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  1. #951
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    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeJ View Post
    Do you guys have your full demo calendar in place yet? Tahoe? If you came out last year, you've got to come out this year for sure now that it's good again.
    Probably 10 days before complete schedule is up, but as WWSRA swapped their NW and Cali demos this year, we won't be able to make both so looking like no Tahoe demo this year.
    Seriously, this canít turn into yet another ON3P thread....

  2. #952
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
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    5
    Been waiting a while for this....
    184 Grizzlycorn Steeple 112
    CAST SI&I
    FKS 180

    First day tmrw!Click image for larger version. 

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  3. #953
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    Dec 2014
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    Anybody know where Powtron will set up the truck for tomorrow's Loveland demo? It's been ages since I've skied there.

    Thanks,
    Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  4. #954
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    Jun 2009
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    Colorado
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    As long as you don't end up at the valley or something equally dumb, you will not be able to miss it. You can walk across the whole base area in about 30 seconds...

  5. #955
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    Kinda what I remember. Thanks.

    ... Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  6. #956
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    Nov 2002
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    Question for owners or former drivers of both BG's and 114 Jeff's:

    Thanks to a little luck, I am currently sitting on both of these skis, but thanks to an injury and a really shitty EC winter so far, neither has been on snow yet this season.

    But I'm heading out to whistler next week. Forecast calls for shitty pineapple express rain down low, snow up high. My days will be 50% mine, 50% groomer duty with wife and kids.

    Between the Jeff and the BG, what's the call? I was thinking Jeff for that 'other' half of my time, but in shitty wet glop is the BG better by enough of a margin to make it worth the sacrifice on the flat stuff?

    (Iggy, you guys really outdid yourselves on the '16 BG topsheets. for a NW native those are about as cool as it gets.)

  7. #957
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    Aug 2015
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    Tahoe
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    1,422
    Billy goat for slopp..

    Anyone want a set of 191 Billy Goats?

  8. #958
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    Dec 2014
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    Colorado Front Range
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    Some mini feedback after today's Loveland demo. Firstly, let me comment that Powtron is a gentleman of the highest order. Hanging out under a tent and feeding impatient skiers with new skis all day is a thankless task. I've done my share of trade shows, and as much as you may love your work, your products, etc., the process can be brutal, and Powtron and his buddy sailed through this with a great sense of humor.

    TLDR/Executive Summary The perceived hole in my quiver for a soft snow ski which can handle day old chop had me targeting the Billy Goat and the Steeple 112, and the Goat seems to be a perfect match for me - a versatile, soft snow ski (doh!).

    Background I was initially scratching my head about the wisdom of selecting the MAP/Carbon layup for my Praxis GPOs, but trusting Keith's advice (and being honest with myself and him about my abilities goals), I'm finding these skis to be ideal for my abilities in tight trees in Colorado (see below about Steeple 112, however).

    The key point, is that this choice has opened up a space in my quiver for something a bit more stout - a powder oriented but versatile ski. Frankly, I can't count on the stars aligning for me to get enough days on a pair of Cease and Desists or Protests (much as I wish this were the case), so I was looking for something a bit more versatile.

    General Observations (all three skis - Billy Goats, Steeple 112's, Wrenegade 112):

    Speed: I found myself looking further down the hill on all three skis - anticipating turns further in advance and searching for just a wee bit more speed. With all three skis I was on today, it's as if there was a little devil on your shoulder, saying "faster, faster, faster!". These skis want to run, but you can shut them down easily and (with a bit of self-restraint), you don't have to let them fly.

    Straight-line Stability: I have limited experience with rockered skis, only having joined the party last Winter (with the GPOs, a pair of Atomic Automatic 109's, and some year-old carbon Megawatts). I was beginning to wonder if a ski with any early rise could have straight line stability. The ON3Ps proved this to be false. I'm sure there are others that are this stable (and I'm sure a full glass version of my GPOs would be), but these three skis definitely fit into that category.

    About the RES: … don't get your panties in a bunch about this. I didn't notice any difference in how they carve or initiate, when compared to a 5-point ski with traditional sidecut. Others may notice, but if there are any differences, it's subtle. An earlier poster commented that you need to know where the front of your boot is, and this is certainly true with all three skis, but in this sense, they're very traditional feeling (I like that).

    Tuning: I'm the princess and the pea when it comes to this. If you're on a ski that's really close, but not quite right, don't blame the ski. Ask about the tuning, and if you're demoing in Colorado, give feedback to Powtron. I chatted with him about this. I tend to be a bit more aggressive in my detuning than the demo skis' tunes. Of course, you can't be all things to all people, and Powtron struck an ideal compromise with the demo tune/detune. As I grew more enamored with the Billy Goat after my second session with them, I looked at the tune and realized that I had some margin for "freeing" up the tip with a bit more detune. I'm not sure that I'd do this, but at the same time, this is good information to have.

    About me: 5'9"/170Lbs - a "mature skier" who doesn't match the typical TGR profile, in the sense that I make more turns than most claim to. I like it flat and steep (and of course, ideally deep), but have fun in softer bumps. Air (with the exception of a 5' cornice drop) is accidental, and I only need tips on the front of my skis. I ski the old way (facing down the hill), and come from a long background of playing with race-stock skis, dating back to the Dynamic VR-17's and Rossi Strato 102's in 207 lengths (back in the day).

    The skis

    The conditions were generally dust on crust, and I couldn't find any wind-blown snow deeper than 2-3 inches. I would have loved to find some chop to see how the skis handle this, but today was not the day for this. I tried the following three skis in this order:

    Billy Goat (184 cm): Even without finding any soft stuff or day old chop, my sense is that this is the ski I'm after. The Goat (being the object of my desires) was the first ski of the day. After cycling through the other two skis, I rode my GPOs for a few runs (to clear the palate) and then got back on these. In my second session with the Goats, I realized that my body had begun to "learn" the logic of how an ON3P skis, and I began to lock into them. Even though I was getting tired by this pont in the day, I found that they were easier to ski in this second session.

    They are by no means as bad on hard snow as I was led to believe by some posts in this thread. I'd say they're just a "notch" back from the Wrenegades. Powtron says that next years' are even better. Let's put it this way. I'll end up with either this years' 184's or next, and I won't make a decision based on hard snow performance, because (1) it's quite good on an absolute basis (and outstanding for a soft snow ski), and (2) these will be my powder day through a couple days after ski. They'll be fine for dust on crust - this, I got plenty of, yesterday.

    Steeple 112 (184 cm): Definitely a Mini-Goat/Baby Billy. Just a bit mellower than a Billy Goat, but with the same basic character. In one sense, calling it a touring ski is a disservice because it still can rail like a mother. It's much more ski than my Atomic Automatic 109 is. If I didn't own the MAP/Carbon GPO's, a Steeple and a GPO would have a death match for the winner. They're very close, and on any given day, I can see myself flipping back and forth in my preference. My GPOs are just a bit more turny, but this could be the MAP/carbon layout in the GPO.

    Wrenegade 112 (186 cm): This is the ski that first brought up the thoughts about the devil on your shoulder. It's solid as a rock, and very reminiscent of my original 181 Coombas (no rocker), although I'm sure if I went back to them, I'd discover that they'd be more of a challenge to negotiate tight terrain (releasing the tip or tail when necessary). I'd definitely find a spot for this ski in my quiver, but based on my skier profile (noted above), it would be a "final piece". For others, I can see it being the first piece. I would have loved to see how it handled deep stuff, but today was not the day for this.

    Cheers,
    Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  9. #959
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    Nov 2006
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    Thom, thanks for coming up and trying things at the demo.

    Super extensive collection of thoughts you spewed out and all appreciated!
    You should have been here yesterday!

  10. #960
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    Feb 2015
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    109
    Thom, you mentioned that the Steeple 112 is "more ski" than your Automatic 109. Would you consider it similar, though? I've had good luck with a 182 Automatic 109 on a couple heli trips, and wonder how the Steeple compares. Also, how would you compare the Automatic to the BG?

  11. #961
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    Feb 2010
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    The Chicken Coop, Seattle
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    To those thinking about not buying billy goats, don't let this be you.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    wait!!!! waitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwait...Wait!
    Zoolander wasn't a documentary?

  12. #962
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
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    109

    2014/2015 ON3P Skis (Official Thread) - Discussion and Lust

    Quote Originally Posted by SupreChicken View Post
    To those thinking about not buying billy goats, don't let this be you.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Plenty quick? I want something with stability yet quick enough to negotiate the trees. Something quicker turning for the trees in powder and more "traditional" than my 186 Jeffreys. Am I asking too much from a bomb-proof ski? 184 perhaps? I don't need the hardpack performance, necessarily, as I have the Jeffs and some Bonafides.

  13. #963
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    Dec 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikdes26 View Post
    Thom, you mentioned that the Steeple 112 is "more ski" than your Automatic 109. Would you consider it similar, though? I've had good luck with a 182 Automatic 109 on a couple heli trips, and wonder how the Steeple compares. Also, how would you compare the Automatic to the BG?
    It's hard to do a perfect A --> B --> C comparison, especially with such limited exposure, and hopefully others can chime in for you because I hate to get on a soapbox with absolutes. Take my comments about tuning to heart as well, along with the fact that I ain't no Lindahl.

    If you're thinking heli-trip, I'm guessing the skiing would be fairly wide open, and from this perspective, I'd opt for the Goat as weight wouldn't be a concern, and just a bit more float would be appreciated (based on comments above, and not my direct experience).

    With those disclaimers, I'd say that with any of the ON3P's, you need to be just a bit more "on top" of them to initiate than the Automatics. My MAP/Carbon GPO's fall somewhere in between the two. If you're not familiar with the GPO layups, the MAP/Carbon is their intermediate layup, with full glass being the most damp and UL carbon being lightest.

    My comment that all of the ON3P's had me looking a bit further down the hill (as off the wall as it might appear to be) may be the most telling attribute of all of the skis I demoed. When I realized this to be the case, it was a bit of a revelation. You hear comments about speed limit and such, but for me, it's about how a ski affects your attitude, and these skis gave me a bit more of it - just a bit.

    If you were to score them (god, how I hate this sort of quantification), I'd rank them as follows:

    Turn initiation (1=least input required, 10=most):

    Automatic 109 (182cm): 6
    MAP/Carbon GPO (182cm): 7
    Steeple 112 (184cm): 8
    Billy Goat (184cm): 9
    Wrenegade 112 (186cm): 9.5

    Again, tuning could change these perceptions, and in powder, I don't think you'd care.

    Perceived speed limit would roughly be the inverse of this, except that the GPO would rank closer to the Steeple. I'd love to have had a comparison of the ON3Ps in manky, chop but today wasn't the day. My sense was one of a very stable tip however. Another thing I was surprised about was that in spite of their weight, the Goats and Steeples did not feel heavier than the GPOs. I might feel this on the skin track, but it was not the case in downhill mode.

    I'd liken the Atomic 109's to a light version of my MAP/Carbon GPO's (both in 182cm) in that they have a similar character as far as initiation and how you stand on them (Atomics mounted on the line and GPO's at -1cm).

    Last week (in anticipation of this demo), I took my Automatics and GPO's out - to re-visit my quiver and see if there was "room" for Billy Goats. Rather than re-state that all here, you can read about it in this thread (post# 582): https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...uide?p=4660767.

    A few days before that post, I was bellyaching about my GPOs in upside down snow. In retrospect, I realized that much of it had to do with the fact that I was getting over a flu shot and a cold.

    Cheers,
    Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  14. #964
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
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    109
    Amazing feedback, Thom. The heli trips I do are usually mid-January in BC, so we spend a fair amount of time in the trees. A couple weeks ago was a mixture of alpine and trees, but trees were always part of the equation. The Automatic 109 was good in the alpine AND the trees, and I appreciated their versatility. I also appreciated that they were one of the ski options included in my cost for the trip (provided by CMH). I liked them enough to not try the Automatic 117 or K2 Pon2oon.

    Lots to contemplate. Thanks again for your feedback!

  15. #965
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    504
    Quote Originally Posted by mikdes26 View Post
    Plenty quick? I want something with stability yet quick enough to negotiate the trees. Something quicker turning for the trees in powder and more "traditional" than my 186 Jeffreys. Am I asking too much from a bomb-proof ski? 184 perhaps? I don't need the hardpack performance, necessarily, as I have the Jeffs and some Bonafides.
    Overall, I agree with GNU, but the in the conditions you want these for the BGs are not a "9" on a scale describing how much effort they take to turn IMO. They are perhaps the smoothest, most intuitive, ski I've skied in pow and soft cut-up/ soft bumps. If they are a 9, I guess my 09/10? 191 Wrens are a 27 or something like that :-)

    Everything skis pow reasonably well, but I feel that the BGs are far better than my now-sold GPOs in tighter terrain/heavier snow. The GPOs were a lot better than the BGs in harder bumps, hardpack overall etc. But I haven't detuned the BGs yet, so I guess that's the reason for their sometimes funky behavior.

    I can't compare the BGs to Steeples, but I've skied the older BG tour a lot, and I think they have pretty much the same flex as the Steeples? Anyhow, I feel that the added stiffness of the standard BG lay-up makes them easier to ski in rough snow and at higher speeds overall, but a bit plankier than the tours on hard snow.

    Anyhow, if I were to pick up a ski for heli the BG might be it. On the other hand.......if you already have 109s and Jeffreys that work well, maybe you should consider adding a C&D or a Protest instead.

  16. #966
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    Dec 2014
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    Agreed ... the arbitrary initiation effort scale was indeed arbitrary. I should have emphasized that it was for those conditions - dust/wind-blown over crust. I'd expect the Goats to be really easy to turn in powder.

    Also to mikedes26, I don't know the sort of trees you're referring to. If you haven't skied Summit County, Colorado trees, they can be very tight. In comparison, when I see all of the stoke videos posted here of skiing in trees, I look at them as open glades, bordering on wide open spaces (in general), in comparison with the tight trees we find here.

    Cheers,
    Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  17. #967
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    May 2011
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    If the Wren 112's are 9.5... the Billy Goats are more like an 8, at most. And keep in mind I've got 25 days so far this year and 20-or-so of them are on those exact two skis, so it's pretty fresh in my mind.

    As for the RES - that doesn't really come into play until you're in true 3D snow - you need at least 5-6 inches on the ground. You haven't truly experienced that side-cut if you've only skied them in less snow than that, especially considering the pintail design dropping you down from the tips.

  18. #968
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    Feb 2015
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    109

    2014/2015 ON3P Skis (Official Thread) - Discussion and Lust

    Well...this is a side view, but pretty representative of some of the spacing in the tighter, but yet still skiable trees. I like to look about 5-10 turns down the run and am not afraid the thread needles, as long as I can check speed...Click image for larger version. 

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  19. #969
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikdes26 View Post
    Well...this is a side view, but pretty representative of some of the spacing in the tighter, but yet still skiable trees. I like to look about 5-10 turns down the run and am not afraid the thread needles, as long as I can check speed...Click image for larger version. 

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    I look at this as wide open, in comparison with the Colorado trees I referenced.

    Cheers,
    Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  20. #970
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    Sep 2010
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    Den/Baltimore
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    Quote Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un View Post
    I look at this as wide open, in comparison with the Colorado trees I referenced.
    Not bagging on mikdes, but I think most mags would agree that those are not "tighter" trees. Just a different point of departure. If he wants something as easy as the Automatic, then he may not enjoy an ON3P ski...which is fine!

    The 186 Jeffrey (110) is quicker than the BG on firmer snow, but the BG is quicker AND more stable in 3D snow, where the RES and pintail make it about the most versatile ski I've ever used. The progressive mount of the Jeffrey lets you really whip/muscle them around, which is much harder to do on the BG. That comes at a price, which is (to me) fore-aft stability, particularly in soft chop/tracked pow. This is where the BG shines. The way RES lets you rip over deep, heavier, tracked snow is awesome, and those are the conditions I find myself skiing the most (inbounds). The Jeffrey is a great playful ski with a backbone for 3-7 days after a storm, but I certainly wouldn't take mine heli-skiing.
    "Alpine rock and steep, deep powder are what I seek, and I will always find solace there." - Bean Bowers

    photos

  21. #971
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    Dec 2014
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    This is really helpful information. I hoped to prompt comments, because 4 or 5 runs doesn't tell the whole story (doh!), and of course, I would have loved to find some 3D snow to play in.

    I tend to agree about the comments regarding tight trees - that an Automatic type ski might be most suitable for the OP, although follow-up comments that the Goat is quicker in pow are encouraging, and give me pause.

    I commented about my experiences with RES in the way I did (on hard snow), based on several comments in this thread about needing to learn how to engage the tip on groomers. I walked away with the impression that this might be a compromise/downside of RES. It's not. The skis are very intuitive, and easy to engage on groomers/hardpack - not weird in the least. Of course, it's nice to hear that RES works its magic in 3D snow - something I'd expect, but good to hear.

    Cheers,
    Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  22. #972
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    I found a shot on my phone of some tight trees here in Colorado (A-basin).

    It's hard to get an idea from this photo, but in the tight spots, there's a tree where (say) every other mogul would be. When it opens up, its like a narrow East Coast (Vermont) trail.



    Cheers,
    Thom
    Last edited by galibier_numero_un; 02-09-2016 at 11:02 AM.
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  23. #973
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
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    109

    2014/2015 ON3P Skis (Official Thread) - Discussion and Lust

    Quote Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un View Post
    I look at this as wide open, in comparison with the Colorado trees I referenced.

    Cheers,
    Thom
    These are pretty open, although I did say tighter in my original comment. We ski plenty of trees tighter than this. This is simply the only photo I had at my disposal that was close, as opposed to these wide open trees...Click image for larger version. 

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  24. #974
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    Enough photos about tree spacing.
    "Alpine rock and steep, deep powder are what I seek, and I will always find solace there." - Bean Bowers

    photos

  25. #975
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
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    Der Town
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    None of the trees posted in this thread are tight.

    Anyways.

    5'10" 210lbs and middle of the pack skier who uses angulation to turn skis. I kinda ski fast and have fairly solid technique but not the fastest or bestest skier.

    191 Billy Goat is a nice ski. I had no problems getting it to do what I wanted. It is sluggish on groomers compared to other skis. Probably the RES. I still could make it scarve turns on groomers easy enough. (Notice I said scarve not carve. It would take really soft and smooth groomers to leave trenches with the BG.) Skiing it in steep bumps and cut-up goo at BBI16 seemed to be no problem. Felt plenty stable. I liked it better than the blizzard gunsmoke and atomic automatic. Didn't wish for any changes such as a narrower width or shorter length.

    Don't over think this. If you like the idea of ON3P as a company or brand or whatever, and want a pow ski that can handle a variety of conditions, buy billygoats. If you are wondering what size you should get and worried about turning, buy the 184/186 length. Those who want/need a 191 already know that they do.

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