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  1. #6401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    But why? This is a solution in search of a problem. Do we really have a large problem with amendable, unenforceable promises that will be solved by this? I get the lather, but for the life of me I canít see how it moves any needle in a very meaningful way. Useful, perhaps. Game changing? What game, exactly?
    We currently have a legacy system that takes 3+ business days for many types of domestic payments to clear and our boy is over here like, "What problem needs to be solved?"

    Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

  2. #6402
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalefish3169 View Post
    We currently have a legacy system that takes 3+ business days for many types of domestic payments to clear and our boy is over here like, "What problem needs to be solved?"

    Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk
    It doesnít take 3 days, and thereís no reason it should.

  3. #6403
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    It doesnít take 3 days, and thereís no reason it should.
    Correct.

    Also, what does that have to do with NFT contracts?
    focus.

  4. #6404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    But why? This is a solution in search of a problem. Do we really have a large problem with amendable, unenforceable promises that will be solved by this? I get the lather, but for the life of me I can’t see how it moves any needle in a very meaningful way. Useful, perhaps. Game changing? What game, exactly?
    It's extremely simple to code into a smart contract that any transfer of ownership of a token kicks a residual to the creator. That is pretty powerful for the creator. And it's for perpetuity on the chain. Whether it be a piece of music, art, or a ticket to an event where the seller gets a kickback on any subsequent transfers.
    Is it radix panax notoginseng? - splat

  5. #6405
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    Bitcoin....who's gotten into it?

    I get thatÖand for capitalizing on rich people or enthusiasts who want to own something ďauthenticĒ I see how you can create and profit from scarcity. Itís not going to force payment for something that somebody was previously unwilling to pay for, though. It just creates a new thing in an enthusiast market. A certificate of authenticity. Neat. I guess. But outside of maximizing things that already enjoyed scarcity (seats/entrance to a concert, for example) I donít get how it can revolutionize anything.

    Me not getting it doesnít mean anything, to be sure.
    focus.

  6. #6406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    I get thatÖand for rich people or enthusiasts who want to own something ďauthenticĒ I see how you can create and profit from scarcity. Itís not going to force payment for something that somebody was previously unwilling to pay for, though. It just creates a new thing in an enthusiast market. A certificate of authenticity. Neat. I guess. But outside of maximizing things that already enjoyed scarcity (seats/entrance to a concert, for example) I donít get how it can revolutionize anything.

    Me not getting it doesnít mean anything, to be sure.
    droit de suite (artists resale right, the relevant part for here is the royalty collected) has existed in France for ~100 years now, and Europe for close to 20. Thereís a fair bit of literature on it and contra to claims above, itís tended to favor better off /great artists at the expense of younger/merely good artists.

  7. #6407
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    But why? This is a solution in search of a problem. Do we really have a large problem with amendable, unenforceable promises that will be solved by this? I get the lather, but for the life of me I can’t see how it moves any needle in a very meaningful way. Useful, perhaps. Game changing? What game, exactly?
    Too many things for me to answer from all sides but here's some use-cases I can see now and without stretching my mind too far into esoterica

    - Setting up a LP or a corporation with shareholders agreements to buy apartment block. Cost may be $ 10k+ & admin/accounting may be $10k per annum. Pulling numbers out of a hat here because I don't do RE and it varies greatly from place to place. Let's say $10M with annual revs of $ 1M and annual net of $500K. Use a DAO (basically a chat room with a bank account and smart contracts enforcing the DAO governance rules. Use some tokens to distribute "dividends"/"yield" and cost is much more less.

    - Artist mints and sells NFTs. Edit Makers already pointed this out but artist can put a 10% or whatever they want residual on this. Artist gets one-time payment. Artist gets royalty stream. Replaced are agents, distribution agencies etc. Dunfree already pointed out there are artist coops (France, UK, CH has it too fyi) so it's not unique. However, costs drop more from the usual 20 - 55% (agency/coop fees are super variable)

  8. #6408
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    Bitcoin....who's gotten into it?

    Iím not arguing, but I still donít really get it. The first only has utility if nobody trusts each other (or are you saying that the accounting function will be completely obviated by an NFT contract?) and the second only has utility if anybody has any interest in what theyíre making/selling/playing. And theyíll only know that if the artist gets exposure. This addresses the compensation utility (in a really narrow way... The token might be non fungible, but the image/song/whatever is the same as it was before NFT). I fail to see how it addresses anything else important when it comes to monetizing art, music, etc.

    What am I missing or getting wrong, there?
    focus.

  9. #6409
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    I’m not arguing, but I still don’t really get it. The first only has utility if nobody trusts each other (or are you saying that the accounting function will be completely obviated by an NFT contract?) and the second only has utility if anybody has any interest in what they’re making/selling/playing. And they’ll only know that if the artist gets exposure. This addresses the compensation utility (in a really narrow way... The token might be non fungible, but the image/song/whatever is the same as it was before NFT). I fail to see how it addresses anything else important when it comes to monetizing art, music, etc.

    What am I missing or getting wrong, there?
    In the first one, you now solve the jurisdiction, trust, contract enforcement cost, contract negotiation issue. Accounting is also solved via automated functions. Bookkeeping will be local but audits will be via multi-signature updated in real time crypto wallet.

    EDIT - say you're from the Philippines but live in NorAm and you like an opportunity in PH. The investible world expands.

    Re the second one. Dunfree and I already discussed the needs part and we agree it benefits those who make something of value (trite I know); so you and I are aligned in not quite getting that world. But to people who value intangible collectibles these do have value and make them have transaction values. Just because you and I don't understand that world of ascribed value doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The smart contract then makes it possible to have transactions, account for transactions and hive off bits of that transaction to parties down the chain

  10. #6410
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    Bitcoin....who's gotten into it?

    The only accounting function solved is when it comes to shareholder distribution, though. Thatís a pretty tiny part of the overall accounting burden. Agreed that it can all be automated, but thereís nothing special about NFT here.

    The international investment is a cool angle, but the NFT can only enforce what it sees. Your hypothetical $1M of revenues is still entirely predicated on trust that all revenues are actually being accounted for in whatever blockchain is being used, or that all expenses are legitimate and appropriately bid, or that local regulations/taxes are being handled appropriately, and I donít see any obvious means that would provide visibility outside of the blockchain environment, itís just a massive false sense of security. Without regulation or third party audit or being local, you still donít know whatís going on in your PH investment property outside of the inputs being plugged in locally. I can see how itís a tool, but I canít see how itís any more than that and Iím still at a loss that it portends anything particularly disruptive or game changing, whatever game that is (accounting software? Thatís a small gameÖ. And it doesnít get bigger when you private label it with a blockchain).

    Honestly, and this sounds more incendiary than I mean it, it feels like the only game this is really changing is pulling things like apartment building investments into the crypto pyramid scheme. Which would explain some of the fervor around NFT.

    ETA: I freely acknowledge that I donít have to understand something for it to exist or be good or successful. Most of my friends donít really understand my passion for skiing. But for whole economies and industries to shift such a thing needs to be built on something that can be explained and understood, and that isnít evidenced in any of this discussion here.

    Also ETA: I completely support building cool new paradigms even if we donít understand how they might be truly useful in the future in a meaningful way. If thatís all weíre talking about, cool, letís nerd out. But I get puzzled when proponents try to tell me weíre already there.
    focus.

  11. #6411
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    Just because you can't understand it, don't blame the very straightforward explanations you have received.
    Is it radix panax notoginseng? - splat

  12. #6412
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    Bitcoin....who's gotten into it?

    Quote Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark View Post
    Just because you can't understand it, don't blame the very straightforward explanations you have received.
    Iím not blaming the explanations, Iím expressing doubt because the explanations kind of suck. How many times have we heard in this thread that people study this shit like itís their job just to understand whatís going on? YeahÖthat feels like a pretty light thread to hang economic change on.

    Here, though, Iím just doubting that NFTs are going to change the world in any meaningful way, even if they become ubiquitous. We claim that weíre at the head of a paradigm shift that will pick new winners and losers but we canít explain any incentives that donít rely on operating anonymously and/or outside of established regulatory and taxation structures.

    I donít believe in your dystopian anarchic prediction of the future, and if it does come to pass I kinda think the digital world is one of the first things to go, and anything that relies on that digital world to build value is going to be hard pressed to justify ANY resource needs to be sustained. But thatís just blind pontificating.
    Last edited by Mustonen; 12-03-2021 at 12:40 PM.
    focus.

  13. #6413
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    The funny thing about NFTs is when comes to art is they are more transparent and auditable than the current art market, not less. Look at the chain and you can find someone doing wash sales with their nft, you can trace what wallet holds the nft, this is all much easier than the current art market. And from the perspective of at least some art market participants, thatís not a good thing.

  14. #6414
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    I never made any predictions, and most of the current use cases for nfts don't impress me, but you can bury your head in the sand and it won't bother me one bit.
    Is it radix panax notoginseng? - splat

  15. #6415
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    Bitcoin....who's gotten into it?

    Quote Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark View Post
    I never made any predictions, and most of the current use cases for nfts don't impress me, but you can bury your head in the sand and it won't bother me one bit.
    Well, Iím not doing that either. Iím in here asking questions Ďn shit.
    focus.

  16. #6416
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    Questions arenít allowed. Criticism is not allowed. Just hair trigger butt hurt ďFUD!Ē anguish anytime someone dares question anything.

    This NFT discussion is interesting except for the butt hurt.

  17. #6417
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    I think the only thing that LL and I have provided are very clear explanations of the current and imagined possible use cases for NFTs. Nothing more.

    Certainly not "a dystopian anarchic prediction of the future".

    I own 3 NFT's, and they have nothing to do with art or music.

    And when you come in with such a perspective as the following, "it feels like the only game this is really changing is pulling things like apartment building investments into the crypto pyramid scheme", you have intellectually already shot yourself in the foot.
    Is it radix panax notoginseng? - splat

  18. #6418
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    Bitcoin....who's gotten into it?

    Quote Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark View Post
    I think the only thing that LL and I have provided are very clear explanations of the current and imagined possible use cases for NFTs. Nothing more.

    Certainly not "a dystopian anarchic prediction of the future".

    I own 3 NFT's, and they have nothing to do with art or music.
    Sorry. You didnít predict that. I was projecting because it was fun based on:

    The underpinnings for most of this relies on anonymity or on evading regulations or taxation. Or all of the above. For that to go mainstream, that feels like the world stops working. Cheerleaders for that would then be relying on the world economies to continue to generate enough surplus to support systems that create $650K digital yachts. Seems like a bad bet, and it all feels very dystopian and anarchic.

    I think itís all beanie babies and ways to certify beanie babies. I can square with permanent beanie babies in my economy, too, but I canít square with it being more than that. And Iím trying to because I know seemingly smart people who believe just that.
    focus.

  19. #6419
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    Bitcoin....who's gotten into it?

    Quote Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark View Post

    And when you come in with such a perspective as the following, "it feels like the only game this is really changing is pulling things like apartment building investments into the crypto pyramid scheme", you have intellectually already shot yourself in the foot.
    I intellectually shot myself in the foot (not sure what that means, but Iíll give you the benefit of the doubt that itís bad or exposed me somehow) by pointing out that NFTs seem to be a way to pull certain contracts into the pyramidic crypto ecosystem rather than NFTs being a way to revolutionize contracts? That right there is my favorite hot take of the day, though, and it perfectly explains the slobbering being given NFTs by all the crypto blogs.
    focus.

  20. #6420
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    I intellectually shot myself in the foot (not sure what that means, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that it’s bad or exposed me somehow) by pointing out that NFTs seem to be a way to pull certain contracts into the pyramidic crypto ecosystem rather than NFTs being a way to revolutionize contracts? That right there is my favorite hot take of the day, though, and it perfectly explains the slobbering being given NFTs by all the crypto blogs.
    Nice pivot from pyramid scheme to ecosystem. NFT's are assets, pure and simple. They are a tokenization of a thing on a block chain.

    They can represent anything. They strictly proscribe ownership of something, in any scale, to anything. How you choose to use them is up to your imagination.

    The future will all be about tokenization of everything from your identity and reputation, to your property, relationships, etc. and blockchain is just an immutable ledger.
    Is it radix panax notoginseng? - splat

  21. #6421
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    Well that’s not a shitty dystopian hell scape.

    also an indictment of the blindness of coinbros. Magical token don’t mean shit if it’s garbage in.

  22. #6422
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    Well that’s not a shitty dystopian hell scape.
    Be the change you want to see.
    Is it radix panax notoginseng? - splat

  23. #6423
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    FTR I'm enjoying this back and forth with you Mustonen. It's (partly) my job to think through this. And I'll also freely admit I can't and have not thought through every use case, every problem or whether there is solution to the problem. Will try to rejoin later

  24. #6424
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    Well that’s not a shitty dystopian hell scape.

    also an indictment of the blindness of coinbros. Magical token don’t mean shit if it’s garbage in.
    I think you fundamentally do not understand the difference between a coin, a currency, and a token.
    Is it radix panax notoginseng? - splat

  25. #6425
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark View Post
    I think you fundamentally do not understand the difference between a coin, a currency, and a token.
    i think you make sweeping bullshit statements because you can’t substantively rebut points. You’ve got your religion of credentialism but call it “tokens and blockchain”

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