles.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    My 28, stripped, lwt buckle change, a Palau wrap liner, one boot is 3# 2oz.
    My 29 TLT6P w/lwt buckle change, p-strap, green tongue, Spectre liner is 3#.

    (liners differ by 6g or .2oz for weight)
    Last edited by Dane1; 03-23-2014 at 01:51 PM.

  10. #35
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    To me the vulcan/mercuy/ ONE all look like pretty much the same line of boot stiffest to softest, same kind of fit, same liner but you can't take the tongue off of the ONE ?

    removing the tongue on the ONE would remove another 60 grams and also you would have more ROM?

    I have to ask how does the TLT handle compared to the ONE and why did you buy 2 boots that I assume are so similar?
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    To me the vulcan/mercuy/ ONE all look like pretty much the same line of boot stiffest to softest...I have to ask how does the TLT handle compared to the ONE and why did you buy 2 boots that I assume are so similar?
    Same boots, same fit. Differing materials and no ability to add an additional tongue to the ONE. I think it is a rather misunderstood boot. If you wanted to be really accurate, I wouldn't just lable them as stiff to soft. Same style boots but different boots. Big Steve had a pair or ONE's previous. I'd be interested in his comments on the ONE.

    The base tongue on the Mercury and Vulcan is the only tongue on the ONE. No ability to easily add the extra and removable tongue of the Mercury and Vulcan. Mer/Vul and TLT all have two tongues, one is removable. One is not. ONE only had the base tongue of the other boots. But it seems to be stiffier to me than the other's base tongue (with no additional tongue in place) for forward flex but haven't played much with the others recently to recall the details. Think of the ONE as a Mercury with no tongue, but a stiffier forward flex and less weight in that mode.

    ROM is the almost the same/same as the Mercury/Vulcan with no tongue. Little less if i am right about the base tongue being less flexable.

    ONE skis better than a TLT5 P and Mtn IMO. Rigid sole of the TLT6/Mercury is why. Very close to but not quite as good as the TLT6P with stock CR liners in both. Better than or equal to the TLT6P w/stock CR liner by adding the (Intuition or Palau) wrap liners in the ONE. ONE is cheap by comparison. Easy to get on sale. I knew how it fit already and was a good project boot to mod/cut up, exp. with when I found the TLT5s less durable than I wanted/expected.

    Technology is there to do something similar with a TLT6. Love to get my hands on that boot as a lwt, fiddle free, all mountain skiing/climbing boot. Think love child of a TLT6P and a PDG
    Last edited by Dane1; 03-23-2014 at 04:22 PM.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dane1 View Post
    . Mer/Vul and TLT all have two tongues, one is removable. One is not. ONE only had the base tongue of the other boots. But it seems to be stiffier to me than the other's base tongue (with no additional tongue in place) for forward flex but haven't played much with the others recently to recall the details. Think of the ONE as a Mercury with no tongue, but a stiffier forward flex and less weight in that mode....
    I just took the boot apart and put the liners on the dryer

    Never thot about the 2 tongues much until you mentioned it to be honest, I don't really think of that 2nd tongue as something that adds stiffness to the Merc, I would say it adds just slightly more than sweet fuck all ... just there to keep out the snow ?

    I think the cuff stops in the shell & upper cuff of the Merc/Vulcan and possibly the green plyon at the rear of the boot hingeing & contacting the lower boot shell are what is giving the boot all its stiffness ?

    I assume the ONE has cuff stops?
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Steve View Post

    I cannot imagine that. Do you have a very low volume foot?
    I punch the forefoot of my boot to 125mm, though my instep and arch are both average, and my heel is a touch on the small side. So while I've never had a bootfitter classify my foot as low volume; it's got it's issues. With the two buckles on the TLT's, I needed the tongue in to hold my heel down, there's no way I could ski that boot without it. I was hoping to pick up the TLT6 P, and not have to use the tongue for skiing or skining.






    Quote Originally Posted by Big Steve View Post

    In deep snow why remove the tongues? TLT5/6 tour fantastic -- i.e., better than Maestrales -- with the TLT tongues installed. Removing the tongues only makes sense for long hikes/scrambles on dirt/rocks'snow, extended cramponing or low angle fishscale touring.
    All of the people I have toured with, have pulled the tongues, on anything other then steep yo-yo's. Out of the peeps that I asked, each of them said that the touring was worse with the tongues in. I dont know if they were comparing that touring ability to other boots, or simply to the TLT with the tongues in.... I'd assumed the later.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dane1 View Post
    No disrespect intended. But again...less speculation more skiing needed in this thread.
    I wasn't speculating. My statement was referring to the fit of the TLT6P, on my own foot. However, I was asking questions, as I was genuinely curious about the differences between skiing/skining with the tongues in and out. Hence the use of a question mark at the end of each sentence.

    My earlier observations about what I perceived as fiddle factor on the TLT series of boots was pretty clearly stated as observations of others.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er
    I don't really think of that 2nd tongue as something that adds stiffness to the Merc, I would say it adds just slightly more than sweet fuck all ... just there to keep out the snow ?
    Base tongue on all the 2 tongue boots does keep the snow out. Ski a PDG or Evo and get back to me on the usefulness of the first tongue layer. They (PDG and EVO) don't have anything there and snow is an issue as well. I have been skiing a PDG a lot recently. That "bit layer" is more than fook all, trust me. PDG/EVO is just a totally stripped TLT6 really. Mer/Vulcan just a beefier TLT6. ONE is a one of a kind animal to date that I wish they would clone.

    The "tongue" on the ONE is a lot more tongue than what is on the TLT6 as a first layer. It skis a lot like the green tongue installed on a TLT6 for flex, no P strap, may be a bit more. Don't have a Mer/Vulcan here to compare.

    "Less speculation and more skiing" was not directed at any anyone specifically...just lots of assumptions being made in this thread that are in error from my perspective. Most would be cleared up quickly with a few runs in the boots.

    Rug tests or 2nd hand personal observations without actually skiing the boots side by side (not side by side, one on each foot btw) makes any comparison suspect I think. Been fooled many times myself. Same ski, same conditions, switching boots between runs will tell you a lot. Not easy to do as it turns into a full time job. With out doing that the results are generally, "you don't know, what you don't know". Even with the boots on hand everyone has different foot/bodyshapes and ski styles. Which is why we get differing opinions.
    Last edited by Dane1; 03-23-2014 at 06:17 PM.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregL View Post
    Another perspective on reducing TLT5/6 fiddle factor: I ski almost all the time (except for the rare rando race) with tongues in. I've cut down the tongues by about 3/4" and fasten the power strap behind the removable and fixed tongues so they don't reduce rearward mobility.
    Thanks for that tip.

  17. #42
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    I doubt I could find or fit in either of those boots, in any case keeping snow out is good but I was talking about stiffness ... I think the "2nd tongue" adds fuckall to stiffness
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dane1 View Post
    Big Steve had a pair or ONE's previous. I'd be interested in his comments on the ONE.
    * * *

    ONE skis better than a TLT5 P and Mtn IMO.
    I concur with Dane's comparison of the One vs. other UltraLock boots. One is a very nice touring boot and a pretty good lift-served boot. Indeed, if you are looking for an all around tech-fitted touring boot, One would be a good place to start. I very much liked how the One PX skied and toured but it doesn't fit me as well as the TLT5/6 or Maestrale RS so I sold them to a bud. One skis significantly better than TLT5M, a bit better than TLT6M and a bit softer than the RS. I give the win to the flex on the One over all of the above. One has less of a performance fit (on me) than TLT5/6 but tours quite well (better than Maestrale). One not as good as TLT5/6 for hiking/scrambling. No surprise there cuz TLTs are the standard for on-foot travel. One is also more robust than TLT5/6, likely a longer useful life.
    Last edited by Big Steve; 04-24-2014 at 03:45 PM.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX
    .. I think the "2nd tongue" adds fuckall to stiffness
    If you compare a TLT6 and a PDG...which are virtually the same basic boot, PDG/EVO is just a totally stripped with no base tongue, to save weight. The difference in how they ski is quite remarkable. But no question they are the same boot when you make the comparison skiing. The base tongue adds way more forward support in a comparison between those two than you have implied. And the base tongue limits the ROM hiking and skinning as well on the TLT Series in a comparison to the PDG/EVO which has an even better ROM than the TLT Series.

    The ONE boot with its base tongue is a lot more substantial and gives even more support than the TLT Series base tongue does. How all that works out in the Mer/Vulcan I can't tell you. But I'd bet it is a lot more than you have suggested if the Dynafit boots I have here are any indication. Yes the ONE does have cuff stops.
    Last edited by Dane1; 03-24-2014 at 11:45 PM.

  20. #45
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    does the ONE have the cuff stops ? Grind those out if you dare and see if you don't end up with a noodle ?
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  21. #46
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    Just got a pair of Spectres - I've never tried TLT6's. Love the light weight and walk mode on the Spectres! Skied them today in area and love the smooth progressive flex but they feel softer than my Titan UL's. Torsionally they are very stiff bit they feel softer fore/aft. Any thoughts on how to stiffen up the flex? Intuition liners?

  22. #47
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    Just finished my second day in my new Spectres - both resort days. Agree they are soft forward but still ski great in my opinion. so light and so easy to walk in though.

    WMD - i was surprise how an extra tweak on the upper buckles and power strap stiffened them up. Booster straps would work well on these.

    Anyone want some size 26 Quadrants?

  23. #48
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    The liner is so nice in the Spectre I am using it in my TLT6. But if you want to stiffen the Spectre up some any decent overlap liner will do so.

  24. #49
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    I was able to try the Spectre on in a local shop (not on snow!). Interesting boot, but it doesn't really have a place in my quiver. With the stock liner, my foot won't fit in it. However, I grabbed the Intuition Pro Tour liner out of my Cochise 120, and was able to wear the Spectre with my Pro Tour liner, comfortably.

    I own a 2014/2015 Cochise 120 that I ski with a Pro Tour liner. I also own a TLT5P, in which I use the stock liner. I don't think I'd be able to use a thicker liner in that boot. The heel is just WAY too tight. I wear a 25.5 in the Cochise, a 27 in the TLT5P, and I'm a 26 in the Spectre.

    The Pro Tour liner is very similar to the Spectre's stock liner. The Pro Tour is a bit stiffer in the right areas, and has the same 'touring' cutout. They both seem to articulate similarly. The liners appear to be made of slightly different material. I've heard the Intuition foam takes a heat mold a little better. The liners are within 10g of each other - at around 250g.

    The TLT5P liner is almost 100g less than the Pro Tour and Spectre liners. It is considerably softer, and articulates a little better. It is basically identical to the CL liner for the TLT6.

    The Spectre doesn't walk or stride anywhere near as well as the TLT5P. It walks and strides slightly better than my Cochise 120 with a Pro Tour liner. I would say that if the TLT5P is a '10', and the Cochise 120 with a Pro Tour is a '1', then the Spectre is a '4' - it is closer in walk-mode performance to my Cochise 120 with a Pro Tour, than it is to the TLT5P. This is the same for going up and down stairs (simulated bootpacking?). Note that most of the differences are not necessarily in the metatarsal flex point of the TLT5P. Most of the difference seemed to be in the complete lack of friction and movement in the ankle rotation. As such, I would expect the TLT6P to perform similarly.

    The TLT5P is stiffer, but less progressive, than the Spectre, in the fore-aft. For me, I believe the TLT5P would ski better. Progressiveness is nice, if you can get a stiff enough boot. If the boot is too soft, progressiveness doesn't really help. I'd still like to ski both in a back-to-back test, but I'm pretty sure my opinion would hold. I noticed that Dynafit can get away with a softer liner in the TLT5P. This is because the stiffness pretty much all comes from the tongue, and how it's held in place by the notch and the buckles. Because of this, it doesn't really feel like an alpine boot when skiing in it. Weighing this against the softer flex of the Spectre would be a tough call, and is likely the reason why some think the Spectre skis better, and others think the TLT6P skis better. For some, the softer flex of the Spectre isn't as big of a deal as the non-alpine like feel of the TLT6P. Though, I've heard that replacing the powerstrap with a booster strap makes it feel much more alpine-like - haven't tried it yet.

    For me, the TLT5P is a better boot: it weighs less, and it tours better. However, the Spectre definitely feels more like an alpine boot, just one that's a bit too soft for me and how I like to ski. I tried taking the TLT5P tongue and placing it on top of the Spectre tongue, with the buckles over both tongues. It boosted the stiffness a tiny bit, but not really enough, it seemed the TLT5P still felt stiffer, which was quite odd. I guess the tongue wasn't locking in as well by just floating on top of the Spectre tongue. As expected, both boots aren't even in the same league as the Cochise 120 in terms of performance (stiffness and alpine feel).

    The Spectre in a 26 with the Pro Tour OR stock liner comes in at ~1250g. The TLT5P in a 27 with the stock liner, tongue and powerstrap comes in at ~1150g. The 2014/2015 Cochise 120 in a 25.5 with a Pro Tour liner comes in at ~1750g. I use a 90g custom footbed in both the TLT5P and the Cochise 120. The custom footbed would not fit my foot into the Spectre, due to the extremely low instep. If I bought it, I'd probably have some bootwork done to the Spectre to make it fit with a footbed.

    The Spectre feels like a ski boot, but a pretty soft one. It walks pretty darn well, but not as well as I expected it to, given all the chatter I've read about. It is amazingly light for everything that's packed into the boot. It's nearly as light as the extremely stripped down TLT5P, once you consider the difference in liner weight. For me, to give up the extremely free stride of the TLT5P, and not get a noticable improvement in ski performance, isn't really worth it. If I want more ski performance, I'll go with my Cochise 120 with a Pro Tour liner - it skis phenominally well and tours amazingly as well. Changing the liner to a Pro Tour made a HUGE difference in how well it tours, by the way. If I'm doing a longer mission, and am making compromises in how I ski, then the TLT5P just makes more sense to me, than the Spectre. Like I said, I'd still like to get the Spectre out onto real snow and ski it back to back with my TLT5P, but that fore-aft flex is noticably softer, so I just don't see my opinion changing. The one concession that I might make, is that with the Spectre, you have microadjust. In this way, you can get both boots feeling identically stiff without overbuckling. With the TLT5P, the slight difference in how each tight each boot is on my upper leg is a bit distracting and annoying. The lack of fiddle factor with the Spectre is nice, as well, but not enough to make up for the rather large, imo, difference in walk modes.
    Last edited by Lindahl; 04-13-2014 at 05:46 PM.

  25. #50
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    Perhaps a dumb question, anyone skiing the tlt6 performance without the tongue? I was skiing the vulcans that way with a booster strap and thought it skied well.

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