ATK raider 14 DIN binding

**smooth operator** · 04-15-2016, 06:01 AM

aight, thanks!
that sounds like significantly less than any radical, which always was too much for me. Gettin more stoked on this binding by the day.

Although / Just out of curiosity, is there a standardised way to measure the ramp? are most published (e.g. wildsnow, skimo) values measured at the pins, or below the sole of the boots? As a rockered vs. non rockered boot can make a big difference, i've always struggled to compare between different measurement series.

**Lindahl** · 04-15-2016, 06:45 AM

'Center of pin height to topsheet' are subtracted from each other. Completely boot independent measurement.

**smooth operator** · 04-15-2016, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Lindahl

'Center of pin height to topsheet' are subtracted from each other. Completely boot independent measurement.

great, that gives me something to compare my measurements against. Gracias!

**JRainey** · 06-29-2016, 02:04 PM

What's the consensus on bindings with heel no gap, and rearward spring travel?

Do they perform any better in power transfer to the heel? Or does the stomp block give you most of the advantage there?

Just considering this years vs next years.

**Lindahl** · 06-29-2016, 07:22 PM

The springs in all these bindings are designed to improve vertical release characteristics by maintaining proper pin depth while the ski is flexing. Its not used to improve power and response. My results from AB testing that I've done is consistent with this opinion.

**JRainey** · 06-29-2016, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by Lindahl

The springs in all these bindings are designed to improve vertical release characteristics by maintaining proper pin depth while the ski is flexing. Its not used to improve power and response. My results from AB testing that I've done is consistent with this opinion.

So I can send it bigger?

**Lindahl** · 06-29-2016, 10:07 PM

Not sure about that, but there doesn't seem to be any improvement in power and response. Perhaps elasticity is more important though, for sending it? (which the spring doesn't improve)

I will say that actual forces, based on personally conducting torque tests, involved in tech binding release are all across the map for the manufacturers, despite RV numbers. Trial and error here is still highly suggested, imo.

I've also heard alpine bindings are highly variable as well. Acceptable ranges for DIN ratings are quite wide, and they still fail here and there. I haven't personally tested or looked into those, however.

**JRainey** · 06-30-2016, 01:20 AM

I guess my thought was that if "vertical release characteristics" are improved, that means I won't pop out when I stomp my 4 pointers.

But if no elasticity improvement, or power improvement, seems like the old ones will be fine.

**Lindahl** · 06-30-2016, 01:23 AM

Originally Posted by JRainey

I guess my thought was that if "vertical release characteristics" are improved, that means I won't pop out when I stomp my 4 pointers.

But if no elasticity improvement, or power improvement, seems like the old ones will be fine.

That could improve. Depends on what kinds of parameters played into your releases. If excessive ski flexing, then possibly. If its just normal forward (vertical) forces in play, probably not (thats what its usually been for me).

**auvgeek** · 06-30-2016, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by JRainey

What's the consensus on bindings with heel no gap, and rearward spring travel?

Do they perform any better in power transfer to the heel? Or does the stomp block give you most of the advantage there?

Just considering this years vs next years.

Another thing to consider is that consensus among the hardcore users I've spoken with—guys who ski hard on tech bindings and do it every day of the season—is that the modern "gapless" AT bindings with fwd pressure (except maybe the Kingpin; we didn't discuss that binding specifically) develop noticeable slop over time.

I need a pair of new binders for the ZeroG 108, and it's down to this year's ATK Raider 14 or the Kingpin. Weight vs power transfer.

**JRainey** · 06-30-2016, 12:27 PM

Same dilemma here. They're similarly priced on sale here too.

Was fully in kingpin camp, now I'm edging toward the raider.

Good to know about the slop.

**auvgeek** · 06-30-2016, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by JRainey

Was fully in kingpin camp, now I'm edging toward the raider.

Yeah, I kinda did the opposite. Where'd you find the Raider 14 on sale?

Also: I've had issues with the Plum heel sliding backwards in the track—after a while, no amount of vibratite or locktite seems to hold the binding in the same place on the track, and you need to put a solid spacer in there. The Raider 14 uses a similar mechanism for setting the gap (though two more screws). So I was thinking about mounting without the track/bottom plate. Anybody tried this? Seems like it'd also reduce the heel-toe delta, eliminating the need to shim the toes. Only major downside I see is the lack of stomp block compatibility. Well, that and the annoyance of mounting and maybe needing to find new screws.

**JRainey** · 06-30-2016, 04:24 PM

Search on google.de and go to shopping. I don't know if any of them ship to NA. I'm in the alps.

I only took one run on the kingpins at OR, and the advantage was obvious.

I've been rocking plums and radi-plums since 2011 and they've treated me pretty well. The plum heel pins are pretty sloppy though. I've only had the heel track slip once.

I'm fine with retention on that setup, but the alpine like feel of the kingpins has me jonesing. I guess in my mind the ATK heel block would give theoretically the same power through the tail. The kingpin gets it from the heel pressing down on the heel afd too. Obviously without the benefit of vertical elasticity.

Edit: Just checking shopping, the cheaper one I saw are sold out and possibly didn't have the heel blocks.

**smooth operator** · 07-01-2016, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by JRainey

Search on google.de and go to shopping. I don't know if any of them ship to NA. I'm in the alps.

Edit: Just checking shopping, the cheaper one I saw are sold out and possibly didn't have the heel blocks.

hmm, would that be a certain German online retailer with black and yellow logo? I just received an email i wont be receiving the raider14 i ordered there cause they are sold out.

Bummer.

**Lindahl** · 07-01-2016, 08:35 AM

auvgeek - the slop you've mentioned is news to me, do you have any more info on what binding, how much slop, and how long it took to develop?

(though I do have a buddy who sends it on Radicals and loves the 1.0 and isn't as stoked on the 2.0, can't remember why, but I think its retention and a spring issue - skis for Dynafit, so has to be on the new one)

FWIW, I'll probably be selling my Raider 14s at some point soon. No stomp block, but I think you can order those separately?

**Jonathan S.** · 07-01-2016, 09:05 AM

Hagan plans to distribute the Raider in the U.S. for this coming season. I don't know about the pricing though.

**auvgeek** · 07-01-2016, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by Lindahl

auvgeek - the slop you've mentioned is news to me, do you have any more info on what binding, how much slop, and how long it took to develop?

Radical 2.0, Beast, and Vipec were the ones specifically mentioned, but they basically said any current tech binding with forward pressure...though I'm not sure if they include the Kingpin in that because of the different heel mechanism. I think they were talking about 50-100 days, and enough slop to be noticeable when skiing.

This info is from a small group of guys I met in Cham who ski just about every day and, by my estimation, get after it just about as hard as anyone I know. They regularly ski YFYD lines and have to trust their bindings, so they're very picky. They also refuse to ski the Vipec (including the black version) because of pre-release issues.

**Lindahl** · 07-01-2016, 06:37 PM

Get after it hard or ski hard? Those are two very different things in my experience.

(ie did you watch them ski or is this based on lines they've skied)

**thecazdog** · 07-01-2016, 11:44 PM

I've spent a bit of time on the ATK FR14, and have to say that it is an outstanding tech binding. It's well made, durable, and works extremely well. The weight is also super low, the toe retention is excellent, and the heel spacer gives you the option of being able to get more direct connection to your ski. The only disadvantages I've found is that the brake is a bit wimpy, and the wide mounting pattern doesn't work for some skis.

I've also just started to ski on a pair of ATK Raider 12 2.0 bindings (for thinner, ski mountaineering applications). They have been excellent so far. Not sure how much of a difference the new spring in the heel makes, but again I've been impressed with the build quality and outstanding function of the binding. Happy to share more after I've had more time on them.

**retirwntm** · 07-02-2016, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Jonathan S.

Hagan plans to distribute the Raider in the U.S. for this coming season. I don't know about the pricing though.

Nice ^^^

**plugboots** · 07-02-2016, 03:43 PM

I'm considering getting new bindings to put on my new Praxis and the Raider 12s seem like a really good candidate. They're actually lighter than the speed turns I was going to get, and not that I want brakes, but why not?
The delta is more flat also, correct?

Oooooo, maybe not:

**Lindahl** · 07-02-2016, 05:37 PM

Hagan's distribution may bring the price down (that price is with VAT btw), but it'll still be Plum-level pricing.

**plugboots** · 07-02-2016, 10:02 PM

I figured that in. Maybe skifishbum knows a guy, who knows a guy who...

**Jonathan S.** · 07-02-2016, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Lindahl

Hagan's distribution may bring the price down (that price is with VAT btw), but it'll still be Plum-level pricing.

Plum Guide is currently $400 w/o brakes, $470 with:
http://skimo.co/plum-guide-bindings
Yak is $460/$530:
http://skimo.co/plum-yak-bindings

**angrysasquatch** · 07-02-2016, 11:03 PM

Ever since I turned up the DIN on my RT's to 10 (max), I can't help but notice it turns one way easier than the other out of ski mode. Both are hard as hell to turn, to the point I think I'm putting a bit of damage into something with every spin. I'm thinking it could probably use a lube to smooth things out. Anybody ever disassembled one? Back off the lat release all the way and the guts come out? Does anybody know what the weak point was that convinced La Sportiva to stop distributing them (due to apparently many warranty claims)?