How wolves changed rivers....

[KQ]

Cows aren't too happy

OSU study: Cows that witness wolf attacks suffer PTSD-like symptoms

[Kenny Satch]

There's no arguing with the anti-wolf people. They're right up there with the craziest of the crazies.

and to think I normally like crazy people but I guess there are times I shouldn't

[Sparky]

Monbiot's recent book Feral, is well written and worth a read. He is a journalist who pricks the conscience of the establishment, he is also an ecologist who knows about river functioning, and a prof/fellow of Oxford University.

Also worth checking out is River Republic, the rise and fall of America's river, D.McCool. Another great read.

[RootSkier]

Outside the park there are hunters, so what do we need wolves for?

I am swayed by this irrefutable logic.

[senior researcher]

Wolves live under the laws of nature,without respect for hunting seasons, land ownership,or hunting hours.

[liv2ski]

And unlike Western man, they don't take more than they need to survive.

[neufox47]

I'm willing to concede the need for an apex predator, and that the effects claimed by the twit in that video are probably real in areas where populations are left without any predators, either hunters or wolves. Outside the park there are hunters, so what do we need wolves for?

Because hunters are so good at killing the small, weak, and sickly animals.

In my professional opinion this calculation is very misleading. . http://extension.oregonstate.edu/wal...on_final_0.pdf

[BCMtnHound]

And unlike Western man, they don't take more than they need to survive.

Perhaps not, but sometimes they make considerations of their next meal in ways we humans can relate.

[DBdude]

interesting rebuttal

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/10/op...f=opinion&_r=0

[that dude who did that thing]

Was just about to post that here, DBdude. Problem is that while that author is correct taht some studies have found problems with the trophic cascade theory in YNP, others have confirmed it, and he just chooses to ignore those. For this "skiing dentist" the takeaway is simply that ecosystems are quite complex, and cannot be simplified. And that conclusion merely reinforces the importance of the first rule of tinkering.

[iceman]

I think that some of the issues brought up in the rebuttal are simply the result of not enough time having passed. The willows in particular. It's not like willows can never grow there again, it's that they need to start by the water's edge, pull the water table out and up a little from there and then the trees can begin to spread. This is not a fast process.

[char]

As an engineer, if I state that a bridge can hold 25 tons and it fails at 5 tons, even a wildlife biologist can see that there is a problem. So when wildlife biologists tell us that grizzlies live in isolated populations and don't cross roads, rivers, or railroads and yet when they put a radio collar on them they track them going back and fourth hundreds of miles between these so called isolated areas, across rivers, roads and railroads, even an engineer can see that their underlying assumptions are flawed. Furthermore, at least one of the bears that they have identified in this area has been shown via DNA testing to be related to bears several hundred miles west in a separate population.

I doubt there is a single wildlife biologist that has ever claimed that a bear will never cross a road, railroad or river.

HOLY SHIT! Bears are related to each other!?!

[that dude who did that thing]

I think that some of the issues brought up in the rebuttal are simply the result of not enough time having passed. The willows in particular. It's not like willows can never grow there again, it's that they need to start by the water's edge, pull the water table out and up a little from there and then the trees can begin to spread. This is not a fast process.

Exactly. When doing stream restoration work, willows are planted "with wet feet," meaning that if we are planting in spring, we're actually putting them in the water, in the summer (when streams are at their lowest), we make sure the hole is extremely wet at bottom, and in fall we basically plnat right at the edge fo the water. The willow then spreads out from there over subsequent years. What we euphimistically call the "willow burrito" method, involves actually putting the base of the willow well below the median high water mark.

Along the Gallatin River in YNP there is a test plot that NPS researchers built years ago. They went to a typical piece of river valley bottom. They fenced in a 10x10' section (roughly) with chainlink fence. The fence has zero effect on water table or water conditions, wind, bugs, birds, or even small mammals, but it keeps out large mammals. For years the plot inside the fence grew and grew, while the surrounding valley bottom was grazed down by elk and deer. It was a stark difference. Today, the area outside the fence has come a long way toward catching up. We see a lot less elk in that area, and everything has grown considerably taller.

That is anecdotal only, but having witnessed it, it's hard to ignore.

[WWCD]

That dumb fuck Limey doesn't even know the difference between an elk and a deer and you think he going to know if wolves are changing rivers or not. Give me a fucking break.

Has no one considered that he may not know Yellowstone's elevation?

[Mazderati]

Cows aren't too happy

OSU study: Cows that witness wolf attacks suffer PTSD-like symptoms

First they were mad, now they are sad. How very emoo.

[hutash]

They fenced in a 10x10' section (roughly) with chainlink fence. The fence has zero effect on water table or water conditions, wind, bugs, birds, or even small mammals, but it keeps out large mammals. For years the plot inside the fence grew and grew, while the surrounding valley bottom was grazed down by elk and deer. It was a stark difference. Today, the area outside the fence has come a long way toward catching up. We see a lot less elk in that area, and everything has grown considerably taller.

That is anecdotal only, but having witnessed it, it's hard to ignore.

Fuck the wolf, reintroduce the Yellowstone fence.

I think the Gallatin fence is a subspecies of the greater Yellowstone fence.

Paypal donations to Save the Yellowstone Fence Coalition, or just PM Rontele.

[Kenny Satch]

Fuck the wolf, reintroduce the Yellowstone fence.

I think the Gallatin fence is a subspecies of the greater Yellowstone fence.

Paypal donations to Save the Yellowstone Fence Coalition, or just PM Rontele.

thats very offensive or defencesive depending on what side of the fence you're on

[Viva]

thats very offensive or defencesive depending on what side of the fence you're on

You upstart! I challenge you to a duel!

[Kenny Satch]

You upstart! I challenge you to a duel

I accept but can it be with lightsabers after 3 or 5 pitchers of beer ?

[iceman]

Has no one considered that he may not know Yellowstone's elevation?

he probably doesn't even know where we store the moguls in the summertime.

[iceman]

First they were mad, now they are sad. How very emoo.

eat more chikin?

[Ted Striker]

You upstart! I challenge you to a duel!

Sword fighting for beekeepers.

[Kenny Satch]

Sword fighting for beekeepers.

Viva's picture is ingenious but I'll give high marks for that one

[Viva]

Better?



And this is strangely exciting:

[Diesel]

For those of you getting hung up on the elk/deer thing... This is a fragment of a 2013 Ted Talk (http://www.ted.com/talks/george_monb...wild_the_world) that someone (sustainableman.org?) has used in a video. The bit featured in the video starts at around 3:10.

If anyone was having a difficulty telling the difference between the deer and elk, I'd imagine it might have been the videographer.

Now feel free to resume the dick, er, sword waving.