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  1. #5051
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    The problem with a 'propped up economy':

    Attachment 377580
    Let's be clear, I'm not rooting for society to collapse. I'm hoping for a course correction. Society has major problems that need fixing.

    This is one of my favorite pieces on what I'm referring to by using the term "propped up economy." You all can read it and maybe learn something. Or you can just post memes and accuse me of being unwaveringly obtuse some more. Your call.

    https://allenfarrington.medium.com/t...m-5ed0a9d5dfa9


    This is basically the tl;dr because I know most of you won't spend 30 minutes reading an article.

    https://twitter.com/allenf32/status/...302523904?s=19

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  2. #5052
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    BITCOIN WILL SAVE THE WORLD.
    http://www.firsttracksonline.com

    I wish i could be like SkiFishBum

  3. #5053
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    lol @ 'learn something.' The irony is debates revolving around money are timeless. The mistake bitcoiners make in rediscovering these age old debates is believing a world exists where there are no tradeoffs.

    The absurd belief held by early-adopters that prices only go up, if true, makes crypto unsuitable as a medium of exchange or as a unit of account. You only get a store of value if that happens.

    Think of money as three vertices of a triangle pulling in different directions: economic activity (exchange), capital (value), or GDP (unit of account). If you constrain supply to preserve value then money's usefulness for exchange is hurt and people lose their jobs. Money only fuels commerce if it is also growing itself but too much or too little are also problematic.

    Even if bitcoin solves for inflation it bounces around so violently that functioning as a 'store of value' is impossible. So the question becomes which do you value more: a smooth rise in prices or a volatile deflationary speculative assert. The most important thing to realize is neither one solves for the other.

    Money is an asset, a currency, and a unit of account all rolled into one, torn in different directions by each of its roles.

  4. #5054
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalefish3169 View Post
    I wish you well too. However, you don't get BTC's value proposition because (I surmise) you come from a position of immense financial privilege that you don't realize you have, nor do most other North Americans.

    I don't think printing an infinite amount of money that largely goes to the already rich is good for the planet. It devalues the money earned from people's labor and props up an economy premised upon endless growth and consumption sustained by artificially low interest rates.

    Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
    Come on man….Bitcoin will not benefit anyone who doesn’t already own Bitcoin (and has for a while) or does not have the capital to acquire it.

    Bitcoin growth from here on out is primarily the rich getting richer, along with a few hodlers with a lower cost basis.

  5. #5055
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    lol @ 'learn something.' The irony is debates revolving around money are timeless. The mistake bitcoiners make in rediscovering these age old debates is believing a world exists where there are no tradeoffs.

    The absurd belief held by early-adopters that prices only go up, if true, makes crypto unsuitable as a medium of exchange or as a unit of account. You only get a store of value if that happens.

    Think of money as three vertices of a triangle pulling in different directions: economic activity (exchange), capital (value), or GDP (unit of account). If you constrain supply to preserve value then money's usefulness for exchange is hurt and people lose their jobs. Money only fuels commerce if it is also growing itself but too much or too little are also problematic.

    Even if bitcoin solves for inflation it bounces around so violently that functioning as a 'store of value' is impossible. So the question becomes which do you value more: a smooth rise in prices or a volatile deflationary speculative assert. The most important thing to realize is neither one solves for the other.

    Money is an asset, a currency, and a unit of account all rolled into one, torn in different directions by each of its roles.
    Agreed.

    I think longer term btc can be that alternate currency, a store of value. But it may take decades to find that level. To find “par”. Took gold 5000 years (but no internet) to find a level.

    Right now it’s an investment, for better or worse. Not sure why 50k would be a suitable price target. Or 30k. Or 100k. Who fucking knows. If you throw out a price target, you are guessing just like anyone else.
    Decisions Decisions

  6. #5056
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    I think we can agree that mining went into a speculative bubble, maybe worse than the price bubble when you consider hodl outlay vs mining outlay. A lot (most?) of the speculative mining outlay was conducted with borrowed money and when/if that money comes due then I suppose bitcoin and hardware will be sold or mothballed. The late buyers will either have to wait years to roi or capitulate and maybe go bankrupt.

    So from a mining perspective, maybe this supports some people's idea that the cycle will have two peaks, the one at 65k and then another at some later point.

    Could Chinese govt or various actors already have all this figured out, seems like they don't miss a beat too often on economics? Do they care about the bitcoin ecosytem anyway? /rhetorical

    Hashrates could continue to decline due to weaker hardware and more expensive electric rates no longer participating in the network. Mining bubble burst. Personally I would just like two of those s19pro units, will be watching prices. The next question in all of this is when 5nm? I think Bitmain is already working on it, can't quite remember.
    Live each season as it passes; breathe the air, drink the drink, taste the fruit, and resign yourself to the influences of each.
    Henry David Thoreau

  7. #5057
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalefish3169 View Post
    Funny that you claim my views don't hold up to scientific rigor when cryptocurrency is the culmination of thousands of years of math, science, and technology.
    There you went off the rail...instantly: Your view of cryptocurrency and cryptocurrency are totally, utterly, different thing. If you fail to see that difference, I honestly dont know what to say... That take is just...baffling.

    Quote Originally Posted by stalefish3169 View Post
    I'm also constantly reassessing my investment thesis as I seek out and gain more knowledge. Over time that has made me gravitate more and more towards BTC. This strategy may not come across clearly in this thread. However, I've literally spent thousands of hours researching the history of money, crytpo, etc.
    Good if you have read a lot, the main question is if your reading has critical. Through your posts it does not come across that way as many of the posted links/references are of very dubious quality, obvious bias or directly from individuals & institutions with direct, vested interests. None (?) of the links that you have posted (if they are supposed to act as a frame of reference for your reading) come across even remotely critical towards the phenomena or fulfil standards applied in research.

    Quote Originally Posted by stalefish3169 View Post
    My investment moves are for the long-term, not the near future.
    Again, good for you! But you do realise that the initial premise that most cryptos has promised (stability, growth, security) has gone out of the window just as many has predicted? There is now a systemic, or even existential risk, with cryptos as the nation states are turning against them from various reasons: Political, economical, ecological and ideological.

    When one is hedging bets against actions NationStatesTM...well...good luck..

    The floggings will continue until morale improves.

  8. #5058
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    Quote Originally Posted by shera View Post

    Could Chinese govt or various actors already have all this figured out, seems like they don't miss a beat too often on economics? Do they care about the bitcoin ecosytem anyway? /rhetorical
    Take from an acquaintance of mine: China (or more accurately CPC) used BTC as research vessel, to see what kind of shape it would take. Like what kind of new social / economical systems would emerge, resiliency of the underlying infra (computational/physical). Basically use it as a petridish or a research project. Now The Party has gathered enough data to continue their Long March and the project is considered as nuisance and a risk. The party is preparing for their 100th Birthday and it does not want any kind of surprises anymore, so mining taking stressing the electric grid during summertime is just a risk they are not interested in.

    So : ByeBye Version 1.0 and stay tuned for the party approved 2.0.

    The floggings will continue until morale improves.

  9. #5059
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyCarter View Post
    Come on man….Bitcoin will not benefit anyone who doesn’t already own Bitcoin (and has for a while) or does not have the capital to acquire it.

    Bitcoin growth from here on out is primarily the rich getting richer, along with a few hodlers with a lower cost basis.
    You should try listening to this and then think about what you just typed.

    https://open.spotify.com/episode/5rO...nk&dl_branch=1

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  10. #5060
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meathelmet View Post
    Take from an acquaintance of mine: China (or more accurately CPC) used BTC as research vessel, to see what kind of shape it would take. Like what kind of new social / economical systems would emerge, resiliency of the underlying infra (computational/physical). Basically use it as a petridish or a research project. Now The Party has gathered enough data to continue their Long March and the project is considered as nuisance and a risk. The party is preparing for their 100th Birthday and it does not want any kind of surprises anymore, so mining taking stressing the electric grid during summertime is just a risk they are not interested in.

    So : ByeBye Version 1.0 and stay tuned for the party approved 2.0.
    Let me get this straight. A regime with an absolutely horrible track record on human rights realized they can't control a decentralized network and is abandoning it. And you're saying this is a bad thing?

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  11. #5061
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidog View Post
    Tell me what happens if the whole internet goes dark? Those bitcoins (and fiat) will be worth piss....gold? Not so much.
    Uhh... you realize if the internet goes dark we're just completely fucked regardless of crypto and there'd be complete chaos, right? What a strange argument.
    I ski 135 degree chutes switch to the road.

  12. #5062
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Money only fuels commerce if it is also growing itself but too much or too little are also problematic.
    So where does printing 20%+ of the M2 money supply in one year fall on this spectrum?


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  13. #5063
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    We're going to find out. The danger is real. So far the United States has weathered the pandemic better than most thanks to the Fed but that doesn't mean we won't see higher than expected inflation. But it's not as simple as saying the M2 or whatever money machine go brrrrrrr and then conclude out of control inflation is invertible.

    Nobody is really sure where it will go. If the Fed manages to contain average PCE growth between 1.8% to 2.2% over the course of the decade and a PCE level of around 135 in 2030 that would probably count as success for the Fed’s AIT (Average Inflation Targeting) policy.

  14. #5064
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalefish3169 View Post
    Let me get this straight. A regime with an absolutely horrible track record on human rights realized they can't control a decentralized network and is abandoning it. And you're saying this is a bad thing?
    There you go again, Direction Tangent. I merely stated that, to paraphrase you, "A regime with an absolutely horrible track record on human rights realized they can't control a decentralized network and is abandoning it."

    The motives do not matter, causalities do. I am merely stating the facts (to the best of my knowledge) how events are currently unfolding and pondering the ramifications on larger scale. I have no direct economical interests in the matter at hand, but a lot of direct interests regarding economy, human rights, geopolitics, security, democracy and especially ecology/sustainability.

    The floggings will continue until morale improves.

  15. #5065
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    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeJ View Post
    Uhh... you realize if the internet goes dark we're just completely fucked regardless of crypto and there'd be complete chaos, right? What a strange argument.
    Of course, but when the dust settled, which it would, do you think a Bitcoin or gold would be worth more?

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    I wish i could be like SkiFishBum

  16. #5066
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidog View Post
    Of course, but when the dust settled, which it would, do you think a Bitcoin or gold would be worth more?

    Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using TGR Forums mobile app
    Doge.

  17. #5067
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidog View Post
    Of course, but when the dust settled, which it would, do you think a Bitcoin or gold would be worth more?

    Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using TGR Forums mobile app
    Bitcoin is lustrous, malleable and extremely conductive. Bitcoin can be used as a coating that is 1 atom thin, isn't reactive with tissues, is soluble and is reflective. Bitcoin has a history of 5,000 years of being valuable. And they will need lots to pave the streets with it in heaven. AND it is gold colored. The mascot looks like a sweet pretzel-like Chinese desert treat baked into the visage of a three-toed bear -- probably the only thing it doesn't have going for it.

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    edit: Screw that. Dogecoin over both of them any day. Much cuter mascot. Less pollution. Faster. Cheaper. More memes. Much wow!
    OH, MY GAWD! ―John Hillerman  Big Billie Eilish fan.
    But that's a quibble to what PG posted (at first, anyway, I haven't read his latest book) ―jono
    we are not arguing about ski boots or fashionable clothing or spageheti O's which mean nothing in the grand scheme ― XXX-er

  18. #5068
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalefish3169 View Post
    You should try listening to this and then think about what you just typed.

    https://open.spotify.com/episode/5rO...nk&dl_branch=1

    Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
    And you should read the criticism of that, some of which has already been posted in this thread. But you dismissed those facts as “racist”, because it fit your narrative.

    You take podcasts and articles written by parties with vested interests as gospel and disregard anything coming from other sources, which is why everyone is taking about confirmation bias.

  19. #5069
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidog View Post
    Of course, but when the dust settled, which it would, do you think a Bitcoin or gold would be worth more?
    Uh, neither would be relevant in that scenario, most likely. Which is why it was a silly argument in the first place.
    I ski 135 degree chutes switch to the road.

  20. #5070
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    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeJ View Post
    Uh, neither would be relevant in that scenario, most likely. Which is why it was a silly argument in the first place.
    you dont think the practice of "trade" would return? We know the worth and need of gold.

    ETA: I mean the worth of gold in building needed infrastructure to begin rebuilding.
    Last edited by Skidog; 06-21-2021 at 03:29 PM.
    http://www.firsttracksonline.com

    I wish i could be like SkiFishBum

  21. #5071
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    ^^ i carry 5/7k of gold and silver and the means to protect it if shit should go sideways

    Click image for larger version. 

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    crypto space getting hammered today, great firesale prices if you believe in the space, "see i told ya" if not

    tiime will tell!

  22. #5072
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    This guy is hilarious


  23. #5073
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    stalefish3169

    total outsiders perspective here.....you're straight delusional. Like, fucking clownshoes, man

  24. #5074
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gez View Post
    stalefish3169

    total outsiders perspective here.....you're straight delusional. Like, fucking clownshoes, man
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TkF...ature=youtu.be

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  25. #5075
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gez View Post
    stalefish3169

    total outsiders perspective here.....you're straight delusional. Like, fucking clownshoes, man
    I lurk this thread and tbh I don't know who is more delusional; stalefish or all the people who argue with him thinking that they can change his perspective or engage in rational dialogue. best to just leave this space as the corner of the asylum where stalefish and PG can smear shit all over each other's naked bodies and then lick it off, as they seem to enjoy it. don't feed their voyeurism kink too.

    my grandpa's last words were "never wrestle with a pig. you'll both get dirty, but the pig'll actually enjoy it".

    (I got into crypto late and am hodling at a cost basis of $36k but I've always viewed it as a digital lottery ticket, not as the new gold)

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